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Did Agriculture Destroy Us?

Even though our growth was stunted, we were malnourished, our teeth were full of decay, etc? The healthy HGers couldn't not compete with these sickly AGers? They could not just eat their farm animals and continue to be dominant? Couldn't they use their grains to feed their animals and just eat the animals? Why were they eating their grains and becoming sick? Why could they not turn back? Were all the animals dead? Had they destroyed the habitat the grazers needed?

I know I'm being snarky, but what is Harari's explanation for why we could not turn back? Could you give me the gist of his argument?

What were those paleo-golden-age, super-healthy HGers doing eating grains? Didn't they know that grains were bad and would negatively affect their health and the health of their offspring for untold generations? Didn't that become obvious once their teeth started falling out and their children were stunted? Why did they commit this original sin and continue for thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years? The horror.

But it's good knowing we could all be super healthy if we just went back to eating antelopes and wild berries.

Your feelings about contemporary dieting have nothing to do with what the archaeological record demonstrates. Neither are the feelings of our forebears easily available to us, though many explanations have been advanced as to the virtues of agriculture, many in this very thread. All of this can still be true, and the health consequences of agriculture also true, at the same time. We have many, many times in human history traded a con for a pro. Indeed, there is no technology, however wonderful, that comes without any cost at all.

Is Harari's argument as balanced? Are we out of choices today? Were our ancestors forced to adopt an agrarian lifestyle or was it a choice they made like paleo nuts wish us to believe? If it was a choice why did they make it? If it wasn't a choice what is the argument again?

I have yet to see a balanced perspective on this thread. I'm also not keen on speculation when it comes to the abstract emotions of ancient populations, which are not easy to deduce from things like osteo data and pollen floats, our primary means of learning anything about these epochs.

Was it a choice? Everything humans do is a choice. Whether a choice was "right" is s subjective question and partially depends on your goals. Agriculture does constitute a choice that is difficult to reverse at a certain point, both because it requires a dense population tl be efficient and because its time expenditure negates the possibility of also participating in prime foraging episodes in the same year. But it has occasionally happened. There are at least three areas where intense agriculture gave way to foraging-dominant economies during a relatively short amount of time: the Mayan lowlands around the 9th c., the US southwest after 1250 ce, and the Amazon basin over several recent centuries at different times.

But we do not know why those episodes occurred, though we are speculating heavily in the direction of environmental pressure, which makes the most sense. These populations were not overtaken by HG populations. The Greenland Norse for example did not become HGers, they simply vanished while indigenous HG populations survived.
 
Even though our growth was stunted, we were malnourished, our teeth were full of decay, etc? The healthy HGers couldn't not compete with these sickly AGers? They could not just eat their farm animals and continue to be dominant? Couldn't they use their grains to feed their animals and just eat the animals? Why were they eating their grains and becoming sick? Why could they not turn back? Were all the animals dead? Had they destroyed the habitat the grazers needed?

I know I'm being snarky, but what is Harari's explanation for why we could not turn back? Could you give me the gist of his argument?

Your feelings about contemporary dieting have nothing to do with what the archaeological record demonstrates. Neither are the feelings of our forebears easily available to us, though many explanations have been advanced as to the virtues of agriculture, many in this very thread. All of this can still be true, and the health consequences of agriculture also true, at the same time. We have many, many times in human history traded a con for a pro. Indeed, there is no technology, however wonderful, that comes without any cost at all.

Is Harari's argument as balanced? Are we out of choices today? Were our ancestors forced to adopt an agrarian lifestyle or was it a choice they made like paleo nuts wish us to believe? If it was a choice why did they make it? If it wasn't a choice what is the argument again?

I have yet to see a balanced perspective on this thread. I'm also not keen on speculation when it comes to the abstract emotions of ancient populations, which are not easy to deduce from things like osteo data and pollen floats, our primary means of learning anything about these epochs.

Was it a choice? Everything humans do is a choice. Whether a choice was "right" is s subjective question and partially depends on your goals. Agriculture does constitute a choice that is difficult to reverse at a certain point, both because it requires a dense population tl be efficient and because its time expenditure negates the possibility of also participating in prime foraging episodes in the same year. But it has occasionally happened. There are at least three areas where intense agriculture gave way to foraging-dominant economies during a relatively short amount of time: the Mayan lowlands around the 9th c., the US southwest after 1250 ce, and the Amazon basin over several recent centuries at different times.

But we do not know why those episodes occurred, though we are speculating heavily in the direction of environmental pressure, which makes the most sense. These populations were not overtaken by HG populations. The Greenland Norse for example did not become HGers, they simply vanished while indigenous HG populations survived.

Civilizations do not "vanish", aside from on poorly conceived tv specials. They may move or change though, and often do.
 
Even though our growth was stunted, we were malnourished, our teeth were full of decay, etc? The healthy HGers couldn't not compete with these sickly AGers? They could not just eat their farm animals and continue to be dominant? Couldn't they use their grains to feed their animals and just eat the animals? Why were they eating their grains and becoming sick? Why could they not turn back? Were all the animals dead? Had they destroyed the habitat the grazers needed?

I know I'm being snarky, but what is Harari's explanation for why we could not turn back? Could you give me the gist of his argument?



