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Crazy Bible Stories

You are trying to make, or maybe believe, that QM (which you obviously know diddly-squat about) supports some sort of mystical belief you hold. It doesn't. The fact that you don't understand doesn't mean that it is magic... it only means you don't understand.

Erm.. no. That what you maintain I believe. I'm not a fan of the QMT. I used to be interested some years ago. I'm saying we won't get anywhere at this moment with this branch of physics.

If so, then you would do yourself a favor by not referring to QM in trying to make future arguments. Such strange hand-waving attempts you have been making only demonstrate your ignorance of the subject.
 
I think I mentioned to explore the other sciences. The tangible things we can observe and debate or discuss. I merely reply back to what is posted to me, the best way I can.

Handwaiving is not my response (if it seems that way to you).
 
I don't understand the logic. How does one experiment and come to conclusiions with divinity and Christ in the lab? Physics, regardless how far we have reached in this field , requires an actual specimen/ subject for study itself.
No, it doesn't. We know ALL possible interactions with matter on human scales; So we know that there cannot be any unknown interactions.

If there were interventions by the divine, these could only occur via one of the four known forces, all of which we would easily detect. In this case, absence of evidence IS evidence of absence - indeed, it's proof of absence.
Gravitational theory doesn't tell you about the beyond classical physics - Quantum theory has never had a subject/ specimen of a divinity (to know what it is) to base the erroneus claim for proof.
Again, no such subject is needed. And classical physics WORKS - except in extreme cases that don't apply to human scales. Equally, Quantum Field Theory WORKS - no new theory will change its effectiveness AT HUMAN SCALES.
A creator god isn't impossible - just useless, as it fails to answer the question "Why is there something rather than nothing?" which it purports to address.

Thats a question both sides could ask.
But the answer "something made it" isn't an answer to the question, and only one side recognises that (while the other ties itself into pretzels of special pleading, trying to exempt gods from being 'something'".
But the idea that a creator implies, by its failure to be provably non-existent, that other traits associated by Christians with their god are also not disproven, is nonsensical.

YOUR god cannot exist. That's been proven to be true; Just as rocks that fall upwards have been proven not to exist. That a 'set and forget' creator god cannot be proven not to exist doesn't change that fact one iota.


It may seem like QT is your best argument (imo getting no-where). Lets put physics aside I say in general - for the moment at least- since it tells us zilch, BUT rather ... let us work with what we do have tangible in the bio-chemistry, archelological and historric areas!!

Physics underlies all of those fields. Let's not "put physics aside" - it tells us everything we know. You might as well say "let's put reality aside". :rolleyes:

In fact, it very much seems that you are. Your implication that Jesus, as a divine entity, might not be accurately described as 'on a human scale', shows just how far out of your depth you are; The 'scale' in question isn't some metaphysical idea, it's exactly what is says - it refers to physical size. As I thought I made clear earlier, 'human scale' in my argument means 'bigger than an atom, but smaller than a galaxy'. Christ most assuredly wasn't larger than the planet Earth, nor did his disciples require a magnifying glass to see him, so he is a human scale phenomenon - about the size of a human.

And far more importantly, those with whom he was alleged to interact were human-sized. Not galactic sized, or atom sized, but somewhere in between. Objects at that scale interact ONLY with the four forces of the Standard Model. This is known, because mass/energy equivalence means that if any other forces existed at that scale, we would have seen an equivalent force carrying particle in our particle accelerators. And we haven't.

No sample of the divine is required to test divine interactions with matter - just an exhaustive list of all interactions matter can have with anything. We have such a list. There are four (and only four) such interactions at human scales. Divine interactions are impossible, unless they use one of those four forces, in which case they would be very easily detected.
 
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I think I mentioned to explore the other sciences. The tangible things we can observe and debate or discuss. I merely reply back to what is posted to me, the best way I can.

Handwaiving is not my response (if it seems that way to you).

No amount of knowledge can ever 100% demonstrate that you don't have a dragon sleeping under your bed. Anyone is free to believe in whatever magic they choose.

How seriously would you discuss someone's magic dragon claim? Magic dragon and god claims are scientifically identical.
 
I love quantum physics.
It's spooky.

I do not love physics, I love people. Physics is a tool. Some people love their hammers nd chain saws.

Spooky is a relative state of ignorance. Is the internal combustion engine spooky?

Reality is what it is.
 
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I think I mentioned to explore the other sciences. The tangible things we can observe and debate or discuss. I merely reply back to what is posted to me, the best way I can.

Handwaiving is not my response (if it seems that way to you).

Is anything we are saying making sense to you, or is it all passing over you?
 
... snip ...

