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Definition of Consciousness: 2nd Poll

Which one of the four definitions below best fits your view of consciousness?


  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .
You clearly have no idea what Noam Chomsky believes about language acquisition.

He's only the father of modern Linguistics.

I have no time to take you to nursery school and teach you everything.
 
Evolution of the brain enabled some species to experience and to feel, to think and to respond accordingly...

And it enabled the consciousness to decide to move the arm and cause it.


Makes no sense, consciousness and motor action are functions of a working brain, consciousness itself does not send signals to muscle groups, contract, expand, etc, the brain does. Consciousness is not aware of the process of motor actions, only the resultant actions being performed at will....conscious will also being formed by the brain in response to its stimuli.
 
Evolution of the brain enabled some species to experience and to feel, to think and to respond accordingly...

And it enabled the consciousness to decide to move the arm and cause it.


Makes no sense, consciousness and motor action are functions of a working brain, consciousness itself does not send signals to muscle groups, contract, expand, etc, the brain does. Consciousness is not aware of the process of motor actions, only the resultant actions being performed at will....conscious will also being formed by the brain in response to its stimuli.

Just because you can't understand how something happens is no evidence it can't and doesn't happen.

Your ignorance does not define what is possible.

Understand what the consciousness is and you will understand how it does what it does.

Not before.
 
I'd go broke if I didn't buy my irony meters in bulk.

So you agree we should consider experience some trick the brain plays on us?

This clear conception and experience that we are deciding to move the arm and then causing the brain to do it.

And without us willing the arm to move it might move in a spastic unproductive manner but it will not write a sentence.

All a funny joke the brain plays.

For no reason at all.

Sure, that's believable.
 
Makes no sense, consciousness and motor action are functions of a working brain, consciousness itself does not send signals to muscle groups, contract, expand, etc, the brain does. Consciousness is not aware of the process of motor actions, only the resultant actions being performed at will....conscious will also being formed by the brain in response to its stimuli.

Just because you can't understand how something happens is no evidence it can't and doesn't happen.

Your ignorance does not define what is possible.

Understand what the consciousness is and you will understand how it does what it does.

Not before.

Yet you are the one stressing all along that nobody understands consciousness....yet that doesn't stop you making positive and adamant claims relating to its nature (independent agency), role (decision maker) and purpose (making decision and initiating motor actions), never seeing the irony of your position.
 
A single mutation can have huge effects on a very complex functional system.

Some hypothesize that the language capacity arose because of a single mutation.

Mutations are evolution, not thinking about something.

Actually, the underlying process on which selection acts is almost inevitably sexual recombination. More to the point, evolution isn’t simply mutation or recombination. Mind you, think of all the things that have to be in place for language to happen, both
physiologically and in terms of neural mechanism... A single mutation? I can’t think of anyone who suggests that, can you link to someone?

So you don't know something and I am supposed to do a research project?

I did you the favor and told you about something you had no idea existed.

Do a little work yourself.

Actually, I was being polite; I'm quite certain that there are no serious scholars today who 'hypothesize that the language capacity arose because of a single mutation'. You are making this claim, please justify it with evidence.
 
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You clearly have no idea what Noam Chomsky believes about language acquisition.

He's only the father of modern Linguistics.

I have no time to take you to nursery school and teach you everything.

I'm sure you are aware of the fallacy of an appeal to authority. Right now, this looks like the laziest appeal to authority I have seen in a while, as you have merely invoked Chomsky without even bothering with the argument.

So I'm afraid that you may have to explain quite how your appeal to Noam Chomsky supports the claim that some theorists hypothesize that the language capacity arose because of a single mutation. He certainly didn't make that claim. And his theory of language acquisition involves invoking a universal grammar. If you want to explain how a single mutation can give rise to a universal generative grammar then I'm all ears.
 
You clearly have no idea what Noam Chomsky believes about language acquisition.

He's only the father of modern Linguistics.

I have no time to take you to nursery school and teach you everything.

