Deplorables

[skepticalbip]

Do you also condemn Muslims for their beliefs that condone harm to others?

All Muslims who believe in honor killings should be condemned. But not all Muslims believe in honor killings.

Right, are you saying also that the only thing that anyone should criticize JW for is their refusal to allow invasive medical treatment?

 

[laughing dog]

Derec said "she can count herself lucky they didn't honor kill her". If it's extremely uncommon, then it's really not luck, now is it? If it's very common, then perhaps it was luck. So, in the relevance of the quote and my response, how common it is was very important.

As to your question whether it should be a concern in the US, of course it should. As should any murder and domestic abuse. You say there are twenty-five honor killings per year. Assuming that number is true, it likely represents a small portion of domestic murders in this country, and certainly a small percentage of total murders. However, it seems to get a disproportionate amount of attention primarily because of the anti-Muslim rhetoric that goes on in this country.

The Muslim population in the US is about 1% of the US population and the 25 honor killings/yr is from the US Department of Justice.

Let's assume that there were a Christian, Shinto, Jewish, or Hindu sect in the US that made up 1% of the US population and they were killing 25 of their children each year because of the teachings of their sect, do you imagine that there would be any criticism of them? Would you find them worthy of criticism?

I suppose it is PC to observe that you have completely ignored the point of the disproportionate attention. And that it ignores the obvious difference between criticizing a practice followed by a small number of people vs the criticizing an entire set of beliefs. For example, how come Catholicism is not routinely criticized because of the pedophilia of a small portion of its priest the way the anti-Muslim hysterics carry on?

 

[skepticalbip]

The Muslim population in the US is about 1% of the US population and the 25 honor killings/yr is from the US Department of Justice.

Let's assume that there were a Christian, Shinto, Jewish, or Hindu sect in the US that made up 1% of the US population and they were killing 25 of their children each year because of the teachings of their sect, do you imagine that there would be any criticism of them? Would you find them worthy of criticism?

I suppose it is PC to observe that you have completely ignored the point of the disproportionate attention. And that it ignores the obvious difference between criticizing a practice followed by a small number of people vs the criticizing an entire set of beliefs. For example, how come Catholicism is not routinely criticized because of the pedophilia of a small portion of its priest the way the anti-Muslim hysterics carry on?

Maybe you haven't noticed but this is an atheist forum. Most people here recognize that all religions are not only stupid but destructive in that they trap their followers into a life of unquestioning lack of rational thought. Why Islam but not other religions is excused from this view by some here must be idiotic political correctness unless you would like to point out why Islam is such a wonderful belief system.

 

[laughing dog]

I suppose it is PC to observe that you have completely ignored the point of the disproportionate attention. And that it ignores the obvious difference between criticizing a practice followed by a small number of people vs the criticizing an entire set of beliefs. For example, how come Catholicism is not routinely criticized because of the pedophilia of a small portion of its priest the way the anti-Muslim hysterics carry on?

Maybe you haven't noticed but this is an atheist forum. Most people here recognize that all religions are not only stupid but destructive in that they trap their followers into a life of unquestioning lack of rational thought. Why Islam but not other religions is excused from this view by some here must be idiotic political correctness unless you would like to point out why Islam is such a wonderful belief system.

Perhaps I was unclear, because your response does not address what I meant. I am not defending Islam or any theism. Nor was Shadow Man. His obvious point (and I thought mine) was the people (which extends beyond this forum) are disproportionally focused on the misdeeds of a small portion of Islam. Please try to focus on that instead of giving examples of avoiding rational thought and the usual boring alt-SJW "PC" memes of which you are so fond.

 

[skepticalbip]

Maybe you haven't noticed but this is an atheist forum. Most people here recognize that all religions are not only stupid but destructive in that they trap their followers into a life of unquestioning lack of rational thought. Why Islam but not other religions is excused from this view by some here must be idiotic political correctness unless you would like to point out why Islam is such a wonderful belief system.

Perhaps I was unclear, because your response does not address what I meant. I am not defending Islam or any theism. Nor was Shadow Man. His obvious point (and I thought mine) was the people (which extends beyond this forum) are disproportionally focused on the misdeeds of a small portion of Islam. Please try to focus on that instead of giving examples of avoiding rational thought and the usual boring alt-SJW "PC" memes of which you are so fond.

Again, you only choose to look at and criticize those who attack Islam. Outside this forum, the Muslims attack and criticize Christians and Christians attack and criticize Muslims. Why is it you are incensed by only one of these rather than both or neither?

 

[laughing dog]

Perhaps I was unclear, because your response does not address what I meant. I am not defending Islam or any theism. Nor was Shadow Man. His obvious point (and I thought mine) was the people (which extends beyond this forum) are disproportionally focused on the misdeeds of a small portion of Islam. Please try to focus on that instead of giving examples of avoiding rational thought and the usual boring alt-SJW "PC" memes of which you are so fond.

