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Definition of Consciousness: 2nd Poll

Which one of the four definitions below best fits your view of consciousness?


  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .
My favourite is the difference between a pidgin and a creole. I think I first saw that in one of Pinker's books, but I'm sure Cop can point me at a long history of ink spilled on this rather interesting phenomenon.
 
My favourite is the difference between a pidgin and a creole. I think I first saw that in one of Pinker's books, but I'm sure Cop can point me at a long history of ink spilled on this rather interesting phenomenon.
Yes, there is a very large literature on that subject, which was a hot topic before Pinker came on the scene. The word "pidgin" derives historically from the English word "business", and it usually refers to a hybrid trade language that develops when two mutually unintelligible languages come into contact. (Those who coined the word had developed a Chinese-English pidgin, I believe.) Anyway, the structure of pidgins is fairly simple and remarkably similar across most of the recorded instances. Creoles essentially come into existence when a pidgin comes to be adopted as a natural language by a speech community. So the syntax becomes more complex, but, again, there are very interesting universal similarities across different creoles. The reason that this is relevant to the controversy over the innateness hypothesis is that pidgins and creoles are thought to give insight into so-called "Universal Grammar" (UG) in Chomsky's theory.

Pinker is a very interesting character in that he has been closely associated with Chomsky's "sphere of influence" so to speak. He was educated at Harvard, but he did do some teaching at MIT. Chomsky himself follows Pinker's work and has a lot of respect for him. However, Pinker has distanced himself more and more from Chomsky over time. The following short video clip is very interesting in this respect. A non-linguist asks Pinker to explain Chomsky's concept of "Universal Grammar" and whether he thinks it might simply be mistaken. Listen to the very guarded way in which Pinker attempts to answer the question as he tries to find some way to endorse the idea that Chomsky's theory has merit. He is clearly uncomfortable with it, but he doesn't want to simply say it might be wrong.

[YOUTUBE]vg4BtHuLtCY[/YOUTUBE]
 
My favourite is the difference between a pidgin and a creole. I think I first saw that in one of Pinker's books, but I'm sure Cop can point me at a long history of ink spilled on this rather interesting phenomenon.

A creole is a blend of two languages; While a pidgin is a bird of the family Columbidae.

You're welcome.
 
Where is your link to the study that looked at children only exposed to television?

Where's your link to me using the word only?

However, you don't know something and I am supposed to do a research project?

I did you the favor and told you about something you had no idea existed.

Do a little work yourself.

I am asking you to support something I do not believe for a second.

Your response is what I expected.

I did not expect to see a link to a paper.
 
It's like asking for a link to show water is wet.
 
First there's the issue of a neonate needing no training. There are literally hundreds of studies that show that the sort of baby talk that infants are exposed to has a clear tendency to be just a little ahead of the child's own development. This 'motherese' tends to have exaggerated intonation, simplified grammatical structure and vocabulary, combined with repetition, questions and rehearsal of key aspects of language. This just happens quite naturally, without planning and so it's easy not to notice just how much effort, practice and exposure a child is involved in. The fact is that as some poor sods discover, simply planting a child in front of a TV or radio does not allow them to develop language. It's interaction with carers.

I have only three words.

Poverty of stimulus.

The acquisition of syntax is accomplished with an incredibly sparse amount and many times poor quality of data.

It is not acquired through learning. There is no possible way it could be.

That is beyond dispute.

And I do not know about television learning. I suspect it is possible. But it is unethical and cannot be tried. Humans need emotional support and human contact to develop strong controls over emotions, not for language acquisition. For language acquisition, like the acquisition of vision, all they need is exposure to acquire the ability. Even very little exposure which could not possibly explain the result.

Bad opinions about Chomsky are common. Actual understanding of his work is rare.

I have only one word. But I ain't gonna say it. :)

In other news: a child raised without exposure to linguistic phenomena will not speak. A child whose exposure to linguistic phenomena is significantly delayed will have severe language-acquisition developments. How does that square with the "no learning possible and hence necessary" theory, Mr. Untermensche?

Did you watch that incredible Chomsky video I posted?

Chomsky is forced to write a lesson for his students on the board.

