Deriving a moral philosophy from Jesus.

[Lion IRC]

You're free to go to someone else's paradise if you don't like the one owned and operated by God.

Really? What other paradise might that be?

You tell me.
I'm defending the logic that if you want to be saved by Jesus then He is the Way - the only Way. By no other name etc etc. But if you aren't fussed about being saved (by Jesus) and want to make your own way to some other form of eschatological salvation then, no, you don't need Jesus' help to get there.

 

[DBT]

You're free to go to someone else's paradise if you don't like the one owned and operated by God.

Really? What other paradise might that be?

You tell me.
I'm defending the logic that if you want to be saved by Jesus then He is the Way - the only Way. By no other name etc etc. But if you aren't fussed about being saved (by Jesus) and want to make your own way to some other form of eschatological salvation then, no, you don't need Jesus' help to get there.

The issue I was referring to is eternal punishment for mere lack of conviction and the morality of that judgment and that standard of ethics.

 

[ruby sparks]

Frodo Baggins is a better role model than Jesus, if a person is looking for some kind of moral compass. That's because Frodo wanted to make his world a better place, which he did. There are tons of role models better than the gospel protagonist.

The Jesus character was all about getting your reward in the next world and didn't do anything for anyone in this one. Does Jesus ever tell us anything about how beautiful this world is? Does Jesus do anything but pontificate and then fly away into the sky? Where does the Jesus character help anybody and not just be all preachy? He even fakes his own death.

The authors who invented the Jesus character were merely creating a persona that reflected their opinions about the current state of woo. In that sense I think the Jesus character is more like us than we give it credit for in that it's a pretty weak and aimless person drifting along with the times and not doing anything of importance to change the path of human suffering. It's a character that's all talk, obviously owing to the experiences of the authors that penned it.

Jesus's basic message is to be meek, be holy, go to heaven.

Personally, I think that's harsh on Jesus.

For one thing, Frodo Baggins is mid 20th Century. If we are to judge Jesus, I think it's better done by not expecting him to be the beneficiary of later developments.

One question that could be asked is whether, by the standards of his time, he was more progressive than regressive, or the other way around. That's tricky, imo, not least because he's not here to speak for himself and comes to us through a thick filter mostly formed by millennia of western orthodoxy.

I think it might be slightly easier (but even then debatable) to say that the institution of Christianity was more regressive than progressive, as it turned out, at least for many centuries (until the reformation?) but that's a different issue.

As regards Jesus, if we wanted to compare and contrast, we should perhaps look across at contemporaries or predecessors from Ancient Greece.

 

[Politesse]

If nothing else, I do not think it was common in the Hellenistic world to put "the last first, and the first last"; this is very contrary to what had been the normal way of thinking about power and social identity in the ancient world. On a similar note, accepting women as disciples was also very, very strange at that time. Women and slaves were property, not students.

Again, I am not in a position to knowledgeably assess, but those seem like good candidates also.

So, I'm wondering...how much of the former (the proto-marxist content if you like) was brand new (Jesus-new) and how much was Jesus merely the articulator of something that had bubbled up somewhere, possibly many times before, but possibly most relevantly in this/his case, among people or groups he had mingled with as an impressionable young man?

I am not trying to take anything, any credit, away from Jesus. Ideas evolve in a socio-cultural nutrient soup. If the soil is fertile, they take root. Otherwise they die. Maybe Jesus' (noble, progressive) ideas would have died alongside Mithraism were it not for eventual Roman sponsorship. I'm eschewing teleology here, obviously. I'm thinking more along the lines of random mutations and natural selection. Chance, to some extent. The natural, unguided, unfolding of the universe.

But anyhows, I guess I'm asking, in the first instance, that question that is sometimes asked of famous rock/pop stars. What were his influences?

Obviously, I am wondering about Essenes, for example.

And the women thing. Yeah. That seems remarkably egalitarian. I think the men who became the orthodoxy put the brakes on that 'dangerous idea,' and arguably rather cleverly, with the whole Mary thing. That's how it looks to me.

There are certainly precedents in Hebrew tradition. Jesus was very enamored of the book of Isaiah, which he referenced often in his recorded sermons. But he also took it a step further. Kindness to the poor is a different thing than disdain for the rich.

And yes, the church backpedaled horrifyingly on the empowerment of women, within a single generation... the hack job was so complete we're left with only tantalizing hints of the roles women initially held in the church.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I think the idea that salvation, used as a term of convenience here, is a matter for self realization rather than absolution from an authority, was a very new idea.

I am not in a position to knowledgeably assess that, but to my ears it sounds like an excellent potential candidate. Personal, self-realised salvation.

Though....as expressed by Jesus, was it really all that self-realised? Was there not, at that time I mean, still an iron-fisted authority involved, from on-high?