Again, you only choose to look at and criticize those who attack Islam. Outside this forum, the Muslims attack and criticize Christians and Christians attack and criticize Muslims. Why is it you only see (or only criticize) one of these?

It seems it is impossible for you to address the actual content of a post but the straw men of your imagination.

Please point out what you don't understand about " the people (which extends beyond this forum) are disproportionally focused on the misdeeds of a small portion of Islam". That was what I pointing out. Since that was the issue I was addressing, there was no need to address other points. As my mother used to say - misbehavior by others does not justify your misbehavior. Saying "But those scary Muslims do it too" does not provide any justification for the issue in discussion: the disproportionate focus on Islam based on the misdeeds of a small fraction.

Nothing is immune to criticism. But it takes a special type of intellect to paint broad brush criticism thousands or millions or billions of people based on the deeds of a relatively small fraction of them while simultaneously complaining millions of different people are being painted with a different broad brush based on the relatively small fraction of those people. For example, the same rhetoric you use to describe followers of Islam (lacking in rational thought) is pretty much identical to some of the rhetoric used to describe the followers of Trump. Hmmm.

 

[LordKiran]

Again, you only choose to look at and criticize those who attack Islam. Outside this forum, the Muslims attack and criticize Christians and Christians attack and criticize Muslims. Why is it you only see (or only criticize) one of these?

It seems it is impossible for you to address the actual content of a post but the straw men of your imagination.

Please point out what you don't understand about " the people (which extends beyond this forum) are disproportionally focused on the misdeeds of a small portion of Islam". That was what I pointing out. Since that was the issue I was addressing, there was no need to address other points. As my mother used to say - misbehavior by others does not justify your misbehavior. Saying "But those scary Muslims do it too" does not provide any justification for the issue in discussion: the disproportionate focus on Islam based on the misdeeds of a small fraction.

Nothing is immune to criticism. But it takes a special type of intellect to paint broad brush criticism thousands or millions or billions of people based on the deeds of a relatively small fraction of them while simultaneously complaining millions of different people are being painted with a different broad brush based on the relatively small fraction of those people. For example, the same rhetoric you use to describe followers of Islam (lacking in rational thought) is pretty much identical to some of the rhetoric used to describe the followers of Trump. Hmmm.

So what we can get from this is that skeptic didn't listen to his mother. Tsk Tsk, for shame.

 

[Shadowy Man]

All Muslims who believe in honor killings should be condemned. But not all Muslims believe in honor killings.

Right, are you saying also that the only thing that anyone should criticize JW for is their refusal to allow invasive medical treatment?

That's really outside the scope of my line of reasoning.

If you want to compare all Jehovah's witnesses to all Muslims that's going to take a while. I've never met any Jehovah's witnesses and know next to nothing about who they are or what they believe in. However, I've met and know many Muslims and all of them that I've met have been just as rational and anti-extremism as I am. No doubt there are extremist Muslims out there, but my arms are too weak to carry such a broad brush.

 

[Derec]

I suppose it is PC to observe that you have completely ignored the point of the disproportionate attention. And that it ignores the obvious difference between criticizing a practice followed by a small number of people vs the criticizing an entire set of beliefs. For example, how come Catholicism is not routinely criticized because of the pedophilia of a small portion of its priest the way the anti-Muslim hysterics carry on?

Muslims who have favorable views of honor killings are hardly a "a small number of people".

This girl's family is Egyptian btw.

Taken from a Pew survey.

Do you think Catholics have similar attitude toward pedophilia or are you just engaging in one of your usual islamophilic false equivalences?

 

[Axulus]

The Muslim population in the US is about 1% of the US population and the 25 honor killings/yr is from the US Department of Justice.

Let's assume that there were a Christian, Shinto, Jewish, or Hindu sect in the US that made up 1% of the US population and they were killing 25 of their children each year because of the teachings of their sect, do you imagine that there would be any criticism of them? Would you find them worthy of criticism?

I suppose it is PC to observe that you have completely ignored the point of the disproportionate attention. And that it ignores the obvious difference between criticizing a practice followed by a small number of people vs the criticizing an entire set of beliefs. For example, how come Catholicism is not routinely criticized because of the pedophilia of a small portion of its priest the way the anti-Muslim hysterics carry on?

What percent of Catholics do you believe excuse or believe that the rape of children is sometimes justified by a priest?

 

[barbos]

25 honor killings with only 1% of population seems a lot.
If we scale to whole population then it will be 2500 per year, which would be a major fraction of car accident death which I believe is around 30k per year.
Also keep in mind that only young women are subjected to honor killing then it becomes very comparable.