I'm sure you are aware of the fallacy of an appeal to authority. Right now, this looks like the laziest appeal to authority I have seen in a while, as you have merely invoked Chomsky without even bothering with the argument.

So I'm afraid that you may have to explain quite how your appeal to Noam Chomsky supports the claim that some theorists hypothesize that the language capacity arose because of a single mutation. He certainly didn't make that claim. And his theory of language acquisition involves invoking a universal grammar. If you want to explain how a single mutation can give rise to a universal generative grammar then I'm all ears.

I gave you a name and what that person believes.

Now you have to do something.

I know for certain I am right.

You do not know anything about this.
 
Actually, I was being polite; I'm quite certain that there are no serious scholars today who 'hypothesize that the language capacity arose because of a single mutation'. You are making this claim, please justify it with evidence.

You actually were being very stupid and still are.

Look it up if you do not believe me.

Then apologize.
 
You clearly have no idea what Noam Chomsky believes about language acquisition.

He's only the father of modern Linguistics.

I have no time to take you to nursery school and teach you everything.

I'm sure you are aware of the fallacy of an appeal to authority. Right now, this looks like the laziest appeal to authority I have seen in a while, as you have merely invoked Chomsky without even bothering with the argument.

So I'm afraid that you may have to explain quite how your appeal to Noam Chomsky supports the claim that some theorists hypothesize that the language capacity arose because of a single mutation. He certainly didn't make that claim. And his theory of language acquisition involves invoking a universal grammar. If you want to explain how a single mutation can give rise to a universal generative grammar then I'm all ears.

I gave you a name and what that person believes.

Now you have to do something.

I know for certain I am right.

You do not know anything about this.

Splendid, I can do that. I know enough to know that your gross misunderstanding of Chomsky's work on the evolution of the mechanisms for language comes from your, or at least someone's (mis)reading of his 2015 book 'Why only us?' Fortunately, I have a copy sat in front of me now. Unfortunately that means I'll have to type in the quotes.

Chomsky said:
The clues we have that we discuss just below and later in chapter 4 point in the direction of relatively rapid change, sometime between the period when anatomically modern humans first appeared in Africa about 200,000 years ago, and their subsequent exodus out of Africa 60,000 years ago.
(Why Only Us P36/37) my bold

I make that a period of 140,000 years. That's a very slow mutation...

Chomsky makes an explicit claim on page forty about what must have evolved:

Chomsky said:
Any account of language must come to grips with what has evolved. In our tripartite framework, that works out naturally as each of the three components we sketched earlier: (1) the combinatorial operator Merge along with word-like atomic elements, roughly the "CPU" of human language syntax; and the two interfaces, (2) the sensorimotor interface that is part of language's system for externalisation, including vocal learning and production; and (3) the conceptual - intentional interface, for thought.
(Why Only Us page 40) my bold

So that's three distinct systems none of which are sufficient but all of which are necessary for language use. In a single mutation? I rather think not.

Later in the book, there is an extended discussion of precisely when language developed which concludes that:

Chomsky said:
That leaves us with about 130,000 years, or approximately 5,000 to 6,000 generations of time for evolutionary change. This is not "overnight in one generation" as some have (incorrectly) inferred, but neither is it on the scale of geological eons.
(Why Only Us P157) my bold

Normally I'd assume that the point that a 'single mutation' would be 'overnight in a single generation and thus Chomsky is explicitly stating that you are one of those who has made an incorrect inference (or at least read someone making it).

Moving on to describe the biology that he thinks underpins the change between possessing the basic properties for a Universal Grammar and not, Chomsky focuses on the completion of a ring of fibre tracts that he thinks would allow syntactic processing by instantiating a 'merge' workspace. Now. I'm not going to comment on how credible this idea is, although God knows, I have an opinion.

