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Demystifying Determinism

I am clearly pointing out that choice requires two or more realizable options
And then trying to pretend that the word "realizable" only requires the  logical possibility, not reified possibility, the fact that it was possible "in approximal simulation".

Pretend? 'Realizable options' means that something can actually happen.

Meanwhile, to repeat, determinism does not permit alternate actions in any given instance in time.

This is according to the given definition of determinism; your own definition entails no randomness/ deviation or alternate actions.

Not in logical terms, or ''approximal simulations' - a Strawman - but as physical actions in terms of the way the system works: no deviations, no randomness, no alternate actions.

Choice, of course, requires that any of a number of options can be chosen in any instance of decision making.....which, given the conditions of your own definition of determinism, is an impossibility within a deterministic system.
 
It seems I'm not expressing myself clearly.

Free will and moral/legal responsibility go hand in hand. The "principle of alternate possibilities" (PAP) asserts that if it was our only choice, then we cannot be held responsible.
This isn't necessary. You're preaching to the choir.

When DBT argues for the "no choice principle" he is referring to the PAP. If determinism leaves us with no choice, then no one is ever responsible for their behavior.

I know this is what DBT argues but it is not what he practices.

Every time DBT expresses irritation/outrage because he feels someone is misrepresenting him or they simply refuse to "get" what he's saying, he's holding them responsible. He just refuses to accept that's what he's doing because in his ideological mindset 'responsibility' cannot exist in a deterministic universe.

This is what I mean when I say you and DBT don't disagree about the facts - you disagree about the words used to describe those facts.


You do in fact misrepresent what I say.....quite regularly. Which, obviously, becomes more than a little annoying.
 
You do in fact misrepresent what I say.....quite regularly. Which, obviously, becomes more than a little annoying.

Why do you find it necessary to point out your annoyance if, according to you, I had no choice in the matter?
 
Deliberation is a matter of information processing. The brain as an information processor represents some of that activity in conscious form as 'deliberation.' We as conscious entities experience it as thought.

So, now you see it.

See it? I've been repeating it in several different ways for about a year now.

Given determinism, the information processing activity of a brain is determined in each incremental state of the process leading to the conclusion, the inevitable decision and related action.

And now you double down on the assertion that you do see it.

Double down? I've been saying it all along.

No deviation. No alternative actions. Not in conscious thought or at any point in deliberation process, be it conscious or unconscious activity, nor the action that necessarily follows.

And now you triple down on the assertion that you not only see it but that it is also causally necessary.

That's odd.

A process of entailment, not free will.

And now you don't. Somehow you've made it disappear. It was right there in front of you. (1) The options being considered, (2) the action being chosen, and (3) the action being performed. All there. All necessarily happening. And now Poof! they are gone?

The options have only one possible outcome: the determined action. The process of deliberation, which is a process of entailment, leads to the inevitable action.

Harsh? Probably, but that's determinism.

Harsh? No. I don't think so. Free will is still (necessarily) just us (necessarily) deciding for ourselves what we (necessarily) will do. So, get comfortable with this insight, even if it is still new to you.

The events of the system, our environment, our brain - which does not operate on the principle of free will, but architecture, function and inputs - decides.

And what is decided had no alternatives. To label this as free will is false.

In order for free will to exist, things need to be freely willed.

Yet the system does not permit actions to be freely willed. All events, be they internal (us) or external are entailed by whatever is happening in our environment, to which the brain responds according to - not freely willed actions - but neural architecture and inputs.

Information processing, inner necessity and entailment, not free will.

The 'choice' is inevitable, as is the action that follows.

Okay, so you're going to try that magic trick again? And this part is "Now you see it".

Nothing more than the basics of determinism.



It's not a matter of choosing to do it or not.

And "Now you don't!". If a choice is inevitable then choosing is also inevitable.

The process is inevitable. The words you use don't change inevitability or the no choice principle of determinism.

If we live in a deterministic world, what we call 'decision making' is a process of entailment with only one possible outcome.
 
