Difference between Heaven and Reincarnation

[4321lynx]

No. Evidence comes first, then ideas about the evidence, then tests of those ideas.

The tests, the criticisms, are not incuriosity. Believers keep saying that criticism of their ideas is close-mindedness and incuriosity. That's backwards.

Curiosity is very exactly the ability to not cling to and keep pushing ideas, however well the ideas would serve a want. In your case, the want is to find some justice in the world. Which apparently means nature should compensate for losses and adjust itself to people's levels.

Test your idea against reality, not Christianity. There should be evidence, in the natural world and not in the history of religions or the human imagination. The ancients... Hindus, Christians, all of them... could not separate their moral concerns from physics. Not distinguishing value from fact, they thought their "shoulds" had to be there in outer reality and so they shaped their story about reality to fit their shoulds. You're doing the same thing. You keep saying it's a metaphor for something or other, but you also keep saying people "get" to have another life -- and those two things cannot both be true.

If reincarnation is a kind of 'metaphor to live by', then can you say how it improves a life? Remember, if you answer, that it's "but an idea". And so, as a guide for "how one should lead one's life", it has to benefit the person BEFORE he dies and is reborn. It cannot benefit him WITH a rebirth. If it did that then it's nature doing things to him and, so, is not an idea that serves as a guide.

If it's an idea about nature that might someday be proved, then what's the evidence for it now? Not the proof itself, but some evidence justifying looking for some proof. Remember, the idea must come from evidence or it's pure fantasy.

You don't remember your childhood - in fact if you took the tests from your school days that you passed today you might fail. Does that mean they were useless?

"saying people "get" to have another life -- and those two things cannot both be true" that is how ideas work - lots of different things get tossed around - different people different ideas - that is how we grow as people

"If reincarnation is a kind of 'metaphor to live by', then can you say how it improves a life?" This is the Warrior faith - it asks us to not live in dreams, not to run away to magic fantasy lands in the sky - choose to live in real life - life that we see - Science also says the same thing. If more people believed in this there would be no terrorism - terrorists think they will be rewarded by magic being in the sky

Reincarnation also says that in this life i am Hindu, in the next an Atheist(well we are all born Atheists), then a Christian - the hate and division that the latter preaches will go away - lots of people were killed in the past because they were not Christian - pakistan is about to put a christian to death for blasphemy, Egyptian Christians have been killed because of their religion - so much hate based on religion will go away

I always say if the Buddha had been born in Christian or Muslim lands he would have been branded a heretic and tortured to death! His writings burnt, his followers killed, there would be no Buddhism today! No Sikhism, Jainism either! Half of the world's top religions came from Hindu India - that's not an accident. From the Christian and Muslim lands only one religion each - that's not an accident either. They simply killed anyone who thought of different ideas - ideas that challenge the status quo - see any similarities here?

So you're saying Hinduism is superior to Xtianity and Islam, gentler, more tolerant? Quite possibly you are right.
But that does not prove that its idea of Reincarnation is correct. It's just another crazy religious idea, a belief with not a shred of evidence for its reality; more wishful thinking.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Umm ... no.

What you're describing there is your version of a fantasy world, the same way that Heaven is other people's version of a fantasy world. The premise behind the two, however, is exactly the same and that premise is based on the childish notion that this is not it.
It's fine if you want to live in a fantasy world. To diss other people's fantasy worlds while promoting yours is less fine, though.

Right i have been told that i am an Idolator and i am destined for hell - in fact my mother is being tortured in hell right now - sadly have never seen christianity or islam being criticized for spreading hate for centuries now

What do you mean you've never seen them being criticized for this? We constantly criticize them for this. That's what they do.

Again these are ideas - what happens after death - they have theirs, we have ours. They have a right to spread theirs, as we do, the big difference is we don't condemn them to gas chambers in hell

That's not a difference which bears relevance to the illegitimacy of the ideas themselves.

There have been books - researchers spending a lot of time putting together evidence - as kids we seem to retain the memories of our past lives, then slowly we forget - so there have been lots of cases where a kid has remembered his past life - names, dates, places - unfortunately there is no way to prove that that kid did not just simply hear about it or see it on TV. But as time goes by and more evidence comes to light maybe we have a breakthrough

And there have been people who've had near death experiences where they went to heaven and other people who have talked to angels and other people who have been possessed by demons, etc. Researchers have spent a lot of time putting together the evidence about this. You seem to dismiss this evidence and yet accept the evidence which points to your point of view. Why dismiss the one and accept the other?

Heaven and Hell on the other hand shows that God can provide only Vengeance, not justice. It is like you have been robbed and you took the thief to court and the judge says he can either have 1) the thief get a 100 lashes (Hell) or 2) let him go free (Forgive). Neither is what you are looking for, neither is Justice. You want your money back, hurting the thief does nothing for you, of course letting him go scot-free is a slap in the face

Ya, that because heaven and hell are dumb concepts. The fact that they are dumb concepts doesn't mean that alternative concepts are therefore less dumb. Those ones need to stand on their own and problems with alternative concepts aren't marks in their favour.