 

[laughing dog]

I suppose it is PC to observe that you have completely ignored the point of the disproportionate attention. And that it ignores the obvious difference between criticizing a practice followed by a small number of people vs the criticizing an entire set of beliefs. For example, how come Catholicism is not routinely criticized because of the pedophilia of a small portion of its priest the way the anti-Muslim hysterics carry on?

What percent of Catholics do you believe excuse or believe that the rape of children is sometimes justified by a priest?

And you think this is even remotely relevant to my point because....?

 

[Derec]

And you think this is even remotely relevant to my point because....?

Because you compared the Catholic priest child abuse (not supported by Catholics) with honor killings (widely supported by Muslims). Try to keep up, will you?

 

[skepticalbip]

And you think this is even remotely relevant to my point because....?

Because you compared the Catholic priest child abuse (not supported by Catholics) with honor killings (widely supported by Muslims). Try to keep up, will you?

And further, in the Christian belief system pedophilia is a sin (the reason it is criticized by Catholics). In the Islamic belief system, honor killings are a duty (the reason many Muslims don't criticize it).

The Catholic priests are defying their belief system's teachings. The Muslims are complying with their belief system's teachings.

 

[laughing dog]

And you think this is even remotely relevant to my point because....?

Because you compared the Catholic priest child abuse (not supported by Catholics) with honor killings (widely supported by Muslims).

No I didn't. I compared the response to honor killing relative to the frequency in the population to the response to Catholic priest child abuse relative to the frequency in the population.
Thank you for an example of deplorable reading comprehension.

- - - Updated - - -

Because you compared the Catholic priest child abuse (not supported by Catholics) with honor killings (widely supported by Muslims). Try to keep up, will you?

And further, in the Christian belief system pedophilia is a sin (the reason it is criticized by Catholics). In the Islamic belief system, honor killings are a duty (the reason many Muslims don't criticize it).

And yet, many Catholics did not criticize it. And many Muslims do criticize honor killings.

Thank you for an example of deplorable reasoning.

 

[thebeave]

Yet another "Deplorable".

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/21/us/mississippi-church-fire.html

The authorities charged a man on Wednesday with setting fire last month to a predominantly African-American church in Greenville, Miss., where “Vote Trump” was found spray-painted on the side of the building.

The man, Andrew McClinton, 45, of Leland, Miss., was charged with arson of a place of worship in the first degree, a felony, Warren Strain, a spokesman for the Mississippi Department of Public Safety, said in an interview on Wednesday.

Mr. McClinton, who is black, was a member of the church, Hopewell Missionary Baptist, at the time of the fire on Nov. 1, Mr. Strain said.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Yet another "Deplorable".

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/21/us/mississippi-church-fire.html

The authorities charged a man on Wednesday with setting fire last month to a predominantly African-American church in Greenville, Miss., where “Vote Trump” was found spray-painted on the side of the building.

The man, Andrew McClinton, 45, of Leland, Miss., was charged with arson of a place of worship in the first degree, a felony, Warren Strain, a spokesman for the Mississippi Department of Public Safety, said in an interview on Wednesday.

Mr. McClinton, who is black, was a member of the church, Hopewell Missionary Baptist, at the time of the fire on Nov. 1, Mr. Strain said.

I bet he was trying to get insurance money. Forget jail. They should make him CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I suppose it is PC to observe that you have completely ignored the point of the disproportionate attention. And that it ignores the obvious difference between criticizing a practice followed by a small number of people vs the criticizing an entire set of beliefs. For example, how come Catholicism is not routinely criticized because of the pedophilia of a small portion of its priest the way the anti-Muslim hysterics carry on?

Muslims who have favorable views of honor killings are hardly a "a small number of people".

This girl's family is Egyptian btw.

Taken from a Pew survey.

Do you think Catholics have similar attitude toward pedophilia or are you just engaging in one of your usual islamophilic false equivalences?

From article: "In two countries – Afghanistan (60%) and Iraq (60%) – do majorities say honor killings of women are often or sometimes justified, while only in Afghanistan does a majority (59%) say the same about executing men who have allegedly engaged in pre- or extra-marital sex."

Bold emphasis added. The display sets up a misleading false dichotomy in the readers mind. For some reason, there are missing categories. So one would expect more honor killings to be rejected than as a % of total honor killings. For example, in Indonesia 82% may say never honor kill. Another 10% may say dont honor kill most of the time. Another 8% may say they think it's wrong sometimes. It is difficult to say without seeing the hidden numbers.

 

[Derec]

And one more:
Michigan police: Hijab incident didn't happen; charges possible

 

[TSwizzle]

And there was an incident on a plane the other day. Ivanka Trump was seated with her children and a gay lawyer started harassing her. So bad was the abuse he was escorted off the plane. Deplorables indeed.