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Do minds exist?

With what can a person conclude there is no mind?
You could try to use your brain.

If you're sure you have one and if you actually know how to use it maybe it's one way to do it. Me I actually don't know I have a brain but apparently I don't need to. All I need is know my own mind. And I just happen to do. Something like Descartes I guess. I'm also sceptical about brains proving minds, even collectively organised brains, like, say, CERN or whatever. There seems to be some sort of catch. Fascinating.
EB

Wow. Apparently a lesson is in order. Rocks arise from environmental stress. They continue to change over time. Finally they become something else, say, magma as the earth, also under environmental stress (a different set of stressors to be sure), evolves. Do we not call the effects of the different classes environmental stressors rock and magma based on what class of stressors act as genators?

Yet for humans we call how the human brain acts mind even when its products are generated by different classes of stressors. On the other hand when we classify the nature of how the brain works in response to various classes of stressors. We call one class of brain behaviour thought, another instinct, and yet another as reflex. We now know there are others science moves on.

Your example, that by Descartes, didn't work this way. He noticed human brains were rotated ninety degrees from dogs and concluded humans had soul, mind, instinct, and reflex. He attributed to dogs only instinct and reflex. I guess he thought a rotated brain was the result of another class of stressors.

I wonder what would be the result if what you attributed to your awarenesses wasn't so self centered. Certainly what you aggregate differently can be analyzed differently, perhaps even more more universally, say according to drivers to what you aggregate.
 
Wow. Apparently a lesson is in order. Rocks arise from environmental stress. They continue to change over time. Finally they become something else, say, magma as the earth, also under environmental stress (a different set of stressors to be sure), evolves. Do we not call the effects of the different classes environmental stressors rock and magma based on what class of stressors act as genators?

You can loosely and non-scientifically use the word "evolve" if you wish, but geology changes, It doesn't evolve. Change and evolution are not the same thing. Evolution specifically describes how life changes.

And with life there are stressors and there are attractors and there are repellors, and there is learning and emotion and sensation and voluntary movement and vision and hearing and many other things. None of which, except the stressors, it is rational to conclude is also in a rock.

Yet for humans we call how the human brain acts mind even when its products are generated by different classes of stressors.

Not for humans, for life. Life is a specific direction and has specific features that do not spill over into all things.

Mind is specific to some living things, not specific to humans. And of course when we talk about the mind, the subjective experience of a living thing, all we can talk about is the mind we have. That is the only possible mind knowable to us.

And it is all we know.
 
Yet for humans we call how the human brain acts mind even when its products are generated by different classes of stressors.
Most humans don't normally have access to the data relative to "how the human brain acts", as you put it so awkwardly. I guess you must know this but you are so self-centred that you forget that most human beings are not scientists and in fact most scientists are not even neurobiologists or cognitive scientists so only a very small fraction of humanity on this earth would use the word “mind” to refer to how the human brain works.

Me I would suggest you call it “the objective mind” to avoid the confusion and equivocation but, hey, I’m not the guy who hands out funds or rewards so you can ignore me!

Still, contrary to what you said suggests, most people on this planet call “mind” whatever they subjectively experience, notwithstanding the quirky opinion you and other reductionologists have. Sure, we usually believe that other people have a mind but only the religiously inclined among us, essentially, would think they somehow perceive it. Rather, people per-ceive the behaviour and body of other people and try to guess from that what might be in their minds, often getting it wrong as you would know as an aged example of humanity. So effectively you are just equivocating, confusing, confabulating, making it up as you boldly go in search of something to say.

Me I’m more modest. I accept I don’t know what’s the relation between brain and mind but I don’t take what scientists say about the mind as being about the kind of mind I experience subjectively so I wouldn’t say it’s about the mind. Rather I take it to be about the objective mind and in this respect I’m perfectly happy with what scientists find. But I’ll have to wait patiently for when they will genuinely try to address the issue of the ontological relation between the subjective mind and the objective one, although I will probably long be gone when this happens, if ever.

I know you don’t mind.
EB
 
I, sputter, gasp, I, ...never mind. I don't mind because I like preaching so I'll continue to do so. That most everyone accepts mind to represent what they are doing when speaking to themselves. Although some have silent movie experiences and others drift from smell to smell or some other sense mode, I get the gist of your lame contention. Obviously if it is not a mind then it doesn't matter that one subjectively believes and acts as if it were. So poof to your contention.