No sample of the divine is required to test divine interactions with matter - just an exhaustive list of all interactions matter can have with anything. We have such a list. There are four (and only four) such interactions at human scales. Divine interactions are impossible, unless they use one of those four forces, in which case they would be very easily detected.
And, of those four, only two of them will be noticed by the average human unless they are involved somehow with nuclear/atomic physics or radiation.
 
I think I mentioned to explore the other sciences. The tangible things we can observe and debate or discuss. I merely reply back to what is posted to me, the best way I can.

Handwaiving is not my response (if it seems that way to you).

Is anything we are saying making sense to you, or is it all passing over you?

It seems obvious to me that Learner does not understand what people are talking about a lot of the time. And in this instance, he almost certainly doesn't understand the point that Bilby has been trying to make, that all possible interactions that are applicable to reality on a human scale have been defined by the Standard Model of Physics, which leaves a supernatural god with no apparent way to interact with said reality. This is also not the first time that this subject has been discussed with Learner as a (seemingly befuddled) participant. And he likely doesn't remember that either.
 
I think I mentioned to explore the other sciences. The tangible things we can observe and debate or discuss. I merely reply back to what is posted to me, the best way I can.

Handwaiving is not my response (if it seems that way to you).

No amount of knowledge can ever 100% demonstrate that you don't have a dragon sleeping under your bed. Anyone is free to believe in whatever magic or sci-fi theories they choose.

How seriously would you discuss someone's magic dragon claim? Magic dragon and god claims are scientifically identical.
FIFY

Indeed not perfect. We understand the same thing at least. What we do have, is the easily observable material matter thats available to us. For example:

A re-evaluating of sorts ... looking again at the credibility or interpretations (opinions) of the geological records, fosil records, bio-chemical and archeological claims to be correct or flawed. Something to debate or discuss that we can see with our eyes so to speak.
 
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... snip ...

No sample of the divine is required to test divine interactions with matter - just an exhaustive list of all interactions matter can have with anything. We have such a list. There are four (and only four) such interactions at human scales. Divine interactions are impossible, unless they use one of those four forces, in which case they would be very easily detected.
And, of those four, only two of them will be noticed by the average human unless they are involved somehow with nuclear/atomic physics or radiation.

Well Happy Hurah, we're touching upon the point I was making, although not quite, (Id' say God uses all the forces ).

When do you instantly peep into the QM world to catch or monitor a divine-manipulation in progress? How easy would it be to monitor such an event, if such a Divine intervention just apreared all of a sudden?

Logically imo, you would need a contiuous divine event, lasting enough time to setup to monitor and capture it's progression -which would be ideal for the theists. No specimen unfrotunately to make such claims!

Knowing when or where, is problematic and having the monitor devices in the right place and time from any location in the world is impossible. Setting up a lab doesn't mean you'll ATTRACT miracles events (so to speak) just because you chose to build your lab in a sunny spot in California - which would be really missing the mark if the DI event happens in Waikiki.

Knowing God proved to be impossible (by faith) because " you know all four forces", is simply a flawed argument, regardless of whether or not God exists.
 
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I think I mentioned to explore the other sciences. The tangible things we can observe and debate or discuss. I merely reply back to what is posted to me, the best way I can.

Handwaiving is not my response (if it seems that way to you).

Is anything we are saying making sense to you, or is it all passing over you?

It seems obvious to me that Learner does not understand what people are talking about a lot of the time. And in this instance, he almost certainly doesn't understand the point that Bilby has been trying to make, that all possible interactions that are applicable to reality on a human scale have been defined by the Standard Model of Physics, which leaves a supernatural god with no apparent way to interact with said reality. This is also not the first time that this subject has been discussed with Learner as a (seemingly befuddled) participant. And he likely doesn't remember that either.
To steve as well,

See above posts why I could be as you say ... "beffudled".
 
I think I mentioned to explore the other sciences. The tangible things we can observe and debate or discuss. I merely reply back to what is posted to me, the best way I can.

Handwaiving is not my response (if it seems that way to you).

No amount of knowledge can ever 100% demonstrate that you don't have a dragon sleeping under your bed. Anyone is free to believe in whatever magic or sci-fi theories they choose.

How seriously would you discuss someone's magic dragon claim? Magic dragon and god claims are scientifically identical.
FIFY

Indeed not perfect. We understand the same thing at least. What we do have, is the easily observable material matter thats available to us. For example:

A re-evaluating of sorts ... looking again at the credibility or interpretations (opinions) of the geological records, fosil records, bio-chemical and archeological claims to be correct or flawed. Something to debate or discuss that we can see with our eyes so to speak.

Thank-you for the reply but you didn't answer my question so I'll ask it again:

"How seriously would you discuss someone's magic dragon claim?"
 