Pretend? 'Realizable options' means that something can actually happen.
Your use of "can" is where it jumps into "pretend" in fact.

You seem to fail to understand that "pretend" does not mean "logically unsound". When the "pretend" is logically unsound, THEN the "pretend" will is "unrealizable": this is 'can't'.

When the "pretending" is logically sound the "pretend" will is "realizable" and when the "pretend" will is inevitably on the course to reification the "will" is not actually so "pretend" but is rather "free to it's goal."
 
Deliberation is a matter of information processing. The brain as an information processor represents some of that activity in conscious form as 'deliberation.' We as conscious entities experience it as thought.

So, now you see it.

See it? I've been repeating it in several different ways for about a year now.

Given determinism, the information processing activity of a brain is determined in each incremental state of the process leading to the conclusion, the inevitable decision and related action.

And now you double down on the assertion that you do see it.

Double down? I've been saying it all along.

No deviation. No alternative actions. Not in conscious thought or at any point in deliberation process, be it conscious or unconscious activity, nor the action that necessarily follows.

And now you triple down on the assertion that you not only see it but that it is also causally necessary.

That's odd.

A process of entailment, not free will.

And now you don't. Somehow you've made it disappear. It was right there in front of you. (1) The options being considered, (2) the action being chosen, and (3) the action being performed. All there. All necessarily happening. And now Poof! they are gone?

The options have only one possible outcome: the determined action. The process of deliberation, which is a process of entailment, leads to the inevitable action.

Harsh? Probably, but that's determinism.

Harsh? No. I don't think so. Free will is still (necessarily) just us (necessarily) deciding for ourselves what we (necessarily) will do. So, get comfortable with this insight, even if it is still new to you.

The events of the system, our environment, our brain - which does not operate on the principle of free will, but architecture, function and inputs - decides.

And what is decided had no alternatives. To label this as free will is false.

In order for free will to exist, things need to be freely willed.

Yet the system does not permit actions to be freely willed. All events, be they internal (us) or external are entailed by whatever is happening in our environment, to which the brain responds according to - not freely willed actions - but neural architecture and inputs.

Information processing, inner necessity and entailment, not free will.

The 'choice' is inevitable, as is the action that follows.

Okay, so you're going to try that magic trick again? And this part is "Now you see it".

Nothing more than the basics of determinism.

It's not a matter of choosing to do it or not.

And "Now you don't!". If a choice is inevitable then choosing is also inevitable.

The process is inevitable. The words you use don't change inevitability or the no choice principle of determinism.

If we live in a deterministic world, what we call 'decision making' is a process of entailment with only one possible outcome.
It is right there in front of you, in your own words. The deliberation, the conscious thoughts, the choosing, and the choice. All present and accounted for in the deterministic unfolding of events.

When the deliberation is free of coercion and undue influence, it is a freely chosen "I will", which is all that free will requires. When the woman in the restaurant considers the alternate possibilities on the menu, and tells the waiter, "I will have the Chef Salad, please", she has done so of her own free will, which means simply that she was free to make that choice for herself, specifically free from coercion and undue influence.

And the fact that it is free will does not contradict the fact that every step was causally necessary from any prior point in time.

You only claim that it is not free will because you are using an irrational definition of free will. Your criteria is that they must be free of deterministic entailment. And, since there are no such events, you believe you have proved that free will does not exist.

But the free will that ordinary people understand and correctly use makes no reference to deterministic entailment. Ordinary free will requires no freedom from cause and effect. It only requires freedom from coercion and undue influence. And it is this ordinary free will that is used when assessing a person's responsibility for their actions.

By attacking ordinary free will you undermine personal responsibility, which is morally harmful to members of the human race.
 
Pretend? 'Realizable options' means that something can actually happen.
Your use of "can" is where it jumps into "pretend" in fact.

You seem to fail to understand that "pretend" does not mean "logically unsound". When the "pretend" is logically unsound, THEN the "pretend" will is "unrealizable": this is 'can't'.