Now about this objective mind thing. If there is no subjective mind how can there be an objective something that isn't even subjective. I know. One can get there by experiment and manipulation. Wallah it turns out there is something called awareness when what is sensed and felt is grouped and held for some time. Is it justified to call these occasional awarenesses one's mind, one's objective mind? No. Awarenesses may rise up and be operable, interact with the outside world, change one in the world. There may not and several awarenesses existing with one at any moment whether awake or asleep. Each of these can be treated as awareness, but, damned if I know how these can be treated as 'mind'.

You live in a psychological pre-Galilean world my friend.
 
I'm aware of a thing, oh look now I'm aware of another thing, and another thing, and another thing.

Isn't this fun? I'm steering myself! Woo!
 
I, sputter, gasp, I, ...never mind. I don't mind because I like preaching so I'll continue to do so. That most everyone accepts mind to represent what they are doing when speaking to themselves. Although some have silent movie experiences and others drift from smell to smell or some other sense mode, I get the gist of your lame contention. Obviously if it is not a mind then it doesn't matter that one subjectively believes and acts as if it were. So poof to your contention.
Your quirky digression here doesn't make much sense. My point was that most people call “mind” whatever they subjectively experience. I didn’t say that what they subjectively experienced was the mind. So I fail to see how you get to convince yourself that you've poofed anything except perhaps a few neurons of your.

Now about this objective mind thing. If there is no subjective mind how can there be an objective something that isn't even subjective. I know. One can get there by experiment and manipulation. Wallah it turns out there is something called awareness when what is sensed and felt is grouped and held for some time. Is it justified to call these occasional awarenesses one's mind, one's objective mind? No.
Ok but it's you not me who claimed that "we call how the human brain acts mind". So now we don't?! You sure? Haven't you just contradicted yourself? Yeah, I guess you just did.


Awarenesses may rise up and be operable, interact with the outside world, change one in the world. There may not and several awarenesses existing with one at any moment whether awake or asleep. Each of these can be treated as awareness, but, damned if I know how these can be treated as 'mind'.
It's much too evanescent a digression. I’m not going to try to follow the quirkiness of your mind. Or whatever.

You live in a psychological pre-Galilean world my friend.
I actually haven't said anything that could possibly justify this brilliant repartee. You live in a psychological world where what other people actually say count as mere triggers for some loose thread you keep keeping in mind somehow.
EB
 
You live in a psychological world where what other people actually say count as mere triggers for some loose thread you keep keeping in mind somehow.
EB

Its called recursion, much like your responses across time. Ever hear the expression "No fire is put out by repeatedly waving empty buckets at it"?
 
You live in a psychological world where what other people actually say count as mere triggers for some loose thread you keep keeping in mind somehow.
EB

Its called recursion, much like your responses across time. Ever hear the expression "No fire is put out by repeatedly waving empty buckets at it"?
And you sure have one of those big empty buckets and you keep waving it frantically like mad. Wave, wave, little madman! :sadyes:
EB
 
It is quite a trick of the intellect to say this mind that I experience everyday, the only thing I experience everyday, is not real.

But to fool a mind, even self deception, requires having one.
 
You could start with what a mind is not what it does. You know, quit putting the house before the cart.
 
You could start with what a mind is not what it does. You know, quit putting the house before the cart.

Nah, it's better to start with measureable data. There's no point launching into a big discussion about what mind could be just so you can then claim that the entire subject has no basis. No we'll start with the data, same as with everything else.

Mind crops up in a number of repeatable experiments. Let's start with subject reports.

Subjects reliably, repeatedly, and across cultures, report the existence of subjective internal experience. These are consistent within groups, consistent across groups, and consistent over time.
Subjects report using these internal experiences, and the imputation of their presence within others, to reliably predict the actions of others. These predictions are measurably more accurate than chance.
Subjects report using these internal experiences as part of directing attention to and away from certain observable phenomena. This effect creates extremely large and easily detectable differences in what data is then reportable by the subject. While there is some evidence that unattended channels are still actually picked up at some level, the difference it makes in terms of processing is vast.
Subjects report using these internal experiences as part of complex tasks performance. Again, by changing purely internal experiential conditions, large physically observably changes in task performance are repeatably established.
Subjects reports of internal subjective experience correlate extremely well with neurological activity around similar actual experience. For example, the activity that accompanies playing with a particular toy is repeated when searching for the same toy, even though the actual toy itself is not present to provide stimulation. Rats navigating a three dimensional maze can be observed to reproduce the same neural activation patterns when trying to reach a location as occurred when they were actually there. In short, the neurological evidence backs up the existence of the same logical patterns that subjects report experiencing.