He explains the necessary requirements for all biological systems of growth and development. Systems like the visual system or the immune system or the language system.

1. External data. The visual system needs early stimulation to develop properly. The immune system needs early exposures to develop properly. The language system needs early exposure to develop properly.

But the language system just needs exposure to language. It does not need any teaching except for the labels and it does not teaching of these, just exposure. Proper syntax will develop without any training, just with exposure. Even very limited exposure.

2. Genetic component. The genes that are necessary to have the system.

3. Natural laws. The "laws" that govern all activity of matter and energy.

So of course exposure to language is necessary to have one.

But just exposure. No training is required.

Although children do many times get a lot of training.

But they usually get training in artificial invented rules of grammar. Ornamental aspects of language that really serve no functional purpose and are not needed at all to use language.

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It's like asking for a link to show water is wet.

You have no evidence for it.

It is something you think in your gut should be true.

But it isn't.
 
It is also well known that Chomsky was born of a virgin mother and that jealous hierophants in the linguistic community have asked the NSF to cut off his grant money.
 
Chomsky himself follows Pinker's work and has a lot of respect for him....

Show me some evidence of this.

In the latest from Berwick and Chomsky, 'Why only us. Language and Evolution' they reference Pinker twice. Both times they disagree with him.

Pinker believes language evolved merely because of other systems that developed, like memory and cognition. The typical evolutionary scenario of slow change over long periods of time.

Chomsky believes a language capacity arose very quickly and very recently and language is only possible because of that capacity.

They fundamentally disagree on what language is.

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It is also well known that Chomsky was born of a virgin mother and that jealous hierophants in the linguistic community have asked the NSF to cut off his grant money.

Wow. Your tune has swung from rational to insane very quickly.

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He said it's like asking about water.

Maybe you should discover what the it is first?
 
First there's the issue of a neonate needing no training. There are literally hundreds of studies that show that the sort of baby talk that infants are exposed to has a clear tendency to be just a little ahead of the child's own development. This 'motherese' tends to have exaggerated intonation, simplified grammatical structure and vocabulary, combined with repetition, questions and rehearsal of key aspects of language. This just happens quite naturally, without planning and so it's easy not to notice just how much effort, practice and exposure a child is involved in. The fact is that as some poor sods discover, simply planting a child in front of a TV or radio does not allow them to develop language. It's interaction with carers.

I have only three words.

Poverty of stimulus.

The acquisition of syntax is accomplished with an incredibly sparse amount and many times poor quality of data.

It is not acquired through learning. There is no possible way it could be.

That is beyond dispute.
Again, you completely misunderstand what Chomsky has been saying. If you listened to him in the video, you would have caught where he said that learning from stimulus was absolutely necessary. The thing you are missing here is that nobody who studies this topic seriously disputes the fact that language is instinctual in humans. What is in dispute is what is learned from experience and what is biologically inherited. Chomsky also jumps to a conclusion that some of us have serious doubts about--that the purpose of the linguistic "grammar" is to generate well-formedness intuitions. A more behavioral functionalist approach to language (and one that I favor) is that intuitions are a product of a general introspective capacity that predictively models sensorimotor behavior. So the evolutionary "purpose" of the psychological grammar is not to enable intuitions of grammaticality, but to produce and understand linguistic expressions. Such intuitions are simulations produced by a more general cognitive function. (One of the questioners in the video seemed to be thinking along these lines, but he didn't pose his question in quite the way I would have.)

I suspect that most of what I say bounces off your defensive shields, unter, but maybe others who bother to follow the discussion are interested. I'll just make one more remark about a flaw in Chomsky's approach to universals. He referred typological universals, but he used the somewhat dated expression "Greenberg's universals", referring to the linguist who laid some of the seminal groundwork. An example of such a universal (which Chomsky should have mentioned to help his audience understand what he was talking about) is the tendency of verb-first languages to have prefixes and prepositions, and verb-last languages to have postpositions and suffixes. Another would be that it is very common for verb-first languages to place modifiers after the words they modify and for verb-last languages to place modifiers before the words they modify. (I have greatly oversimplified this, but you get the idea I hope.) Chomsky also thinks in terms of other types of universals--e.g. his principles of binding theory. The problem is that he has no principled method for separating biological universals from accidental ones. So, if a nuclear war wiped out every linguistic community except for a community of Amharic speakers, then every feature of Amharic would become a linguistic universal overnight. However, not every feature would be biologically determined. And that is a big problem for him, because the dispute has never been whether language was to some degree innate, but what aspects of it were innate or not innate. It is not enough to merely say that certain universals are evidence of UG. One needs to be able to say which universals (if any) are evidence of UG. Otherwise, his claim becomes a "just so" story.

