Difference between Heaven and Reincarnation

[Ramaraksha]

Heaven cannot be earned, it can only be begged for!

Well, many hold false modesty that they do not actually deserve Heaven, but if they end up there, they must have somehow truly earned it.

Endless days of doing nothing, sitting around - everything is free - free food & drinks. We see rich sports and movie stars surrounded by "friends and family" leeching off them. It's not a nice thing - not a nice fantasy - a bit shameless don't you think?

 

[Ramaraksha]

But I said growth along with age. Of course we change in order to keep maturing, yet we remember and learn from our past, without requiring to be able to have an exact track of every detail in mind.

You must read more books - you do a lot of things without being aware of why you are doing it - something that happened to you as a kid that you have no recollection of. Same thing with reincarnation - it is more like being in class - some classes are good for you, some are boring, some bad

But you get the idea - there is a steady progression - from school to college to.....? I bet Nietzsche read Hindu texts - he wrote about it but never gave us credit

 

[sharon45]

Sure, but we are no longer connected to our past selves in turn with memory and such. I might as well be still dead if I and others who knew me, do not honestly know the new me now.

That is not important - how many childhood memories do you have? how many friends have you lost touch with? How many passwords have you forgotten? How many things that once you knew how to do have you forgotten?

But it is necessary, and we take these memories with us across our lives, even if we do not honestly mentally remember everything, our recent thoughts and actions are still largely reflected by and connected to them.

You are viewing the concept in isolation - Reincarnation is just part of the faith - what it is trying to teach us

Obviously I see your point here, yet religions like Christianity and Islam are there to also teach us many new things, and believers could easily conclude that you are viewing, and in turn, primitively criticizing their religions in isolation too.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Discussing the difference between heaven and reincarnation is much like discussing the difference between Hogwarts and the TARDIS - both are entirely fictional settings in which any story can be told, and both have legions of passionate fans who will get very upset if those stories don't fit their ideas of what is or is not canonical.
But ultimately it's a discussion of fiction, and as such is of no importance; it is the lightest of light entertainment.

You read kids fictional stories to your kids, don't you? Have read them as a kid? Did the story of the Boy who cried wolf not teach you anything?

 

[sharon45]

Well, many hold false modesty that they do not actually deserve Heaven, but if they end up there, they must have somehow truly earned it.

Endless days of doing nothing, sitting around - everything is free - free food & drinks. We see rich sports and movie stars surrounded by "friends and family" leeching off them. It's not a nice thing - not a nice fantasy - a bit shameless don't you think?

Right, but that kind of behavior is just a small percentage of religious Christians and Muslims, while the vast amount believe in hard work and still expect to make it to Heaven.

 

[sharon45]

But I said growth along with age. Of course we change in order to keep maturing, yet we remember and learn from our past, without requiring to be able to have an exact track of every detail in mind.

You must read more books - you do a lot of things without being aware of why you are doing it - something that happened to you as a kid that you have no recollection of.

Which is what I am saying, but it is only part of what makes us who we are.

I bet Nietzsche read Hindu texts - he wrote about it but never gave us credit

We all learn from others. Even those old Hindus could have gotten some of their ideas by watching and listening to others, and they probably did not give the people credit either.

 

[Ramaraksha]

You must read more books - you do a lot of things without being aware of why you are doing it - something that happened to you as a kid that you have no recollection of.

Which is what I am saying, but it is only part of what makes us who we are.

I bet Nietzsche read Hindu texts - he wrote about it but never gave us credit

We all learn from others. Even those old Hindus could have gotten some of their ideas by watching and listening to others, and they probably did not give the people credit either.

If they didn't they are wrong as well

But i do see some discrimination - ever wonder why all the philosophers are white males? An oriental guy, but still white, gets in here and there
Couple of times i ran into descriptions like - the top religions of the world - Christianity, Islam and Buddhism. That's it. These are intelligent, educated people - it does seem odd that they do not know about Hinduism, but our faith is darkie. We have darkie Gods, maybe we don't qualify

 

[Ramaraksha]

Right, but that kind of behavior is just a small percentage of religious Christians and Muslims, while the vast amount believe in hard work and still expect to make it to Heaven.

lol i was talking about Heaven - what does one DO in heaven? How does one make a living? Does it pay enough? is there health-care? vacation time? Does one get fired from a job?
You see no one ever asks such questions - which scares the hell out of me. Shows how religion can brainwash the best of us

 

[bilby]

Discussing the difference between heaven and reincarnation is much like discussing the difference between Hogwarts and the TARDIS - both are entirely fictional settings in which any story can be told, and both have legions of passionate fans who will get very upset if those stories don't fit their ideas of what is or is not canonical.
But ultimately it's a discussion of fiction, and as such is of no importance; it is the lightest of light entertainment.