When the "pretending" is logically sound the "pretend" will is "realizable" and when the "pretend" will is inevitably on the course to reification the "will" is not actually so "pretend" but is rather "free to it's goal."


No deviation, no randomness, all actions fixed by antecedents - according to the given definition - determines what can and cannot happen in any moment in time, if event A must happen then nothing else can happen in its stead, no possibility B, C, D, E.....just event A.
 
Deliberation is a matter of information processing. The brain as an information processor represents some of that activity in conscious form as 'deliberation.' We as conscious entities experience it as thought.

So, now you see it.

See it? I've been repeating it in several different ways for about a year now.

Given determinism, the information processing activity of a brain is determined in each incremental state of the process leading to the conclusion, the inevitable decision and related action.

And now you double down on the assertion that you do see it.

Double down? I've been saying it all along.

No deviation. No alternative actions. Not in conscious thought or at any point in deliberation process, be it conscious or unconscious activity, nor the action that necessarily follows.

And now you triple down on the assertion that you not only see it but that it is also causally necessary.

That's odd.

A process of entailment, not free will.

And now you don't. Somehow you've made it disappear. It was right there in front of you. (1) The options being considered, (2) the action being chosen, and (3) the action being performed. All there. All necessarily happening. And now Poof! they are gone?

The options have only one possible outcome: the determined action. The process of deliberation, which is a process of entailment, leads to the inevitable action.

Harsh? Probably, but that's determinism.

Harsh? No. I don't think so. Free will is still (necessarily) just us (necessarily) deciding for ourselves what we (necessarily) will do. So, get comfortable with this insight, even if it is still new to you.

The events of the system, our environment, our brain - which does not operate on the principle of free will, but architecture, function and inputs - decides.

And what is decided had no alternatives. To label this as free will is false.

In order for free will to exist, things need to be freely willed.

Yet the system does not permit actions to be freely willed. All events, be they internal (us) or external are entailed by whatever is happening in our environment, to which the brain responds according to - not freely willed actions - but neural architecture and inputs.

Information processing, inner necessity and entailment, not free will.

The 'choice' is inevitable, as is the action that follows.

Okay, so you're going to try that magic trick again? And this part is "Now you see it".

Nothing more than the basics of determinism.

It's not a matter of choosing to do it or not.

And "Now you don't!". If a choice is inevitable then choosing is also inevitable.

The process is inevitable. The words you use don't change inevitability or the no choice principle of determinism.

If we live in a deterministic world, what we call 'decision making' is a process of entailment with only one possible outcome.
It is right there in front of you, in your own words. The deliberation, the conscious thoughts, the choosing, and the choice. All present and accounted for in the deterministic unfolding of events.

When the deliberation is free of coercion and undue influence, it is a freely chosen "I will", which is all that free will requires. When the woman in the restaurant considers the alternate possibilities on the menu, and tells the waiter, "I will have the Chef Salad, please", she has done so of her own free will, which means simply that she was free to make that choice for herself, specifically free from coercion and undue influence.

And the fact that it is free will does not contradict the fact that every step was causally necessary from any prior point in time.

You only claim that it is not free will because you are using an irrational definition of free will. Your criteria is that they must be free of deterministic entailment. And, since there are no such events, you believe you have proved that free will does not exist.

But the free will that ordinary people understand and correctly use makes no reference to deterministic entailment. Ordinary free will requires no freedom from cause and effect. It only requires freedom from coercion and undue influence. And it is this ordinary free will that is used when assessing a person's responsibility for their actions.

By attacking ordinary free will you undermine personal responsibility, which is morally harmful to members of the human race.


Deliberation is never free of necessitation. It cannot be a matter of free will because it is the state and condition of the system that determines what happens in each and every moment in time as the system evolves without deviation.

Not because I happen to say it, just how determinism works.

Free will? Ridiculous.