I, for one, am interested. Is there an agreed upon list of universals that linguists are trying to categorize as biological?
 
Again, you completely misunderstand what Chomsky has been saying. If you listened to him in the video, you would have caught where he said that learning from stimulus was absolutely necessary. The thing you are missing here is that nobody who studies this topic seriously disputes the fact that language is instinctual in humans. What is in dispute is what is learned from experience and what is biologically inherited. Chomsky also jumps to a conclusion that some of us have serious doubts about--that the purpose of the linguistic "grammar" is to generate well-formedness intuitions. A more behavioral functionalist approach to language (and one that I favor) is that intuitions are a product of a general introspective capacity that predictively models sensorimotor behavior. So the evolutionary "purpose" of the psychological grammar is not to enable intuitions of grammaticality, but to produce and understand linguistic expressions. Such intuitions are simulations produced by a more general cognitive function. (One of the questioners in the video seemed to be thinking along these lines, but he didn't pose his question in quite the way I would have.)

I suspect that most of what I say bounces off your defensive shields, unter, but maybe others who bother to follow the discussion are interested. I'll just make one more remark about a flaw in Chomsky's approach to universals. He referred typological universals, but he used the somewhat dated expression "Greenberg's universals", referring to the linguist who laid some of the seminal groundwork. An example of such a universal (which Chomsky should have mentioned to help his audience understand what he was talking about) is the tendency of verb-first languages to have prefixes and prepositions, and verb-last languages to have postpositions and suffixes. Another would be that it is very common for verb-first languages to place modifiers after the words they modify and for verb-last languages to place modifiers before the words they modify. (I have greatly oversimplified this, but you get the idea I hope.) Chomsky also thinks in terms of other types of universals--e.g. his principles of binding theory. The problem is that he has no principled method for separating biological universals from accidental ones. So, if a nuclear war wiped out every linguistic community except for a community of Amharic speakers, then every feature of Amharic would become a linguistic universal overnight. However, not every feature would be biologically determined. And that is a big problem for him, because the dispute has never been whether language was to some degree innate, but what aspects of it were innate or not innate. It is not enough to merely say that certain universals are evidence of UG. One needs to be able to say which universals (if any) are evidence of UG. Otherwise, his claim becomes a "just so" story.

I, for one, am interested. Is there an agreed upon list of universals that linguists are trying to categorize as biological?

The problem is that such claims are completely without scientific merit, and most linguists don't try to tie specific universals to biological origins. Chomsky's very general "innateness hypothesis" refers to the skewed nature of linguistic patterns in general. However, if you just look at typological universals regarding clause structure (so-called "Greenberg universals"), that tends to be the sort of thing that linguists will try to associate with UG. Linguists tend to avoid making testable claims, as Pinker pointed out. So there is an element of "argument from incredulity" about the enterprise--a failure to imagine any other means by which such universals could have come about.

However, I have seen at least one very credible account of Greenberg's structural claims that associate their left-handed/right-handed mirror-image patterning to prosodic patterns of articulation (i.e. basic syllable structure), which means that they may ultimately be grounded in processes governing muscular coordination during speech production. I don't want to go into details here, because it requires some understanding of articulatory phonetics to see how the explanation works. The point is that universals can have causes that have nothing directly to do with genetic inheritance. OTOH, maybe the patterns derive from some inherited Chomskyan UG principles, where neonate language learners just toggle parameters to arrive at a native grammar. Such claims have a highly speculative flavor to them.
 
Show me some evidence of this.