You read kids fictional stories to your kids, don't you? Have read them as a kid? Did the story of the Boy who cried wolf not teach you anything?

Fables can be instructive; But if people start to imagine that they reflect reality, then they are doing more harm than good.

Do you think we should set out to hunt down the wolf that ate the boy at the end of the tale? I would suggest that trying to do so would be a futile waste of our limited time and effort.

It is important to understand which parts of a fiction are valuable lessons, and which are just colour. In terms of living one's life in a moral and positive way that benefits both oneself and ones society, neither heaven nor reincarnation provide any lessons that could not be better learned without recourse to fable.

 

[sharon45]

Which is what I am saying, but it is only part of what makes us who we are.

I bet Nietzsche read Hindu texts - he wrote about it but never gave us credit

We all learn from others. Even those old Hindus could have gotten some of their ideas by watching and listening to others, and they probably did not give the people credit either.

If they didn't they are wrong as well

But i do see some discrimination - ever wonder why all the philosophers are white males? An oriental guy, but still white, gets in here and there
Couple of times i ran into descriptions like - the top religions of the world - Christianity, Islam and Buddhism. That's it. These are intelligent, educated people - it does seem odd that they do not know about Hinduism, but our faith is darkie. We have darkie Gods, maybe we don't qualify

I will grant you that, since white people so greatly finished conquering people last, this is going to survive much longer and louder. Otherwise, you are clearly not giving Hinduism enough honor, because it is certainly seated prominently in the great religions of the world list.

And also, Asians are not considered "white" as you may think.

 

[bilby]

Right, but that kind of behavior is just a small percentage of religious Christians and Muslims, while the vast amount believe in hard work and still expect to make it to Heaven.

lol i was talking about Heaven - what does one DO in heaven? How does one make a living? Does it pay enough? is there health-care? vacation time? Does one get fired from a job?
You see no one ever asks such questions - which scares the hell out of me. Shows how religion can brainwash the best of us

Who cares?

It's fiction. Each individual reader can fill in such details with whatever they like; or just ignore them. Nobody ever asks whether Harry Potter learns calculus or trigonometry at Hogwarts; and it's entirely up to the individual reader to decide (if they care) that he does (or does not), because it's not central to the fictional work. That's not scary, and it's not brainwashing. It's how stories work.

Fable and fiction cover only the subject matter that the author chooses to cover; No work of fiction can ever describe all of reality. If you care about how reality works, you need science, not storytelling.

That you seem to think everything can (and should) be learned via religious fables is truly bizarre.

 

[sharon45]

Right, but that kind of behavior is just a small percentage of religious Christians and Muslims, while the vast amount believe in hard work and still expect to make it to Heaven.

lol i was talking about Heaven - what does one DO in heaven? How does one make a living? Does it pay enough? is there health-care? vacation time? Does one get fired from a job?

The NT does not describe Heaven that much, but many imagine spending eternity singing praises to and learning new and wondrous things about their god.

You see no one ever asks such questions

Sure, plenty have asked various questions over these numerous centeries, just that there are relatively few real answers.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Who cares?
It's fiction. Each individual reader can fill in such details with whatever they like; or just ignore them. Nobody ever asks whether Harry Potter learns calculus or trigonometry at Hogwarts; and it's entirely up to the individual reader to decide (if they care) that he does (or does not), because it's not central to the fictional work. That's not scary, and it's not brainwashing. It's how stories work.
Fable and fiction cover only the subject matter that the author chooses to cover; No work of fiction can ever describe all of reality. If you care about how reality works, you need science, not storytelling.
That you seem to think everything can (and should) be learned via religious fables is truly bizarre.

Don't be so sure. The way you catch people lying and this is according to experts is to keep them talking - one of the tells of liars is the lack of details - they know the more they talk details will trip them up
And that's what the question - what does one DO in heaven does - it is asking for details

What does the amazing being who is powerful enough to make this huge universe want from puny humans? What kind of work would this being might have? Is he running factories up there making widgets and selling them to the universe next door?
Of course this is silly
And so we end up with nothing - no work - billions of people spending a useless existence for eternity

That is how one attacks these feel-good stories

 

[Ramaraksha]

lol i was talking about Heaven - what does one DO in heaven? How does one make a living? Does it pay enough? is there health-care? vacation time? Does one get fired from a job?

