Do theists sort of think that belieiving in god makes god real?

[abaddon]

I was looking for a more direct sign from you that the two beliefs "God exists" and "Tragedies happen" had even connected at all in your head.

Oh, they're connected. There's an interlock on the doors so only one can be explored at a time. Look at tragedies, lock out the idea of an omn-good god.
Look at God, lock out the ideas of tragedy.

Yeah, I've seen the "Poor people, if only they weren't at the wrong place at the wrong time" when suffering is talked about. And then "Glory to God!" about pleasant things.

A deliberate division is a connect but not the sort I was testing for. Some theists put the two things in the same room but resolve the dissonance with "those deaths are part of God's plan" or other explanation that isn't barred doors. I don't see that in Learner. It's always "Keep 'em separated" with him. The often-repeated "as theists see it" disclaimer looks like another tactic for not bothering to resolve conflicting ideas.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yeah.
"as theists see it" = "I'm satisfied with the platitude ..."

 

[humbleman]

In this case, hell with science.

Was caused because my own negligence or was caused by someone's fault?

If my own negligence I'll call 911, if someone's fault I'll call an attorney.

So you don't think modern medicine is a science......

Also, none of my business but if I were you I'd dial 911 either way. If you don't bleed to death, you can call your attorney later. If your bibble book says different, it's possible that you have a bogus edition written by elves. They are very mischievious.

In your frustration of not understanding a solid answer which includes your "Elves, Elvis and Elmos" you can't relax and get a sarcastic joke.

Storms destroying towns, hurricanes, earthquakes, cruel dictators, meteorites falling from the sky, diseases, plagues, Hillary Clinton, and lots and lots of more disgraces happening in this world, those are caused by disobedience of people.

Why you take the position of judging God?

Why such a foolish attitude of yours?

All of you are acting like the "philosopher, the ants and Mercury" story of Aesop.

A PHILOSOPHER witnessed from the shore the shipwreck of a vessel, of which the crew and passengers were all drowned. He inveighed against the injustice of Providence, which would for the sake of one criminal perchance sailing in the ship allow so many innocent persons to perish. As he was indulging in these reflections, he found himself surrounded by a whole army of Ants, near whose nest he was standing. One of them climbed up and stung him, and he immediately trampled them all to death with his foot. Mercury presented himself, and striking the Philosopher with his wand, said, “And are you indeed to make yourself a judge of the dealings of Providence, who hast thyself in a similar manner treated these poor Ants?”

 

[ruby sparks]

Storms destroying towns, hurricanes, earthquakes, cruel dictators, meteorites falling from the sky, diseases, plagues, Hillary Clinton, and lots and lots of more disgraces happening in this world, those are caused by disobedience of people.

Good one. Belatedly getting the humour now.

Maybe if you and Learner could just flag it up. I think I've been making the general mistake of thinking that youse actually believe a lot of the stuff you post.

 

[humbleman]

Attorney, call coming in on another line: "Do you mind holding?"

And he'll need to pray that the 'someone' at fault ain't a Christian either. Of course he can always rationalize that this other Christian ain't a True Christian, so he can sue to his hearts content...

I never pray.

 

[ruby sparks]

ps

humbleman,

Degeneration. Sarcastic joke, or not sarcastic joke?

Oh and on elves. I'm not joking when I say that believing in their existence is as valid as believing in god. Ditto leprechauns.

 

[Elixir]

ps

humbleman,

Degeneration. Sarcastic joke, or not sarcastic joke?

Oh and on elves. I'm not joking when I say that believing in their existence is as valid as believing in god. Ditto leprechauns.

 

[humbleman]

ps

humbleman,

Degeneration. Sarcastic joke, or not sarcastic joke?

Oh and on elves. I'm not joking when I say that believing in their existence is as valid as believing in god. Ditto leprechauns.

That... that was a good joke. ha ha ha ha... love it.... ha ha ha ha...

 

[Hermit]

How humans by themselves settled rules? What motivate them?