'Ordinary people' don't have access to the necessary information of the system as it evolves. Our limited experience gives the impression that we could have freely chosen from a number of options as they are presented to us......yet, when considered in relation to how determinism works, that impression is clearly is an illusion and there was never the possibility of thinking or doing whatever must necessarily be thought and done: inner necessity.
 
No deviation, no randomness, all actions fixed by antecedents
This describes the situation in my post
determines what can and cannot happen in any moment in time
This does not.

It determines what WILL happen in any moment in time.

What determines what CAN happen at any IMAGINED point in imagined, but logically consistent time is simply the laws of physics DIVORCED from the initial condition and instead married to a different initial condition, and driven forward approximately.

if event A must happen then nothing else can happen in its stead
It is not that event A "must" happen. That's fatalism, not determinism.

Nothing of reality can in fact change that reality with it's complicated math can be represented mostly with some much simpler math that can be operated faster than the more complicated operations at 1 second per second, and that this can validate the logical selectability of a thing without actually selecting it for reification.

When this happens, an artifact satisfies the semantics of "can" without satisfying the semantics of "shall".
 
condition of the system that determines what happens in each and every moment in time as the system evolves without deviation
And the condition of the system determines that choices happen each and every moment in time as the system evolves without real deviations but while generating many approximal simulant logically sound deviations, from which the real activity will be selected, and inevitably must.
 
Deliberation is never free of necessitation.

That's my point. Deliberation necessarily happens, and all of the thoughts and feelings we have during deliberation necessarily happen as well. Causal necessity insures that choosing will happen and that we will be doing that choosing.

It cannot be a matter of free will because it is the state and condition of the system that determines what happens in each and every moment in time as the system evolves without deviation.

The only part of the system that actually determines what we will order for dinner is us. The rest of the system is busy doing other things. Deciding what we will order is happening locally, within our own brains. It is not happening globally.

Not because I happen to say it, just how determinism works.

Determinism works because all of the causal mechanisms, whether physical, biological, or rational, are presumed to be reliable within their own domain, and we can thus presume that every event is the reliable product of some specific combination of physical, biological, and/or rational causation.

Choosing what we will have for dinner involves us being physically there in the restaurant, with a physical menu in our hands. It also involves our biological need for food and the hunger we experience that reminds us it is time to eat. It also involves our personal dietary goals (like eating more fruits and veggies) and the recall of what we had for breakfast and lunch (an overdose of protein and fat), so we rationally choose the Salad instead of the juicy Steak.

Our will to order the Salad when we could have had the Steak was the inevitable result of physical, biological, and rational causation. Each playing its part in necessitating the choice.

Free will? Ridiculous.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, whether free will is real or not depends entirely upon the definition we choose for "free will".

If "free will" is simply us deciding for ourselves what we will order for dinner, free of coercion and undue influence, then obviously free will is quite real and a meaningful concept. (It's how the waiter knows who is responsible for the bill for our dinner).

But if "free will" requires freedom from physical, biological, and rational causation, then no such thing exists.

'Ordinary people' don't have access to the necessary information of the system as it evolves. Our limited experience gives the impression that we could have freely chosen from a number of options as they are presented to us......yet, when considered in relation to how determinism works, that impression is clearly is an illusion and there was never the possibility of thinking or doing whatever must necessarily be thought and done: inner necessity.

Actually, it is through our own experience that the human race evolved the logic and language of possibilities, specifically to deal with our lack of knowledge as to what will necessarily happen and what we will necessarily choose.

It's a simple logic. When we don't know for sure what "will" happen, we consider instead the things that we know for sure "can" happen. We change the "will" to "can", to keep the actualities separate from the possibilities, and to remind us that we are speaking of things that only exist within our imagination.

I don't know yet what I "will" order for dinner, but I know that I "can" order the Steak and I "can" order the Salad. I then estimate the likely outcomes of having the Steak versus the outcomes of having the Salad. Based on that evaluation, I decide that I "will" order the Salad, even though I "could have" ordered the Steak.