In the latest from Berwick and Chomsky, 'Why only us. Language and Evolution' they reference Pinker twice. Both times they disagree with him.

Pinker believes language evolved merely because of other systems that developed, like memory and cognition. The typical evolutionary scenario of slow change over long periods of time.

Chomsky believes a language capacity arose very quickly and very recently and language is only possible because of that capacity.

They fundamentally disagree on what language is.

- - - Updated - - -



Wow. Your tune has swung from rational to insane very quickly.

- - - Updated - - -


He said it's like asking about water.

Maybe you should discover what the it is first?

Actually. both times I was quoting you when asked to provide evidence for something you had said. It's gratifying to see how you feel you should be treated.

Meanwhile, the link between watching too much TV as a child and serious delays in language acquisition remains a well evidenced fact. I'd have thought that you'd have been up to speed on this but between the attempted straw man and the assertion that you knew there was no evidence, I'm apparently wrong.
 
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Again, you completely misunderstand what Chomsky has been saying. If you listened to him in the video, you would have caught where he said that learning from stimulus was absolutely necessary. The thing you are missing here is that nobody who studies this topic seriously disputes the fact that language is instinctual in humans. What is in dispute is what is learned from experience and what is biologically inherited. Chomsky also jumps to a conclusion that some of us have serious doubts about--that the purpose of the linguistic "grammar" is to generate well-formedness intuitions. A more behavioral functionalist approach to language (and one that I favor) is that intuitions are a product of a general introspective capacity that predictively models sensorimotor behavior. So the evolutionary "purpose" of the psychological grammar is not to enable intuitions of grammaticality, but to produce and understand linguistic expressions. Such intuitions are simulations produced by a more general cognitive function. (One of the questioners in the video seemed to be thinking along these lines, but he didn't pose his question in quite the way I would have.)

I suspect that most of what I say bounces off your defensive shields, unter, but maybe others who bother to follow the discussion are interested. I'll just make one more remark about a flaw in Chomsky's approach to universals. He referred typological universals, but he used the somewhat dated expression "Greenberg's universals", referring to the linguist who laid some of the seminal groundwork. An example of such a universal (which Chomsky should have mentioned to help his audience understand what he was talking about) is the tendency of verb-first languages to have prefixes and prepositions, and verb-last languages to have postpositions and suffixes. Another would be that it is very common for verb-first languages to place modifiers after the words they modify and for verb-last languages to place modifiers before the words they modify. (I have greatly oversimplified this, but you get the idea I hope.) Chomsky also thinks in terms of other types of universals--e.g. his principles of binding theory. The problem is that he has no principled method for separating biological universals from accidental ones. So, if a nuclear war wiped out every linguistic community except for a community of Amharic speakers, then every feature of Amharic would become a linguistic universal overnight. However, not every feature would be biologically determined. And that is a big problem for him, because the dispute has never been whether language was to some degree innate, but what aspects of it were innate or not innate. It is not enough to merely say that certain universals are evidence of UG. One needs to be able to say which universals (if any) are evidence of UG. Otherwise, his claim becomes a "just so" story.

I, for one, am interested. Is there an agreed upon list of universals that linguists are trying to categorize as biological?

The problem is that such claims are completely without scientific merit, and most linguists don't try to tie specific universals to biological origins. Chomsky's very general "innateness hypothesis" refers to the skewed nature of linguistic patterns in general. However, if you just look at typological universals regarding clause structure (so-called "Greenberg universals"), that tends to be the sort of thing that linguists will try to associate with UG. Linguists tend to avoid making testable claims, as Pinker pointed out. So there is an element of "argument from incredulity" about the enterprise--a failure to imagine any other means by which such universals could have come about.

However, I have seen at least one very credible account of Greenberg's structural claims that associate their left-handed/right-handed mirror-image patterning to prosodic patterns of articulation (i.e. basic syllable structure), which means that they may ultimately be grounded in processes governing muscular coordination during speech production. I don't want to go into details here, because it requires some understanding of articulatory phonetics to see how the explanation works. The point is that universals can have causes that have nothing directly to do with genetic inheritance. OTOH, maybe the patterns derive from some inherited Chomskyan UG principles, where neonate language learners just toggle parameters to arrive at a native grammar. Such claims have a highly speculative flavor to them.

