T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
Even though our growth was stunted, we were malnourished, our teeth were full of decay, etc? The healthy HGers couldn't not compete with these sickly AGers? They could not just eat their farm animals and continue to be dominant? Couldn't they use their grains to feed their animals and just eat the animals? Why were they eating their grains and becoming sick? Why could they not turn back? Were all the animals dead? Had they destroyed the habitat the grazers needed?
I know I'm being snarky, but what is Harari's explanation for why we could not turn back? Could you give me the gist of his argument?
What were those paleo-golden-age, super-healthy HGers doing eating grains? Didn't they know that grains were bad and would negatively affect their health and the health of their offspring for untold generations? Didn't that become obvious once their teeth started falling out and their children were stunted? Why did they commit this original sin and continue for thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years? The horror.
But it's good knowing we could all be super healthy if we just went back to eating antelopes and wild berries.
Your feelings about contemporary dieting have nothing to do with what the archaeological record demonstrates. Neither are the feelings of our forebears easily available to us, though many explanations have been advanced as to the virtues of agriculture, many in this very thread. All of this can still be true, and the health consequences of agriculture also true, at the same time. We have many, many times in human history traded a con for a pro. Indeed, there is no technology, however wonderful, that comes without any cost at all.
Is Harari's argument as balanced? Are we out of choices today? Were our ancestors forced to adopt an agrarian lifestyle or was it a choice they made like paleo nuts wish us to believe? If it was a choice why did they make it? If it wasn't a choice what is the argument again?
I have yet to see a balanced perspective on this thread. I'm also not keen on speculation when it comes to the abstract emotions of ancient populations, which are not easy to deduce from things like osteo data and pollen floats, our primary means of learning anything about these epochs.
Was it a choice? Everything humans do is a choice. Whether a choice was "right" is s subjective question and partially depends on your goals. Agriculture does constitute a choice that is difficult to reverse at a certain point, both because it requires a dense population tl be efficient and because its time expenditure negates the possibility of also participating in prime foraging episodes in the same year. But it has occasionally happened. There are at least three areas where intense agriculture gave way to foraging-dominant economies during a relatively short amount of time: the Mayan lowlands around the 9th c., the US southwest after 1250 ce, and the Amazon basin over several recent centuries at different times.
But we do not know why those episodes occurred, though we are speculating heavily in the direction of environmental pressure, which makes the most sense. These populations were not overtaken by HG populations. The Greenland Norse for example did not become HGers, they simply vanished while indigenous HG populations survived.