It is more personal and self-realised nowadays, I think. Thought to be, I mean. Seen as. In popular culture. It's almost the unspoken maixim of the modern, post-Freudian, me-generation. 'If you dig it, it's cool'. Very 60's, I know. Still relevant, I think, possibly more so than in the 1960's, albeit, as it turns out, exploited and subverted by capitalists.

Could we call Jesus' version proto-self-realisation, or its precursor? Or is that just fanciful? It could be. It's easy to trace lines of development backwards with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, especially when reading old texts with modern minds. The 'If it's the case now, and this old stuff seems to precede it, there's a causal link' fallacy, perhaps.

Unity and authority aren’t necessarily the same thing. That, I’d guess, would be a highly abstract idea for that time, since people’s experiences would’ve been shaped by authorities. I’ve heard it argued that the roots of Christianity lie in the fall of the temple state and the rise of collegia, groups formed around a common interest, behind Alexander the Greats conquests.

Nietszche said Christianity was Platonism for the people. Not a good thing. Not sure I agree, but I don’t know that I completely understand his position.

Anyway, according to the Platonic construction, God the father is transcendence, beyond words, beyond intelligibility. The intelligibility is the first remove, the Son. The form of the Good as opposed to the Good itself. The universal accessibility, or instantiations, of the Father and the Son, then is the Spirit.

So the Gospels are like the Archie comic book version of Plato. Still, the emphasis is on understanding, at least in Mark.

Another consideration is the Jungian view that God envied man and used man, in the case of Job, as a tool for His own self realization, Jesus being the culmination of that envy. Envy is maybe too trivial a word, but still conveys the point.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Frodo Baggins is a better role model than Jesus, if a person is looking for some kind of moral compass. That's because Frodo wanted to make his world a better place, which he did. There are tons of role models better than the gospel protagonist.

The Jesus character was all about getting your reward in the next world and didn't do anything for anyone in this one. Does Jesus ever tell us anything about how beautiful this world is? Does Jesus do anything but pontificate and then fly away into the sky? Where does the Jesus character help anybody and not just be all preachy? He even fakes his own death.

The authors who invented the Jesus character were merely creating a persona that reflected their opinions about the current state of woo. In that sense I think the Jesus character is more like us than we give it credit for in that it's a pretty weak and aimless person drifting along with the times and not doing anything of importance to change the path of human suffering. It's a character that's all talk, obviously owing to the experiences of the authors that penned it.

Jesus's basic message is to be meek, be holy, go to heaven.

Personally, I think that's harsh on Jesus.

For one thing, Frodo Baggins is mid 20th Century. If we are to judge Jesus, I think it's better done by not expecting him to be the beneficiary of later developments.

One question that could be asked is whether, by the standards of his time, he was more progressive than regressive, or the other way around. That's tricky, imo, not least because he's not here to speak for himself and comes to us through a thick filter mostly formed by millennia of western orthodoxy.

I think it might be slightly easier (but even then debatable) to say that the institution of Christianity was more regressive than progressive, as it turned out, at least for many centuries (until the reformation?) but that's a different issue.

As regards Jesus, if we wanted to compare and contrast, we should perhaps look across at contemporaries or predecessors from Ancient Greece.

My main point is that the character doesn't do anything, rather it's just a mouthpiece.

 

[DBT]

We only know what anonymous writers tell us.

 

[Copernicus]

The idea that morality derives from authority starts in childhood, and perhaps it remains the dominant idea for most people throughout their lives. So religious authorities then stand in loco parentis. You can't derive a moral philosophy from any authority at all. There is only one rule in authoritarian morality--to do what you are told. Follow the instructions. And be sure to consult your doctor priest/shaman/rabbi/cleric/etc. regularly to make sure that you are taking your medications properly.

Moral philosophies come about when people begin to evaluate moral doctrines for whether they make sense. Only then can one look at Christian moral codes and debate their merit. What is good or bad about the so-called teachings of Jesus? If "God is good", then there must be some external standard for judging goodness that does not derive from the religious authority. What is it? Call in the philosophical authorities.

 

[steve_bank]

Jesus in a nutshell.


The Beatitudes
2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
Christ Came to Fulfill the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Anger
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
Lust
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Divorce
31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths
33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.
Retaliation
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Giving to the Needy
6 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
The Lord's Prayer
5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this:
“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Fasting
16 “And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Lay Up Treasures in Heaven
19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
Do Not Be Anxious
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
Judging Others
7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
Ask, and It Will Be Given
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
The Golden Rule
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
A Tree and Its Fruit
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Build Your House on the Rock
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
The Authority of Jesus
28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.