Instead, I'll merely point out that his conclusion is that:

Chomsky said:
Speculatively, along with the human developmental evidence, this suggests that a fully wired word-like atom to Merge workspace "ring" is necessary to enable the Basic Property. What is the evolutionary point? It's very nearly a literal "Missing Link" While we cannot be certain, if it is indeed the case that human syntax requires a fully wired "ring" then the notion that some "small rewiring of the brain " resulted in a fully fully working syntactic system with Merge might not be so far off the mark. A small genomic change in a growth factor for one of the fibres , along with proper fibre tract guidance, might suffice, and there's certainly enough time for it. This also fits in well with Ramus and Fisher's point(2009) point that a small neural change of this type could lead to large phenotypic consequences - without much evolution required, and not all that much time. (WOU P164) my bold

To avoid confusion, Chomsky asserts that the Basic Property is being able to provide "an unbounded array of hierarchically structured expressions that receive interpretations at two interfaces, sensorimotor for externalization and conceptual-intentional for mental processes" it's basically Universal Grammar lite.

So, to sum up. Your claim is that that some hypothesize that the language capacity arose because of a single mutation. You have made it clear that Noam Chomsky is 'some theorists'. Chomsky is quite clearly arguing that the final steps of the evolution of a capacity to instantiate a generative grammar could happen really quite rapidly. By 'quite rapidly', he is quite explicit that he means a window of a mere 5-6,000 generations and equally explicit that, and I'll say it again: This is not "overnight in one generation" as some have (incorrectly) inferred Even if he were arguing that it was a single mutation, which he very explicitly isn't, he's delightfully clear that the closure of the 'fibre ring' is just the final step of a very,very long process across at least three distinct systems that can be traced back to the ancestors of bloody songbirds, or as I like to call them, dinosaurs. That's as far from

you said:
Some hypothesize that the language capacity arose because of a single mutation.

As you can get.

So you might have faith you are right. I have the book you haven't read in my hands. I freely admit that the internet seems to have misunderstood it too, but that's no excuse. Anyone who gets their absolute certainty from secondary sources and doesn't argue their case deserves what happens next.
 
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Actually, I was being polite; I'm quite certain that there are no serious scholars today who 'hypothesize that the language capacity arose because of a single mutation'. You are making this claim, please justify it with evidence.

You actually were being very stupid and still are.

Look it up if you do not believe me.

Then apologize.

I'm very sorry...:D
 
Actually, I was being polite; I'm quite certain that there are no serious scholars today who 'hypothesize that the language capacity arose because of a single mutation'. You are making this claim, please justify it with evidence.

You actually were being very stupid and still are.

Look it up if you do not believe me.

Then apologize.

I'm very sorry...:D

Heh, you're new here. Once the Grand Proclamation of Obvious TruthTM is made, he never backs down. Never. Might as well be a law, transcending subject matter, all evidence to the contrary, repeated careful explanations, etc...
 
Nowhere do you include any of Chomsky's thoughts on the origin of the language capacity.

The origin and the evolution are two things.

Keep looking. You may find his ideas on the matter. I probably have the book you reference so possibly I will look at it later.
 
I'm very sorry...:D

Heh, you're new here. Once the Grand Proclamation of Obvious TruthTM is made, he never backs down. Never. Might as well be a law, transcending subject matter, all evidence to the contrary, repeated careful explanations, etc...

Thanks for the warning. So a quote of Chomsky explicitly refuting him isn't going to be good enough? Oh well, one of my fellow expat mods - who is actually a proper real expert on Chomsky and all matters linguistic - will be along at some point and I'm sure he can explain his mistake better than I.
 
Nowhere do you include any of Chomsky's thoughts on the origin of the language capacity.

The origin and the evolution are two things.

Keep looking. You may find his ideas on the matter. I probably have the book you reference so possibly I will look at it later.

How precisely is this:

Any account of language must come to grips with what has evolved. In our tripartite framework, that works out naturally as each of the three components we sketched earlier: (1) the combinatorial operator Merge along with word-like atomic elements, roughly the "CPU" of human language syntax; and the two interfaces, (2) the sensorimotor interface that is part of language's system for externalisation, including vocal learning and production; and (3) the conceptual - intentional interface, for thought.

not Chomsky's thoughts on the origin of the language capacity? He's explicit: there are three parts. Are you actually claiming that a single mutation can be responsible for all three? because if not, that's three origins.
 
