crazy debate proposition

[BH]

If someone were to debate in favor of the old Socialist bloc countries against a capitalist economic system how would you go about it and give a somewhat credible defense?

I hear and read a lot about the Stasi and KGB terrifying the populations of their countries, but I have read the FBI and CIA pretty much did a lot of the same crap over here, with the media turning a blind eye to it if and when they were made aware of it. Also, there are always a few people in the local towns and cities who you know you better not get on their bad side or else you won't find jobs or the police all of a sudden will start bothering you.

One of the strangest things I ever read about the Soviet judicial system was about their worst serial killer. He killed possibly 60 people over 20 years. The local police arrested him I think in the late 70's for a few murders but they let him go---they didn't have enough evidence to convict him in a court of law, which I find strange. I thought they just took out whoever they thought did something and killed them or stuck them in jail.

 

[dismal]

If someone were to debate in favor of the old Socialist bloc countries against a capitalist economic system how would you go about it and give a somewhat credible defense?

Profit is bad, corporations are evil, rich people are rich, your life would be worse if your wise and benevolent government didn't control everything, yada yada.

Same sort of stuff you hear here every day.

 

[coloradoatheist]

If someone were to debate in favor of the old Socialist bloc countries against a capitalist economic system how would you go about it and give a somewhat credible defense?

I hear and read a lot about the Stasi and KGB terrifying the populations of their countries, but I have read the FBI and CIA pretty much did a lot of the same crap over here, with the media turning a blind eye to it if and when they were made aware of it. Also, there are always a few people in the local towns and cities who you know you better not get on their bad side or else you won't find jobs or the police all of a sudden will start bothering you.

One of the strangest things I ever read about the Soviet judicial system was about their worst serial killer. He killed possibly 60 people over 20 years. The local police arrested him I think in the late 70's for a few murders but they let him go---they didn't have enough evidence to convict him in a court of law, which I find strange. I thought they just took out whoever they thought did something and killed them or stuck them in jail.

It's possible. You compare the time frame of the Un-American trials in terms of people subjugated, investigated, forced to leave to any political trials in the form USSR. Did people in the streets feel the same pressure in both countries? ETc.

 

[Bronzeage]

If someone were to debate in favor of the old Socialist bloc countries against a capitalist economic system how would you go about it and give a somewhat credible defense?

I hear and read a lot about the Stasi and KGB terrifying the populations of their countries, but I have read the FBI and CIA pretty much did a lot of the same crap over here, with the media turning a blind eye to it if and when they were made aware of it. Also, there are always a few people in the local towns and cities who you know you better not get on their bad side or else you won't find jobs or the police all of a sudden will start bothering you.

One of the strangest things I ever read about the Soviet judicial system was about their worst serial killer. He killed possibly 60 people over 20 years. The local police arrested him I think in the late 70's for a few murders but they let him go---they didn't have enough evidence to convict him in a court of law, which I find strange. I thought they just took out whoever they thought did something and killed them or stuck them in jail.

The problem with arguing in favor of old Socialist bloc countries is anyone can simply point to the performance and the average standard of living in these countries. Some aspects were better than capitalist nations, but on the whole, the average person's life was dismal.

The case of the Soviet serial killer is rooted in the ideology of the times. The Stasi and KGB were political police and not overly concerned with common criminals. The local police did not have a central database, so criminals could move to different jurisdictions with relative ease and commit the same crimes without them being connected.

To compound this problem, sociopathy was supposed to be the result of western decadence, and not possible under the communist system. The idea a murderer and his victim might not have any more connection than the murder was not credible until this particular case came to light.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If someone were to debate in favor of the old Socialist bloc countries against a capitalist economic system how would you go about it and give a somewhat credible defense?

I hear and read a lot about the Stasi and KGB terrifying the populations of their countries, but I have read the FBI and CIA pretty much did a lot of the same crap over here, with the media turning a blind eye to it if and when they were made aware of it. Also, there are always a few people in the local towns and cities who you know you better not get on their bad side or else you won't find jobs or the police all of a sudden will start bothering you.

It's a very different thing. I've been behind the Iron Curtain and it was nothing like what we have here.

Consider our attitudes towards law enforcement.

Most people would have no problem going to the cops if they had a problem.

We had a run-in with the police in Romania--entirely their mistake that we didn't spot because we didn't know the language. Most of the issue was resolved pretty quickly (and it would have been much faster but for the language barrier) but then came the hard part--they wanted us to fill out a report about the incident. In Romanian. That required an interpreter--and that proved quite problematic. Nobody was willing to get involved in a police matter even anonymously. (A businessman from Vienna overheard our plight and helped--he knew that local people would be unwilling to help us.)

 

[boneyard bill]

If someone were to debate in favor of the old Socialist bloc countries against a capitalist economic system how would you go about it and give a somewhat credible defense?

I hear and read a lot about the Stasi and KGB terrifying the populations of their countries, but I have read the FBI and CIA pretty much did a lot of the same crap over here, with the media turning a blind eye to it if and when they were made aware of it. Also, there are always a few people in the local towns and cities who you know you better not get on their bad side or else you won't find jobs or the police all of a sudden will start bothering you.

One of the strangest things I ever read about the Soviet judicial system was about their worst serial killer. He killed possibly 60 people over 20 years. The local police arrested him I think in the late 70's for a few murders but they let him go---they didn't have enough evidence to convict him in a court of law, which I find strange. I thought they just took out whoever they thought did something and killed them or stuck them in jail.