Is Harari's argument as balanced? Are we out of choices today? Were our ancestors forced to adopt an agrarian lifestyle or was it a choice they made like paleo nuts wish us to believe? If it was a choice why did they make it? If it wasn't a choice what is the argument again?

I have yet to see a balanced perspective on this thread. I'm also not keen on speculation when it comes to the abstract emotions of ancient populations, which are not easy to deduce from things like osteo data and pollen floats, our primary means of learning anything about these epochs.

Was it a choice? Everything humans do is a choice. Whether a choice was "right" is s subjective question and partially depends on your goals. Agriculture does constitute a choice that is difficult to reverse at a certain point, both because it requires a dense population tl be efficient and because its time expenditure negates the possibility of also participating in prime foraging episodes in the same year. But it has occasionally happened. There are at least three areas where intense agriculture gave way to foraging-dominant economies during a relatively short amount of time: the Mayan lowlands around the 9th c., the US southwest after 1250 ce, and the Amazon basin over several recent centuries at different times.

But we do not know why those episodes occurred, though we are speculating heavily in the direction of environmental pressure, which makes the most sense. These populations were not overtaken by HG populations. The Greenland Norse for example did not become HGers, they simply vanished while indigenous HG populations survived.

Civilizations do not "vanish", aside from on poorly conceived tv specials. They may move or change though, and often do.
It depends on your meaning of 'vanish'. There are quite a few old civilizations that we only know they existed because there there have been unique relics and ruins found.
 
Civilizations do not "vanish", aside from on poorly conceived tv specials. They may move or change though, and often do.

You got me to thinking so I had to check for the latest on the Greenland Norse.

Why Did Greenland’s Vikings Vanish?

You are correct, their settlements were abandoned but all indications are that it was an orderly abandonment over hundreds of years, hence no major headlines back in Europe.
 
I have yet to see a balanced perspective on this thread. I'm also not keen on speculation when it comes to the abstract emotions of ancient populations, which are not easy to deduce from things like osteo data and pollen floats, our primary means of learning anything about these epochs.

Was it a choice? Everything humans do is a choice. Whether a choice was "right" is s subjective question and partially depends on your goals. Agriculture does constitute a choice that is difficult to reverse at a certain point, both because it requires a dense population tl be efficient and because its time expenditure negates the possibility of also participating in prime foraging episodes in the same year. But it has occasionally happened. There are at least three areas where intense agriculture gave way to foraging-dominant economies during a relatively short amount of time: the Mayan lowlands around the 9th c., the US southwest after 1250 ce, and the Amazon basin over several recent centuries at different times.

But we do not know why those episodes occurred, though we are speculating heavily in the direction of environmental pressure, which makes the most sense. These populations were not overtaken by HG populations. The Greenland Norse for example did not become HGers, they simply vanished while indigenous HG populations survived.

Civilizations do not "vanish", aside from on poorly conceived tv specials. They may move or change though, and often do.
It depends on your meaning of 'vanish'. There are quite a few old civilizations that we only know they existed because there there have been unique relics and ruins found.

Well, sure. Time eventually takes all things. But people do not just disappear. When the US Southwest was "abandoned" by the Ancestral Puebloan cultures, for instance, they did not simply bip out of existence, we have ever-increasing stores of detail about the dissolution of these communities. There was widespread migration, with whole clans moving south to the Rio Grande River Valley, concentration into historical communities like Taos and Hopi pueblos, and (very frequently!) people following family lines to join other neighboring ethnic groups. Which is relevant to this discussion, since many of those groups - the Yuman-speakers along the Colorado, the Apachean dwellers of the Northern Sonora - were nomadic foragers, not agricultural societies. Indeed, those groups were fully aware of agricultural technology and even used it opportunistically in wet years, but from the 15th century onward their dominant mode of life was based on hunting, gathering, scavenging, and trading or raiding of the farmers who remained in the area. In short, the Puebloans didn't vanish, they changed. Often, though not always, by retreating from the kind of intensive dry-land maize agriculture their ancestors had relied on in favor of a foraging way of life ultimately more practical to the desert environment in which they lived. What clan you belonged to had a huge say in which course your family took through the chaos.

The situation with the Maya, at least, is quite similar. There was, beyond any shadow of doubt, a major collapse of the political system of the day. But the Maya people themselves obviously did not disappear, given the self-evident fact of their continued existence in the present. They largely farm in the modern era, but there were long centuries in which many of the Maya groups did not, either by choice or due to soil depletion. We know it was sometimes by choice for some, despite (like the desert foragers mentioned above) their knowing perfectly well how to farm. The flaws of state life loom large in the stories and mythology of both Mayans and modern Puebloans; big-city-dwellers are always the enemies ("Anasazi", the popular name for the Ancestral Puebloans literally means "Ancient Villains" in the Dine language) and they are openly mocked for forsaking their family and spiritual ties, and trying to accumulate power in human institutions (and depending on who you ask, perhaps relying on witches to maintain power through terror :D ). This isn't all the fault of corn of course, but trying to disentangle the role of agriculture from the other realities of densely populated living would be difficult. The two tend to come together.
 
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