The NT does not describe Heaven that much, but many imagine spending eternity singing praises to and learning new and wondrous things about their god.

You see no one ever asks such questions

Sure, plenty have asked various questions over these numerous centeries, just that there are relatively few real answers.

My take is that Christianity and Islam are Master/Slave religions born when Kings ruled and they made God in his image. in fact using the life they had at that time. No democracy, Kings ruled and naturally demanded obedience and loyalty(belief) from their subjects/slaves. If you can't declare your loyalty to the king, out you went. That is the life they had and that is what they used to create the heavens - a King-like God sits in the heavens, rewarding his loyal followers(believers get heaven) and punishing the rest(unbelievers get hell)

Simple primitive ideas

And you used the same words - Singing praises? That is what courtiers used to do - praise the King. Learning new and wondrous things about God? Sounds like a lot of fun.
What i was asking of course is that as they praise and learn all this stuff - who is taking care of their food and drink? Where do they live? singing praises and learning doesn't sound like a job, so is everything for free in heaven? Billions of freeloaders mooching off God? Totally shameless?

I don't agree that people have asked questions - if they were asked and the religious people got ants in their pants, then it would provoke laughter and mockery just as i did

Lastly, when was the last time you read of such questions? Where? In a magazine? Newspaper? Article?

 

[Ramaraksha]

I will grant you that, since white people so greatly finished conquering people last, this is going to survive much longer and louder. Otherwise, you are clearly not giving Hinduism enough honor, because it is certainly seated prominently in the great religions of the world list.

And also, Asians are not considered "white" as you may think.

That is silly what does conquest have to with philosophy? You are justifying discrimination and racism based on some history? When are we going to move beyond seeing people for their color? Good ideas are good ideas, who cares where they come from? That is what i expect from present writers of these books - to move beyond their comfort zones, but that is not happening

Chinese are white - not Caucasian - i think that is what you meant to say

 

[Ramaraksha]

That is not important - how many childhood memories do you have? how many friends have you lost touch with? How many passwords have you forgotten? How many things that once you knew how to do have you forgotten?

But it is necessary, and we take these memories with us across our lives, even if we do not honestly mentally remember everything, our recent thoughts and actions are still largely reflected by and connected to them.

You are viewing the concept in isolation - Reincarnation is just part of the faith - what it is trying to teach us

Obviously I see your point here, yet religions like Christianity and Islam are there to also teach us many new things, and believers could easily conclude that you are viewing, and in turn, primitively criticizing their religions in isolation too.

And what Reincarnation is saying is that something similar is also happening in this life also - you are not just aware of it. Someone is born a musical genius - and some people say it is because he perfected that craft is his previous lives, yes lives - it will take time to get that PHD

As for christianity and islam teaching many things - well, i would love to hear them - not just assume they have something that they are not telling

Please read the Koran - have not yet gotten to the Bible but the Koran is horrible - full of hate - time and time again muslims threatening everyone else - Idolators, Atheists, people of other religions - all condemned as evil people & telling them God will hurt them horribly

Not saying there is nothing good in these religions - but if they continue to stress that religion alone will get you heaven, then it is my right to call them Master/Slave religions - Master rewarding his slaves for their obedience and loyalty

It's not whether i am right or wrong - it is the discussion of ideas that will move us forward

 

[Ramaraksha]

Fables can be instructive; But if people start to imagine that they reflect reality, then they are doing more harm than good.
Do you think we should set out to hunt down the wolf that ate the boy at the end of the tale? I would suggest that trying to do so would be a futile waste of our limited time and effort.
It is important to understand which parts of a fiction are valuable lessons, and which are just colour. In terms of living one's life in a moral and positive way that benefits both oneself and ones society, neither heaven nor reincarnation provide any lessons that could not be better learned without recourse to fable.

All that post and yet insisting the same answer. Sometimes i think Atheists are not full Atheists - more like Atheo-Christians - that's a new word right there. Still a lot of christianity left in them

Heaven is the idea that one can run away from life - that a nice sugar Daddy is waiting to keep us in comfort - it is living in a fantasy - no different than someone lost in a drug-addicted world or an online world - have you seen friends shaking these people and saying, "wake up! Get a life!"?
The latter is Reincarnation - nothing sexy - no magic land, no easy life - just life, Real Life

One can't blame the ancients - they lived terrible lives - life was really, really bad & so religions were happy to take advantage and promise them the moon. Nothing wrong about that but then they started killing people - if you didn't join the religion, you were killed! At this point people need to speak up

I don't know if you are an Atheist but in some parts of the world, you could be killed! Gays being hunted and killed! All this so that magic being in the sky will be pleased and give them the easy good life! Just wow!