You seem to be asking two different things. On the one hand you ask for a defense of their economic system, and on the other you cite their police state as, perhaps, not being a whole lot worse than our own. That is not an economic question. In terms of the police state problem. I think we are as bad as the Soviet Union and maybe even worse. Most of us don't get caught up in the system so we don't realize it. But that fact is that the CIA and the FBI can get away with just about anything, and many local police and judicial systems are equally corrupt. Likewise the average Soviet citizen didn't come into much contact with the KGB. They weren't concerned that there were spies or cameras on every street corner. We don't have that yet, but the British do so I suspect that we are not far behind. Meanwhile, our media has become and complete mouthpiece for the government. Fortunately, we have the internet, and there are still some book publishers who have some guts and will publish books that criticize and expose the government. I won't go any further into that now, however, because that is not the primary topic of this thread.

What you did get from the Soviet system economically was security. Yes, the system did not produce a very high standard of living, but compared to previous centuries, the Russians were well off. Meanwhile, every one had a job and various social benefits. If you simply ignored politics, religion, philosophy and what not, you would very likely be left alone. Of course, the system went under and everybody was suddenly very insecure. But that was due, in part at least, to heavy Soviet military spending. They had to spend 15% of GDP just to match us at only 5% of GDP.

So if you could be content with less material wealth, then you could still be fairly comfortable and confident about your place in the system. But it won't work if you need to spend a lot of money on defense with such a low GDP.

 

[Sarpedon]

There was a huge difference between political crimes and ordinary crimes. There were different courts and police for political crimes. Ordinary crimes had ordinary courts and police, which weren't all that different from ours. There were many complaints of inefficiency and corruption. So not all that different.

 

[bilby]

It's 3am. You are asleep in bed, when suddenly a bunch of armed thugs smash your door down, and burst in waving guns about. They drag you out of bed, cuff you, and proceed to tear your home apart looking for evidence.

They find nothing incriminating; if you were mostly compliant with the search and didn't protest too much, they let you go without charge. Try to complain, and likely they will plant some evidence, and drag you off to jail.

This was simply a part of life in the Soviet Union, if you were suspected of a political crime; Anyone who had a grudge against you could send an anonymous tip to the cops, and have your life turned upside down in this way.

Of course, it isn't like that in the West. In Soviet Russia, you got that treatment if you were wrongly suspected of political crimes; in the West, it only happens if you are wrongly suspected of drug offences or terrorism.

What's that you say? Terrorism is a political crime? Mere suspicion that you might have aided terrorism is enough to get you this treatment? Hmm. Perhaps the two systems are not as different as we might have hoped...

 

[barbos]

If someone were to debate in favor of the old Socialist bloc countries against a capitalist economic system how would you go about it and give a somewhat credible defense?

I hear and read a lot about the Stasi and KGB terrifying the populations of their countries, but I have read the FBI and CIA pretty much did a lot of the same crap over here, with the media turning a blind eye to it if and when they were made aware of it. Also, there are always a few people in the local towns and cities who you know you better not get on their bad side or else you won't find jobs or the police all of a sudden will start bothering you.

One of the strangest things I ever read about the Soviet judicial system was about their worst serial killer. He killed possibly 60 people over 20 years. The local police arrested him I think in the late 70's for a few murders but they let him go---they didn't have enough evidence to convict him in a court of law, which I find strange. I thought they just took out whoever they thought did something and killed them or stuck them in jail.

I think you are talking about Chikatilo, yes, they let him go at one point, but they executed few others for his crimes.
It was not "not enough evidence against him to prosecute", it was more like "not enough evidence to think he is the one"
They had probably hundreds of suspects, there were no reason to to think that every one of them was maniac.
Problem with maniacs is that taking random person and and putting him in jail does not work, real maniac just keeps killing people.

But If O.J. Simpson was in SU he would have been put in prison in short order.

 

[barbos]

I had lived in the late Soviet Union.
West tends to over-blow amount of political resistance in SU. Yes, there were dissidents but not that many.
Yes, they were treated badly, but only when they would go overboard causing actual troubles. Simply being skeptical and keep it to yourself or close friends was widespread and perfectly OK. Otherwise most of the country would have been in prison for simply telling political anecdotes.
Ordinary people were never concerned about that. Being a member of communist party was formal requirement to be any kind of manager in industry. But it was very formal thing, they would do lip service and go on with managing and running a factory.
It was very much like being a member of church in US. You can be an atheist but it's better for your career if you go along with all that church/religion crap.
And even so, there were exceptions to this rule, Academia for example had very small membership and being a party member was actually frown upon among peers, at least in my experience.

As for CIA versus KGB, I tend to think they were and still are worthy of each other.

 

[Juma]

I had lived in the late Soviet Union.
West tends to over-blow amount of political resistance in SU. Yes, there were dissidents but not that many.
Ordinary people were never concerned about that. Being a member of communist party was formal requirement to be any kind of manager in industry. But it was very formal thing, they would do lip service and go on with managing and running a factory.
It was very much like being a member of church in US. You can be an atheist but it's better for your career if you go along with all that church/religion crap.
And even so, there were exceptions to this rule, Academia for example had very small membership and being a party member was actually frown upon among peers, at least in my experience.

As for CIA versus KGB, I tend to think they were and still are worthy of each other.

And the US version of GULAG?

guantanamo?

 

[barbos]

And the US version of GULAG?

guantanamo?

Have never been to guantanamo. As for GULAG, consensus is, it was very bad, but I was merely talking about late SU, not about Stalin's time.