Forgive me for sounding befuddled again, but you could take it serious IF you are interested, to discuss, debate and dispel all sorts of amazing claims, just as serious as it is, on most of the religion topics on many many threads?

A little mockery in humour is tolerable, perhaps sometimes I may reply with a little sarc/ironic undertone when responding.

Were you "interested" or serious when taking part on ALL those "magic dragon" discussions throughout the Religion section on this forum?
Troll or not a troll is the question IOWs.
 
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Forgive me for sounding befuddled again, but you could take it serious IF you are interested, to discuss, debate and dispel all sorts of amazing claims, just as serious as it is, on most of the religion topics on many many threads?

A little mockery is tolerable, although sometimes I may reply with a little sarcastic/ironic tone when responding.

Were you "interested" or serious when taking part on those magic dragon discussions throughout the Religion section on this forum? Troll or not a troll is the question IOWs.

Thank-you again for the response. I understand your position as someone who thinks a god is a real thing.

If you met a person who claimed that their magic dragon that slept under their bed was a real thing would you discuss it with them as seriously as you would discuss a god with a person?

I don't know how to ask the question any simpler than that.
 
... snip ...

No sample of the divine is required to test divine interactions with matter - just an exhaustive list of all interactions matter can have with anything. We have such a list. There are four (and only four) such interactions at human scales. Divine interactions are impossible, unless they use one of those four forces, in which case they would be very easily detected.
And, of those four, only two of them will be noticed by the average human unless they are involved somehow with nuclear/atomic physics or radiation.

Well Happy Hurah, we're touching upon the point I was making, although not quite, (Id' say God uses all the forces ).

When do you instantly peep into the QM world to catch or monitor a divine-manipulation in progress? How easy would it be to monitor such an event, if such a Divine intervention just apreared all of a sudden?

Logically imo, you would need a contiuous divine event, lasting enough time to setup to monitor and capture it's progression -which would be ideal for the theists. No specimen unfrotunately to make such claims!

Knowing when or where, is problematic and having the monitor devices in the right place and time from any location in the world is impossible. Setting up a lab doesn't mean you'll ATTRACT miracles events (so to speak) just because you chose to build your lab in a sunny spot in California - which would be really missing the mark if the DI event happens in Waikiki.

Knowing God proved to be impossible (by faith) because " you know all four forces", is simply a flawed argument, regardless of whether or not God exists.
So you are back to magic and shifting the burden of proof, insisting it is true unless magic can be disproven. I have absolutely no reason to accept your claim that you have a one liter bottle that will hold fifty gallons of water. It is your burden to produce your magic bottle it you want anyone to accept it is real.
 
Forgive me for sounding befuddled again, but you could take it serious IF you are interested, to discuss, debate and dispel all sorts of amazing claims, just as serious as it is, on most of the religion topics on many many threads?

A little mockery in humour is tolerable, perhaps sometimes I may reply with a little sarc/ironic undertone when responding.

Were you "interested" or serious when taking part on ALL those "magic dragon" discussions throughout the Religion section on this forum?
Troll or not a troll is the question IOWs.

Moogly's point was that you, and Christians in general, dismiss out of hand any claims of magic including other religion's magic as nonsense not worth discussing. For example, Joseph Smith's miracles have millions of believers and yet most Christians see the story as obvious nonsense. The same for other religions, past and present.

And yet Christians can not understand how or why anyone could possibly not accept their tales of magic as obviously true and take them seriously.
 
So you are back to magic and shifting the burden of proof, insisting it is true unless magic can be disproven. I have absolutely no reason to accept your claim that you have a one liter bottle that will hold fifty gallons of water. It is your burden to produce your magic bottle it you want anyone to accept it is real.

Atrib is right. I am befuddled with responses like these.

What are you saying? Are you then in agreement to the notion that it IS proven there can be no such thing as God or Creator, because of the physics reagrding knowing all four forces?

I haven't shifted the burden at all (nice try again). You (plural) took on the burden of proof by claiming the above that not even Dawkins would claim. You (plural) strangley want to stay in this area (many posts along), perhaps thinking this an advantage when oddly this its not an argument that either side can really use at all as proof. Hence its better to go with what we do have thats visible and tangible etc.and etc!

EDIT: My Post #392 was more-so a response to Bilby's post #383.
 
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Moogly's point was that you, and Christians in general, dismiss out of hand any claims of magic including other religion's magic as nonsense not worth discussing. For example, Joseph Smith's miracles have millions of believers and yet most Christians see the story as obvious nonsense. The same for other religions, past and present.

And yet Christians can not understand how or why anyone could possibly not accept their tales of magic as obviously true and take them seriously.

There are all types of Christians. There are Christians who are critical of other Christians - You'll find many talks or lectures on-line, theists exposing non-biblical false preachings by various big churches for example.
 
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