So, these findings are generally grouped under a theory of mind - that there is an internal set of subjective experiences that is strongly connected to memory, decision making, and task performance. You seem to be keen to disavow this theory, in defiance of the existing scientific evidence.

Can you explain why?


None may have difficulty answering that question. One of the reasons why theories of eliminative materialism are so unpopular at the moment is the criticism they've come under as to whether their insistence on eliminating subject experience does any work. It's not obvious that ignoring all mental events to the extent of denying them existence provides any benefit in terms of explanation or prediction. Given that it also leaves a huge number of scientific observations high and dry, it's not obvious why it should be adopted.

Mele has suggested that it is a phenomenon that originates from a handful of large US educational institutions that are seeking to rule out from consideration in the psychological sciences all questions relating to topics beyond neurophysiology. He notes that these same institutions share budgets between neurophysiological research and human behavioural studies. Statistically, the idea is far from established, but it feels like it's worth asking people who are seeking to restrict research in this way why they believe would be gained by doing so.

Unfortunately, most of the eliminativists I've spoken to seem to be very reluctant to answer this question. Maybe we'll do better this time?
 
thinking is done by the brain.
why not say here are a set of phenomenon that I don't know the answer to so therefor mind?
no you won't do that but you will wink and say "the mind"...and expect me to believe it.
basically it is "mind of the gaps" therefor mind...
 
It's really a matter of vocabulary. We are obviously not talking about the same thing. Like most people, I call "mind" whatever I experience subjectively. Obviously, for most people, there's a little bit more than that. People don't seem to think of the mind as only what they subjectively experience in the present. They assume that various parts of their mind probably exist that are unconscious now and some even remain always so, and in that they may be wrong. Scientists start from the different premise that the behaviour of people, as objectively identified by them, is a consequence of, broadly, the activity of their brain. I would agree that this species of mind doesn't exist as such. It's a mental construct, like we all produce about all sorts of things. Other scientists though prefer to assume that only the brain and its activities exist, which is pretty lame but here you are. Still other scientists will probably scoff at this idea and say instead that all there is are quarks and electromagnetic fields or whatever. Somebody must be wrong, though. But as observed by others here, it’s quite a feat of the imagination to deny existence to your own mind! One has to wonder if, maybe, it’s possible you really don’t have one. Yeah, it’s possible you are zombies, but I’m only prepared to believe that as a hard-to-believe possibility. Whatever the case, something you cannot do is know I don’t have a mind, especially if you don’t have a mind yourself which means you don’t even understand what I am talking about. Me on the other hand, I certainly know I have a mind. There is in all absolute certainty something I experience subjectively and I choose to call this “my mind”. That’s because I broadly accept the scientific theories that say that we perceive our environment only through sensory organs and therefore don’t have any sort of unmediated access to the reality of it. Of course, my mind may well be the product of my brain, or an activity of my brain, or even a part of my brain, whatever. But for now science doesn’t provide any explanation at all whatsoever as to this putative relation between my brain and my mind as subjective experience.
EB
 
memories are stored in the brain, the brain performs thinking.
thinking is a behavior.
sensory input and memories is what you experience.
this is really a weird topic
 
thinking is done by the brain.
why not say here are a set of phenomenon that I don't know the answer to so therefor mind?

Because we know a great deal more than that. We know how the information is organised within the mind, how the mind is effected by gross neurophysiological trauma or pharmacological effects, the performance characteristics of different mental structures and states, and so on. We can use theories of mind to successfully make predictions about human behaviour.

basically it is "mind of the gaps" therefor mind...

No, it's not. Look, 'God of the Gaps' is the idea that anything that is not adequately explained by science can be combined to make up God. The concept of mind is used as part of scientific theories that successfully explain human behaviour. We're getting useful empirical results out of it. You want to ditch it, you need a reason, and something that will replace it.

memories are stored in the brain, the brain performs thinking.
thinking is a behavior.

Well, sort of. It's not a measureable physical behaviour, although it has some physical correlates.

sensory input and memories is what you experience.

No, you don't experience sensory input. You experience a model based on sensory input. That's why we can change what you see by setting various environmental conditions, without changing what you're looking at.

this is really a weird topic

Well, yeah. Of course it is. It's also really good fun. But you have to let go the idea that it must be really simple, because it's not as straightforward as you might think.
 
um what is a mind?
plus there is video of memories being created in the brain... not so much for the mind...
 
um what is a mind?
plus there is video of memories being created in the brain... not so much for the mind...

If there were no mind you could stimulate a brain all day. There would be no reporting of memories.
 
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