 

[steve_bank]

I don't see moral philosophy coming from a Jesus but rather a Jesus coming from moral philosophy.

Interesting, I agree. From the narrative Jesus would have been a literate educated rabi steeped in Jewish culture and norms. I believe most or all of his ideas predated him in the OT.

 

[steve_bank]

To be honest the beatitudes sound like the progressive campaign promises. In the gospels Jesus generally hung around those at the bottom. To me his overall message was believe in god and I and suffer your problems, your reward is in an afterlife.

Life at the bottom was a brutal grind. When he said 'give us this day our daily bread' it was not about thanks for a nice dinner spread, it was about having enough to eat to live one more day. I think that is the context of what he was saying in general.

Definitely anti materialist. Do not seek material things and wealth(like Gentiles) seek god and spiritual things. Accumulate for the afterlife not the here and now.

With the list maybe this is where we can discus what it means to be a Christian, secular or theist.

Enemies in 43 given the geopolitics must mean Rome. He also said give to Caesar what is his and god what is his.

For the Jews looking for a king to push back Rome he would not be popular. To me he sounds like he came from or spent time in Rome.

 

[DBT]

St Paul used his time in Greece productively, copying from Greek Philosophy almost verbatim.

 

[ruby sparks]

Enemies in 43 given the geopolitics must mean Rome. He also said give to Caesar what is his and god what is his.

For the Jews looking for a king to push back Rome he would not be popular. To me he sounds like he came from or spent time in Rome.

Pauline Christianity, the version that won, might not be the original. Words may have been put in his mouth that he would have choked on, anything pro-Roman I mean.

 

[ruby sparks]

My main point is that the character doesn't do anything, rather it's just a mouthpiece.

Wouldn't that be true of many sages, philosophers, etc?

Would you have preferred more car chases and explosions?

 

[ruby sparks]

Just on that, I myself do not rule out that the man we know as Jesus (probably not his real name) was quite a lot more radical and activist than generally described in the NT. He might even have been what we would call a terrorist. In addition to being the sort of man who would come out with the Sermon on the Mount (for example) I mean. He could have been a bit of both.

It's not something I'd necessarily claim to be the case but I think it's plausible, I might even say very plausible.

In any case, because we're cherry-picking here (well, I am) the above arguably doesn't matter, just as it arguably doesn't matter, as regards the value or otherwise of this or that piece of moral philosophy attributed to him, if he didn't even exist.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

My main point is that the character doesn't do anything, rather it's just a mouthpiece.

Wouldn't that be true of many sages, philosophers, etc?

Would you have preferred more car chases and explosions?

I think I just prefer a bit more optimism in my humanity.

The Jesus character is this alleged amalgam of superhero wisdom and ability that in the end glorifies suffering and by doing so escapes death. Given the difficulty of life at the time for your average person this plot is so metaphorical that it's difficult for me to comprehend how anyone could read it as actually happening. Yes, as comic book theology goes it's right for a time when superstition was high and expectations were low. Imagine if everyone today was as goofy in their religious behavior as a Pat Robertson. How does a Jesus character make things better? It doesn't.

So yes, I'll take a couple helpings of Monty Python and a suffering servant superhero that actually gets something done if we're looking for a moral compass worth following.

 

[steve_bank]

No Christians seem to be interested what was avtualy attributed to Jesus.

I read Gandhi's biography.

2000 years from now if all you had was a wriiten description as a skiiny man in sandals wearing a loin cloth along with a collection of sayings you could come up with any number of images.

His back story was he studied law in England and passed the bar. While working in South Africa his experience with discrimination aginss brown skinned put him on his path to activism.

There were Europeans with him from the start in India some became close friends. In later yeas young Europeans who showed up to be around him could not understand how the great master would just sit around making idle conversation with others.

The man had become myth.

 

[steve_bank]

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Sounds to me you are supposed to keep kosher, so to speak. Nothing changed in Jewish tradition and law.

12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

If only this were the one basis of Christianity this would be a different country.

19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

So much for our greedy, materialistic, exploitive society of acquisition of endless material goods you do not need.


Your Message

 

[Treedbear]

I find nothing of moral value in Jesus teachings that hasn't been said before. His additions concern the hope in the promise of a reward in a life after death, or eternal punishment in hell. Basing it on the myth of original sin and the futility of seeking salvation anywhere but by following him.

 

[Politesse]

I find nothing of moral value in Jesus teachings that hasn't been said before. His additions concern the hope in the promise of a reward in a life after death, or eternal punishment in hell. Basing it on the myth of original sin and the futility of seeking salvation anywhere but by following him.

Jesus isn't greatly responsible for most of that. Vlaming Jesus for Augustine's theology is like holding Plato accountable for the writings of Porphyry.