If I remember rightly, the Neuroscientist William Calvin argued for this position in his light but readable book, The Throwing Madonna. His position was that the mechanisms for the sort of ballistic actions initiated by the brain could have been evolved through throwing stones at dinner. He was trying to bridge the evolutionary lacunae caused by the lack of selective pressure for the neural mechanisms of language production until they start paying off. While it was a lovely just so story and well told, I think I'd rather reflect on the trajectory of the FoxP2 gene and increasingly complex signalling well before we got much of a look in. Hadrosaurs for example, look to have some remarkably complex sound generating and modulating structures which fit nicely with what also looks like rather complex social behaviour.
 
Meanwhile, the link between watching too much TV as a child and serious delays in language acquisition remains a well evidenced fact. I'd have thought that you'd have been up to speed on this but between the attempted straw man and the assertion that you knew there was no evidence, I'm apparently wrong.

I do not believe you for a second.

You are making this up.

No such connection exists.

There is individual variability in language acquisition. A person can only acquire the vocabulary they are exposed to. A parent with a small vocabulary will stunt their child's development in that aspect. Low exposure to vocabulary will stunt that development. But the ability to understand and use language will not be stunted as long as there is exposure to one at the right times of development.

I suspect you have some anecdotal evidence you think is scientific.
 
Meanwhile, the link between watching too much TV as a child and serious delays in language acquisition remains a well evidenced fact. I'd have thought that you'd have been up to speed on this but between the attempted straw man and the assertion that you knew there was no evidence, I'm apparently wrong.

I do not believe you for a second.

You are making this up.

No such connection exists.

There is individual variability in language acquisition. A person can only acquire the vocabulary they are exposed to. A parent with a small vocabulary will stunt their child's development in that aspect. Low exposure to vocabulary will stunt that development. But the ability to understand and use language will not be stunted as long as there is exposure to one at the right times of development.

I suspect you have some anecdotal evidence you think is scientific.

Good, I'd say that's a big enough hole.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23967799

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460044

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4365020/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22575125

You want to keep digging?
 
These studies show a correlation of language delays with many factors. None conclusively say television viewing is a causative factor.

It is not clear if TV viewing is the most significant factor or a causation of anything. There is also a correlation between poverty and language delays and poverty and television viewing.
 
These studies show a correlation of language delays with many factors. None conclusively say television viewing is a causative factor.

It is not clear if TV viewing is the most significant factor or a causation of anything. There is also a correlation between poverty and language delays and poverty and television viewing.

Really? Not even the one entitled:

Television viewing associates with delayed language development.


that concludes:

There is a relationship between early onset and high frequency of TV viewing and language delay.

That seems pretty clear to me.

Here's the abstract:


AIM:
To identify impact of television viewing on language development.

METHODS:
The case-control study included 56 new patients with language delay and 110 normal children, aged 15-48 months. Language delay was diagnosed by reviewing language milestones and Denver-II. Television viewing variables and child/parental characteristics between both groups were interviewed. The data were analyzed by ANOVA and chi-square test. Adjusted odds ratios and 95% confidence intervals were calculated from multivariate logistic regression model.

RESULTS:
Forty-six boys and 10 girls; mean [+/-SD] age, 2.11+/-0.47 years of the case group and 59 boys and 51 girls; mean [+/-SD] age, 2.23+/-0.80 years of the control group were enrolled. Children who had language delay usually started watching television earlier at age 7.22+/-5.52 months vs. 11.92+/-5.86 months, p-value<0.001 and also spent more time watching television than normal children (3.05+/-1.90 h/day vs. 1.85+/-1.18 h/day; p-value<0.001). Children who started watching television at<12 months of age and watched television>2 h/day were approximately six times more likely to have language delays.

CONCLUSIONS:
There is a relationship between early onset and high frequency of TV viewing and language delay.
 
How exactly were confounding variables handled in that study?

What was the correlation between language delay and parental education and level of income?

What was the correlation to amount of siblings?

What was the correlation to nutrition?

Why do you think a mere correlation to tv viewing shows causation?
 
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