 

[sharon45]

There are other questions like - i think of moving my hand and it does it - how is this being accomplished - a thought is moving my hand, my fingers as i type - what is going on? Yet we accept such things because we see them happening, even though science can't explain these things

But science has explained much of this, and it will continue to add to that in the future.

You have been Reincarnated several times in this very life - first I was a baby, then a child, then a teenager, then a young man - now, I am getting into the Autumn of my life - all these people were me & yet not me. I know this because it has happened

This is just growth and aging, not really reincarnation.

The first englishman who said the distant stars were the same as our sun, had no proof - it was just an idea at first - he later found proof. That's who we move forward - ideas come first, proof comes later

Ah, except the version of reincarnation that you are supposing here, makes no logical sense.

 

[sharon45]

And yet it keeps sounding real fancy anyway.

Not sure i understand - you were at bat and struck out or hit a home run, now it's your turn again. How is that fancy?

Because that example is not really one demonstrating reincarnation. Disregarding the magic involved, if anything, a completely different person would be at bat, and also far from who I actually am.

We don't understand why we are different - what makes us self-aware? Why is a computer - a big blue not self-aware - it too has a brain like ours. Something is missing and what ancient Hindus said, if it has happened once, why not again?

Sure, but we are no longer connected to our past selves in turn with memory and such. I might as well be still dead if I and others who knew me, do not honestly know the new me now.

 

[sharon45]

Lastly if Reincarnation is the same, wouldn't you have lots more people choosing it?

Oh, this is because Reincarnation does not have anywhere near the PR department that Christianity has.

 

[Learner]

I remember watching some time ago that a few people recalled certain memories about a particular person. There were three individuals who were sure they were the reincarnation of the same woman. Interestingly they had quite similar details of the person centuries ago and strangely ; all three were alive and present.

The only logical explanation you could see was; they may have all inherited some memory locked away in those genes somewhere meaning they would likely be the descendants of that person and were not the person herself.

 

[Learner]

Lastly if Reincarnation is the same, wouldn't you have lots more people choosing it?

Oh, this is because Reincarnation does not have anywhere near the PR department that Christianity has.

And quite a bit of bad press has help it along.

 

[sharon45]

sadly have never seen christianity or islam being criticized for spreading hate for centuries now

Of course not nearly enough, but both religions have been bitterly criticized for a long time.

Again these are ideas - what happens after death - they have theirs, we have ours. They have a right to spread theirs, as we do, the big difference is we don't condemn them to gas chambers in hell

Right, although one could come back as a dung beetle...

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Also, does Hell have gas chambers? Seeing as the entire place is on fire, it would seem like rather a redundant addition. Kind of the same as putting a water tap in the middle of a swimming pool. You're already in water, so what does a tap add?

 

[sharon45]

Also, does Hell have gas chambers? Seeing as the entire place is on fire, it would seem like rather a redundant addition. Kind of the same as putting a water tap in the middle of a swimming pool. You're already in water, so what does a tap add?

Yeah, Devil ought ta drop sum serious coin on feng shuiing da house.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Of course not nearly enough, but both religions have been bitterly criticized for a long time.

Again these are ideas - what happens after death - they have theirs, we have ours. They have a right to spread theirs, as we do, the big difference is we don't condemn them to gas chambers in hell

Right, although one could come back as a dung beetle...

lol yes - what is misunderstood is Tat Tvam Asi - first the concept of reincarnation applies to all - not just Hindus. These were general ideas that apply to all of us. So what the ancient Hindus said is Tat Tvam Asi - You Are That - ie you become what you are or you get the life that defines who you are

So, a guy dreaming of 72 virgins in Heaven is all about sex - so he comes back as a bonobo monkey - he gets to enjoy all the sex he wants - his wish will be fulfilled - he gets to be who he is

The lower forms of life are made for people who don't want pain or suffering - those who think they are bound for Heaven get to come back as lower life forms - see my cartoon - the one i posted before - under - "my answer to steve jobs coming back as a chinese worker hahaha Cartoon"

As for religions being criticized - where? Can you give me some links from major newspapers or magazines? Quotes from famous people?

 

[Sarpedon]

Oh, those are YOUR cartoons? YOU drew them?

 

[Ramaraksha]

What do you mean you've never seen them being criticized for this? We constantly criticize them for this. That's what they do.

Can you give me some evidence? Like some links to articles in major newspapers or magazines? or quotes by famous people?

That's not a difference which bears relevance to the illegitimacy of the ideas themselves.

Honestly, do you not live in a democracy?

And there have been people who've had near death experiences where they went to heaven and other people who have talked to angels and other people who have been possessed by demons, etc. Researchers have spent a lot of time putting together the evidence about this. You seem to dismiss this evidence and yet accept the evidence which points to your point of view. Why dismiss the one and accept the other?