Both "I will order the Salad" and "I could have ordered the Steak" are true statements. And it will always be the case, whenever a choosing operation occurs in the causal chain, that there will be the single inevitable thing that I "would" do, and at least one other thing that I "could have" done.

As you point out, we do not have the necessary information to know in advance what we will do. Thus, we must, by logical necessity employ the logic and language of possibilities to productively deal with such matters of uncertainty.

It is not a matter of being ignorant of deterministic causation. We can certainly know in advance that, in principle, all events are reliably caused by prior events, such that every event will be causally necessary from any prior point in time. We just don't know in advance what specifically we will choose, until we've actually chosen it ourselves. For all practical purposes, it is our own thoughts and feelings that are causally determining that choice.

There is no other "system" that makes that choice for us. The only system making the actual choice is our own central nervous system. It is really and truly us, by our own brain, that is causally determining our choice. The suggestion that it is something else is a delusion, a self-induced hoax.
 
No deviation, no randomness, all actions fixed by antecedents
This describes the situation in my post


Now all you have to do is consider the consequences for choice and the notion of free will. ;)
determines what can and cannot happen in any moment in time
This does not.

It determines what WILL happen in any moment in time.

What will happen must happen. And in that moment of entailment, nothing else can happen. No alternative actions, no deviation.

A state where 'will happen' is equivalent to 'must necessarily happen.'
 
Deliberation is never free of necessitation.

That's my point. Deliberation necessarily happens, and all of the thoughts and feelings we have during deliberation necessarily happen as well. Causal necessity insures that choosing will happen and that we will be doing that choosing.

There are no deviations at no point or incremental step of the deliberation process, where the ensuing action is a forgone conclusion from the beginning.

Which is more a case of entailment than 'deliberation.'

Deliberation, considering options, as a subjective experience, a phenomena of consciousness, an illusion imbedded within the fact of a fixed process with a fixed output.

That alone negates free will.
 
consequences for choice and the notion of free will.
Yes, that choice is a causally necessary event and that wills will necessarily either be free or will necessarily not be free, but the wills will be one or the other and not both.

What will happen must happen
Such that a choice will be made, and must, and that there is no choice over whether that is true.

You must live with the consequences and must accept the responsibilities.

nothing else can happen
And then you fell off.

Again, a lot of things CAN happen. Not everything that can happen must, because CAN happens in the domain of "pretend", specifically in the domain "pretend, but still logically consistent to the axioms of math".

One thing that we all wonder whether it can happen or not is whether you are good enough at math to figure out the difference between saying 10^10^10= 10^100 and saying 5=7. One of these is logically true and the other is not.

The issue here is that there are not 10^100 of anything at any moment in time anywhere. This is why I brought up the logical consistency of doing math on a ridiculous number of something: because the universe is logically consistent, we can identify certain things that are only  accidentally not true, noting them separately from things that are logically impossible in any system.

The reason for this
is because of those things only accidentally not true, we can, given our own personal "purposes" make it true.

The same thing goes with things which are only "accidentally" true, within the realm of logical possibility insofar as personal purpose can cause those things to cease being true; nothing stops it from happening except the universe being "just so"...

And if you want to claim that universes, systems of physics upon a field of some sort, can only be just-so, then we'll, I'm sure you know why Atheists ridicule the Bible as just-so stories.
 
Deliberation necessarily happens, and all of the thoughts and feelings we have during deliberation necessarily happen as well. Causal necessity insures that choosing will happen and that we will be doing that choosing.

There are no deviations at no point or incremental step of the deliberation process, where the ensuing action is a forgone conclusion from the beginning.

It is a foregone conclusion that there will necessarily be deliberation and that we will be doing it. That's determinism.

Which is more a case of entailment than 'deliberation.'

It's not one or the other. It is both. Deliberation will certainly happen exactly as it is entailed to happen. And we will be the only object in the universe that will be performing this deliberation.