Go to YouTube and watch the video entitled: Noam Chomsky - The Emergence of Language.

Beginning at about 2:10 Chomsky states how the language capacity probably arose in a single individual. That would mean a single mutation to "rewire the brain" as Chomsky describes it.
 
Go to YouTube and watch the video entitled: Noam Chomsky - The Emergence of Language.

Beginning at about 2:10 Chomsky states how the language capacity probably arose in a single individual. That would mean a single mutation to "rewire the brain" as Chomsky describes it.


He does indeed, which is extremely odd, because in his book he is explicit that:

That leaves us with about 130,000 years, or approximately 5,000 to 6,000 generations of time for evolutionary change. This is not "overnight in one generation" as some have (incorrectly) inferred, but neither is it on the scale of geological eons.

Indeed, as I also quoted earlier, he talks in great detail about this particular closure of the Merge ring, concluding that:

Speculatively, along with the human developmental evidence, this suggests that a fully wired word-like atom to Merge workspace "ring" is necessary to enable the Basic Property. What is the evolutionary point? It's very nearly a literal "Missing Link" While we cannot be certain, if it is indeed the case that human syntax requires a fully wired "ring" then the notion that some "small rewiring of the brain " resulted in a fully fully working syntactic system with Merge might not be so far off the mark. A small genomic change in a growth factor for one of the fibres , along with proper fibre tract guidance, might suffice, and there's certainly enough time for it. This also fits in well with Ramus and Fisher's point(2009) point that a small neural change of this type could lead to large phenotypic consequences - without much evolution required, and not all that much time.

In the book, he's clear, quite correctly, that merely having a genetic or epigenetic change in expression is not enough. Merely having growth, without both guidance and mechanisms for linking would not be enough. In short, in the book he recognises that a single event would not be enough and it would have to be a process. He's also quite clear that it's not a mutation. In the video he is much less careful.

So yes, unbelievably, Chomsky does seem to be making a claim about the Basic Property, (but not language) even if in doing so he makes the very mistake he explicitly warns about. He is also explicit that: "whatever happened, unless there is some mechanism that biology hasn't discovered yet, whatever happened would be some rewiring of the brain, some mutation..." Of course, there are rather a lot of other potential mechanisms here, for example epigenetics, boring old neural plasticity or indeed the 'Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind' described by Jaynes and picked up by Dennett in his review 'Julian Jayne's Software archaeology' as an description of the development of not language but intentionality.

Either way, the fact is that however badly Chomsky misrepresents even his own position, he is saying it. However, that brings us to the question of whether:

Some hypothesize that the language capacity arose because of a single mutation.

And he's certainly not saying that. He's explicit that language capacity arose over many systems and a very long period of time. The final completion of the 'fibre ring' he describes here is merely one more step in the process and allows for "an unbounded array of hierarchically structured expressions that receive interpretations at two interfaces, sensorimotor for externalization and conceptual-intentional for mental processes". This is not language itself, but merely another precursor of it. Another step among many and one that is itself a precursor of a generative grammar, symbolic thought and so on.

The fact is that language capacity rests on a vast range of steps both genetic and for want of a better word, mimetic steps. To talk of it arising because of a single event is still something no serious theorist would say. Chomsky is defending a dramatically cut down version of his Universal Grammar, The Basic Property, and he'd be the first to make it explicit that neither the UG nor the BP are language, they are steps towards language. Sure you can pick out any step towards language, the Fox P2 gene for example and call this the most important step, but there's no principled way of defending that claim.

So yes, you are not as wrong as I thought you were, which is an improvement. but you are far from right.

And as for Chomsky, Maggie was right about him...
 
You simply confuse what Chomsky says about the origin and what he says about evolution from that and what he thinks would be necessary for language to exist.

He most certainly believes the language capacity likely arose by a single mutation in a single individual.

And I provided evidence of Chomsky saying it.

Case closed.
 
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