Again reincarnation means hard evidence - places, dates, peoples names etc - what you describe is just imaginations with zero evidence. This post shows your bias, i think. Tell me, are you Christian?

Ya, that because heaven and hell are dumb concepts. The fact that they are dumb concepts doesn't mean that alternative concepts are therefore less dumb. Those ones need to stand on their own and problems with alternative concepts aren't marks in their favour.

Yes they are dumb - just primitive ideas of justice - back in the day they didn't have jails or any type of law and order. Violence was settled with violence - you kill mine, i kill yours. Today if someone is killed the police and detectives have a ton of scientific instruments that they can use to catch the culprit and even in our modern world, how many killers get caught? How many get away? Imagine back then - it was so easy to kill, rob and get away. No wonder people settled things with violence
And that is the idea of Hell - that one gets tortured for what one did in life - we can't prove that x is a killer, a rapist - but God knows everything and he will dispense "justice" - but justice as they understood it is violence, vengeance. Blood lust satisfied

Please see the difference - Justice is non-violent, no hate, is slow and it is all about the victim
Vengeance is violent, full of hate, very quick and is about the criminal

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Oh, those are YOUR cartoons? YOU drew them?

Nah - i am just the idea man - the cartoons were drawn by someone else - you can get anything done for you these days

 

[sharon45]

As for religions being criticized - where? Can you give me some links from major newspapers or magazines? Quotes from famous people?

This is a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_religion

 

[Ramaraksha]

So you're saying Hinduism is superior to Xtianity and Islam, gentler, more tolerant? Quite possibly you are right.
But that does not prove that its idea of Reincarnation is correct. It's just another crazy religious idea, a belief with not a shred of evidence for its reality; more wishful thinking.

OMG - far, far, far superior. Christianity and Islam are just primitive backward religions - what is there? nothing! Pray to the "right" God and be rewarded! That's it! Like polish the right shoes and be rewarded. Kiss the shoes of the boss and get promoted!
It made sense back in the day - it was important to live under the right king - to behave properly - sort of like how people in north korea must live - make sure you smile when the bosses arrive esp the big boss
Heaven cannot be earned, it can only be begged for!
In the 21st century! I can't believe such backward religions rule the day

 

[Ramaraksha]

But science has explained much of this, and it will continue to add to that in the future.

You have been Reincarnated several times in this very life - first I was a baby, then a child, then a teenager, then a young man - now, I am getting into the Autumn of my life - all these people were me & yet not me. I know this because it has happened

This is just growth and aging, not really reincarnation.

The first englishman who said the distant stars were the same as our sun, had no proof - it was just an idea at first - he later found proof. That's who we move forward - ideas come first, proof comes later

Ah, except the version of reincarnation that you are supposing here, makes no logical sense.

As they say all new ideas are always at first mocked and derided

I base the above on your response to you being reincarnated in the same life - you say that is just aging. Yes it is but you didn't get my point - you are a new person - that kid, that child, that teenager is NOT you, yet it is you

That is the idea for Reincarnation - what the ancients were saying is that maybe it continues - we can't see it but maybe we continue on in a new life

 

[Ramaraksha]

Sure, but we are no longer connected to our past selves in turn with memory and such. I might as well be still dead if I and others who knew me, do not honestly know the new me now.

That is not important - how many childhood memories do you have? how many friends have you lost touch with? How many passwords have you forgotten? How many things that once you knew how to do have you forgotten?
You are viewing the concept in isolation - Reincarnation is just part of the faith - what it is trying to teach us
Why must you go to school? Why must you learn algebra?
Until you put everything together looking at one part won't make sense

 

[sharon45]

Heaven cannot be earned, it can only be begged for!

Well, many hold false modesty that they do not actually deserve Heaven, but if they end up there, they must have somehow truly earned it.

 

[bilby]

Discussing the difference between heaven and reincarnation is much like discussing the difference between Hogwarts and the TARDIS - both are entirely fictional settings in which any story can be told, and both have legions of passionate fans who will get very upset if those stories don't fit their ideas of what is or is not canonical.

But ultimately it's a discussion of fiction, and as such is of no importance; it is the lightest of light entertainment.

 

[sharon45]

I base the above on your response to you being reincarnated in the same life - you say that is just aging. Yes it is but you didn't get my point - you are a new person - that kid, that child, that teenager is NOT you, yet it is you

But I said growth along with age. Of course we change in order to keep maturing, yet we remember and learn from our past, without requiring to be able to have an exact track of every detail in mind.

That is the idea for Reincarnation - what the ancients were saying is that maybe it continues - we can't see it but maybe we continue on in a new life

Except memory of ourselves is extremely important for identity, and a few claiming some mere flashes of supposed past-lived knowledge is hardly good enough, especially for the massive amount who have not experienced this and never will.