We have terrorism today because of the concept of heaven - people tired of life, thinking they can get to the easy life in heaven by pleasing God - by killing "his enemies"

Reincarnation promises real life - pain and suffering - probably the only faith to promise that - it is a metaphor that if we ever want a life of our own, we must move out of the nest - get a life - but that involves pain and suffering

 

[bilby]

Who cares?
It's fiction. Each individual reader can fill in such details with whatever they like; or just ignore them. Nobody ever asks whether Harry Potter learns calculus or trigonometry at Hogwarts; and it's entirely up to the individual reader to decide (if they care) that he does (or does not), because it's not central to the fictional work. That's not scary, and it's not brainwashing. It's how stories work.
Fable and fiction cover only the subject matter that the author chooses to cover; No work of fiction can ever describe all of reality. If you care about how reality works, you need science, not storytelling.
That you seem to think everything can (and should) be learned via religious fables is truly bizarre.

Don't be so sure.

Why not? It's very obvious that heaven and reincarnation are fictional - they are incompatible with observed reality.

The way you catch people lying and this is according to experts is to keep them talking - one of the tells of liars is the lack of details - they know the more they talk details will trip them up

Fiction isn't lying; it's storytelling. There is no limit to the detail that can be created in fiction; It has only to be consistent with itself.

And that's what the question - what does one DO in heaven does - it is asking for details

Which is as futile as asking for the details of the Hogwarts curriculum and timetable.

What does the amazing being who is powerful enough to make this huge universe want from puny humans? What kind of work would this being might have? Is he running factories up there making widgets and selling them to the universe next door?
Of course this is silly
And so we end up with nothing - no work - billions of people spending a useless existence for eternity

That is how one attacks these feel-good stories

Why not just point out that they are fiction? They don't need to be attacked; just recognized as stories that have little or no bearing on our real world.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Don't be so sure.

Why not? It's very obvious that heaven and reincarnation are fictional - they are incompatible with observed reality.

The way you catch people lying and this is according to experts is to keep them talking - one of the tells of liars is the lack of details - they know the more they talk details will trip them up

Fiction isn't lying; it's storytelling. There is no limit to the detail that can be created in fiction; It has only to be consistent with itself.

And that's what the question - what does one DO in heaven does - it is asking for details

Which is as futile as asking for the details of the Hogwarts curriculum and timetable.

What does the amazing being who is powerful enough to make this huge universe want from puny humans? What kind of work would this being might have? Is he running factories up there making widgets and selling them to the universe next door?
Of course this is silly
And so we end up with nothing - no work - billions of people spending a useless existence for eternity
That is how one attacks these feel-good stories

Why not just point out that they are fiction? They don't need to be attacked; just recognized as stories that have little or no bearing on our real world.

There is more than one way to skin a cat? Not that i want to skin a cat, but you get the meaning. There is a method to my madness. You think it should not be attacked, I think they do. The more we discuss ideas, the better

You understand i don't attack or discuss their stories - don't have a bad word to say about Jesus or Mary - or any of their stories. Only one i have attacked is Abraham ready to kill his son - I think Christianity and Islam are Master/Slave religions - God made in the image of the master/King - Master must be obeyed unconditionally & so Abraham was ready and willing to kill son

As for fiction not being lies - these people talk about Truth and everything about their religion being True, even though we have this sun circling the earth, the earth being flat, Evolution is wrong etc - if they insist that all their stories are true, how does one show that they are lies? Or just fiction?

 

[sharon45]

And you used the same words - Singing praises? That is what courtiers used to do - praise the King. Learning new and wondrous things about God? Sounds like a lot of fun.

Yeah, especially when the Christian god is one sick puppy.

What i was asking of course is that as they praise and learn all this stuff - who is taking care of their food and drink? Where do they live? singing praises and learning doesn't sound like a job, so is everything for free in heaven? Billions of freeloaders mooching off God? Totally shameless?

They are like babies, and their god is the parent. That is not considered spoiled.

I don't agree that people have asked questions - if they were asked and the religious people got ants in their pants, then it would provoke laughter and mockery just as i did

Read through the religion's long history and even in the Bible itself; people are definitely questioning. It can be extremely serious. Many have died or were tortured because they dared to ask why.