Further, if it is also entailed that our deliberation will be free of coercion and undue influence, then it is entailed that it will be a choice of our own free will.

On the other hand, if it is entailed that our deliberation will be subject to someone pointing a gun at us, forcing us to submit our will to his, then it is entailed that the choice will be coerced, and not of our own free will.

Deliberation, considering options, as a subjective experience, a phenomena of consciousness, an illusion imbedded within the fact of a fixed process with a fixed output.

Deliberation is a logical function, just like addition and subtraction. It is actually happening in physical reality.

If we present someone with a column of numbers, and they hand us the sum, then we know that addition actually took place. There is no "illusion of addition", it really happened.

In the same fashion, if we hand someone a menu in the restaurant, and they tell the waiter what they will have for dinner, we know that choosing actually took place in physical reality. There is no "illusion of deliberate choosing", it really happened.

The notion that something that actually happened did not happen would be a delusion.
 
consequences for choice and the notion of free will.
Yes, that choice is a causally necessary event and that wills will necessarily either be free or will necessarily not be free, but the wills will be one or the other and not both.

You have yet to show that there is a choice when there are no alternatives. If there is only one possible action in any given instance time -according to your own definition of determinism/ no deviation/no randomness/no alternate actions - there are no alternate options to choose from.

There is only the entailed action in any given instance in time as the system evolves without randomness or deviation.

If it is entailed, set, fixed, there are no alternatives.

Without alternatives, there is no choice. Which makes the process of decision making a matter of information processing and entailment, not choice.

What is entailed is not freely willed or chosen.
 
Deliberation necessarily happens, and all of the thoughts and feelings we have during deliberation necessarily happen as well. Causal necessity insures that choosing will happen and that we will be doing that choosing.

Deliberation is information processing. The brain as a rational system processes information and produces actions according to neural architecture, inputs and memory. Given determinism, the output is entailed not by free will, but the evolving or unfolding state of the system; inputs interaction with memory through the activity of neural networks.

Rational and adaptive if functional, irrational and maladaptive if damaged, either way, free will it ain't
 
You have yet to show that there is a choice when there are no alternatives
Clearly there are alternatives. On the menu there are 23 lines. Each of these lines is an "alternative". Clearly they exist. They are right there in literal black and white. At Bucca's, these alternatives are not even representatives, they are already-reified foods sitting before you.

Will you pick them? No. But they are objects and they are there and it is logically true that if you made a copy, mind controlled the copy of yourself in that copy of the universe with an electrode to walk forward and pick up a plate and walk to the cashier and say "I want this pile of olives for dinner please" they would say "ok, that will be 5 dollars for the uh... Salad?".

Indeed this logical truth about this object as pertains to its interactions in a universe that doesn't even have to materially exist but which can nonetheless be logically accessed, is enough. It's about whether it works out in a math problem.

All that is required here is that the numbers check out when our system emulates that other system, which itself operates on the same macrophysics as ours does more or less.
 
Deliberation necessarily happens, and all of the thoughts and feelings we have during deliberation necessarily happen as well. Causal necessity insures that choosing will happen and that we will be doing that choosing.

Deliberation is information processing.

Of course it is. Specifically, deliberation is the process of choosing from several alternatives what we will do, as happens in the restaurant when we order dinner from a menu.

There are many other forms of information processing, such as the simple math operation of adding a column of numbers to produce a sum. All of it is information processing.

But deliberation is specifically about choosing, not about adding. We can't make either of them disappear by sweeping them under the generalization of "information processing".

The brain as a rational system processes information and produces actions according to neural architecture, inputs and memory. Given determinism, the output is entailed not by free will, but the evolving or unfolding state of the system; inputs interaction with memory through the activity of neural networks.

Given determinism, it will either be causally entailed that we will be free to choose for ourselves what we will order for dinner (free will), or that we will be coerced or otherwise unduly influenced to make a different choice, one that we would not choose for ourselves (unfree will).
 
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