Democracy finished in California

[Shadowy Man]

I forget the details but some country treated cars differently based on emissions--but traced to the source. A Tesla? owner objected because his car wasn't considered green. IIRC it had emissions equivalent to a 20mpg car.

Citation?

I'm not finding the 20mpg part, but the rest of it:

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/08/tes...ts-singapores-carbon-emissions-surcharge.html

Yes, we agree that electric cars contribute to carbon emissions when charged from a grid powered by fossil fuels, but the question was a comparison of emissions versus gas powered cars. Other posters are showing what I’ve also found in the web that overall electric vehicles contribute less.

 

[KeepTalking]

True, but only if the laws already made open delegations to the executive that allow for very broad bans like this - in which case, constitutional or not, the damage to the separation of powers is already done, and the governor is just showing an example of it.

The Executive being checked by the Judicial being checked by the Legislative being checked by the Executive is how our Democracy is designed to work.

The Executive grabbing power from the legislature and leaving it up to the courts to decide is not how it's supposed to work. If the courts stop the power grab, then yes, the backup system worked when something already failed, and the damage is fixed. The problem is if the courts do not stop him - which they might not.

Whether or not you believe that it is how the system is supposed to work, it is definitely how the system is designed to work. It is not a backup system, it is the system.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

True, but only if the laws already made open delegations to the executive that allow for very broad bans like this - in which case, constitutional or not, the damage to the separation of powers is already done, and the governor is just showing an example of it.

The Executive being checked by the Judicial being checked by the Legislative being checked by the Executive is how our Democracy is designed to work.

The Executive grabbing power from the legislature and leaving it up to the courts to decide is not how it's supposed to work. If the courts stop the power grab, then yes, the backup system worked when something already failed, and the damage is fixed. The problem is if the courts do not stop him - which they might not.

Whether or not you believe that it is how the system is supposed to work, it is definitely how the system is designed to work. It is not a backup system, it is the system.

With that criterion, you might say that Congress passing unconstitutional laws being declared unconstitutional by the SCOTUS is how the system was designed. No, it was not. The whole system has subsystems that sometimes fail and so there is a backup to prevent things from getting worse. But unconstitutional laws or illegal EO's then declared so by the courts is not how the system was designed to work. It's a back up system undoing the damage caused by the malfunction of another system, all parts of a bigger system.

 

[KeepTalking]

Whether or not you believe that it is how the system is supposed to work, it is definitely how the system is designed to work. It is not a backup system, it is the system.

With that criterion, you might say that Congress passing unconstitutional laws being declared unconstitutional by the SCOTUS is how the system was designed. No, it was not. The whole system has subsystems that sometimes fail and so there is a backup to prevent things from getting worse. But unconstitutional laws or illegal EO's then declared so by the courts is not how the system was designed to work. It's a back up system undoing the damage caused by the malfunction of another system, all parts of a bigger system.

It seems that we are at an impasse, then. The only response I can provide would be to repeat myself, so I don't see us coming to an agreement here.

ETA: At least we have already agreed that this in no way portends the end of Democracy.

 

[fromderinside]

Democracy finished in California

It's hilarious to read on here about the republican threat to democracy when here in California, we really do have an actual tyrant in control;


Gov. Gavin Newsom on Wednesday issued an executive order requiring the sale of all new passenger vehicles to be zero-emission by 2035, a move the governor says would achieve a significant reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, improve air quality, and move the state further away from relying on climate change-causing fossil fuels. “This is the most impactful step our state can take to fight climate change,” Newsom said.


SacBee

​

Anybody complaining about all those horses mucking up streets? Got ride of all those fine people with pans and brooms following them about. Yeah, dictator, sure. Have a horse puppy.

 

[Derec]

I'm not finding the 20mpg part, but the rest of it:

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/08/tes...ts-singapores-carbon-emissions-surcharge.html

222 g/km lifetime emissions is still lower than vast majority of gasoline cars and much lower than cars Tesla S competes against, the 5 series Beamers, E class Mercs and the like. It's equivalent to a 60 mpg car, not a 20 mpg car.


It may be that Singapore has unusually strict rules or simply that they are trying to shake down Tesla owners because they know they have money.

 

[Derec]

Note that these numbers are a factor of the power on the grid. Nuke-powered and hydro-powered EVs are quite green. Coal powered EVs are not at all green.

They are far less green. Still greener than gasoline and diesel.

Note that what really counts is the type of powerplants built to cover the new load--and we aren't building nuke or hydro plants. It's a small percent solar/wind and the rest fossil fuel.

But within the fossil group there has been a movement from coal to natural gas, which is much cleaner, both in regard to CO₂ emissions, but especially regarding pollutants that can directly affect human health.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Note that these numbers are a factor of the power on the grid. Nuke-powered and hydro-powered EVs are quite green. Coal powered EVs are not at all green.

They are far less green. Still greener than gasoline and diesel.

Note that what really counts is the type of powerplants built to cover the new load--and we aren't building nuke or hydro plants. It's a small percent solar/wind and the rest fossil fuel.

But within the fossil group there has been a movement from coal to natural gas, which is much cleaner, both in regard to CO₂ emissions, but especially regarding pollutants that can directly affect human health.
View attachment 29573

Which doesn't change the fact that we should be going after coal plants before we bother with gasoline engines.

 

[Jarhyn]

So much bullshit spinning around in here. Analysis shows that even the most efficient of consumer vehicles with ICE engines are less efficient than NG->electrical.

Coal is a bit of a wash, but seriously, FUCK COAL.