The principal rule is: " whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: do ye even so to them." Well, that is the King James Version of it, but the Bible is not the first time it was expressed in writing. Not by a long shot. The Papyrus Ramesseum, kept in the British Museum, was written somewhere between 1650 and 2000 BCE. On one side of it is a story titled The Eloquent Peasant. It includes the sentence: "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do." A later papyrus (ca. 664-323) puts the same command in a negative form: "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another."

Similar expressions of the same rule have been found among other sources in Sanskrit, Tamil, Greek, Persian and Roman texts, all of them predating the alleged birth of Jesus Christ.

We do not need to invoke a god for this law. The need to live as an individual in a society consisting of other individuals is what motivates it, which is why it was invented so many times in so many societies and so many places throughout history. You might say, rather than god-ordained, it is the product of mother. Mother Necessity, that is, mother of invention.

I do research the Hebrew "bible" at regular basis.

I can tell that or the erudite is hiding truths from the writings or, they just over passed lots of key words and obtained a corrupt interpretation.

The reason is that the old Hebrew is different than modern Hebrew not only in grammar composition of sentences but also in the pronunciation of the words.

The current pronunciation of the Hebrew biblical words is based on tradition. Many Hebrew versions come with "vowels" (symbols added to words) to indicate how that word must be pronounced and to give the proper definition of it.

Some errors are found with those "vowels" and with the interpretation of those words which gave the result of deviated ideas.

Same happens when reading those old Babylonian tablets. It is correct that we actually can translate those writings, but there are many words which in those times might had total different meaning and with that other meaning was the way they understood those writings.

This is not turning down what it has been established already, but it calls for continuous reviews of those translations.

__________________________________________________________________

The point here is how such "principles" started in humans minds.

Yes, there are many difficulties involved in reading, translating and interpreting ancient texts, and our understanding of them must be continuously re-examined. That said, right now, and for a considerable time, this is crystal clear: The Golden Rule is not a creation of the biblical god. It existed before it was cited in Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31, Leviticus 19:18 and Leviticus 19:34. Rather than being god-ordained, it has been formulated independently at other times in other places that never had any contact with Christianity, and in many cases, Judaism. The proverbial "Do unto others..." is the result of the necessity of individuals having to live in a society - a social construct rather than a divine command.

 

[Hermit]

Storms destroying towns, hurricanes, earthquakes, cruel dictators, meteorites falling from the sky, diseases, plagues, Hillary Clinton, and lots and lots of more disgraces happening in this world, those are caused by disobedience of people.

Yeah. Sure. A quarter million people, including hundreds of babies, were all disobedient, so your god-thingy lined them up on Asian shores and killed them with a tsunami in 2004.

Here are some of the quarter million disgraced people. Not a single obedient one among them.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

In this case, hell with science.

Was caused because my own negligence or was caused by someone's fault?

If my own negligence I'll call 911, if someone's fault I'll call an attorney.

So you don't think modern medicine is a science......

Also, none of my business but if I were you I'd dial 911 either way. If you don't bleed to death, you can call your attorney later. If your bibble book says different, it's possible that you have a bogus edition written by elves. They are very mischievious.

In your frustration of not understanding a solid answer which includes your "Elves, Elvis and Elmos" you can't relax and get a sarcastic joke.

Storms destroying towns, hurricanes, earthquakes, cruel dictators, meteorites falling from the sky, diseases, plagues, Hillary Clinton, and lots and lots of more disgraces happening in this world, those are caused by disobedience of people.

Why you take the position of judging God?

Why such a foolish attitude of yours?

All of you are acting like the "philosopher, the ants and Mercury" story of Aesop.

A PHILOSOPHER witnessed from the shore the shipwreck of a vessel, of which the crew and passengers were all drowned. He inveighed against the injustice of Providence, which would for the sake of one criminal perchance sailing in the ship allow so many innocent persons to perish. As he was indulging in these reflections, he found himself surrounded by a whole army of Ants, near whose nest he was standing. One of them climbed up and stung him, and he immediately trampled them all to death with his foot. Mercury presented himself, and striking the Philosopher with his wand, said, “And are you indeed to make yourself a judge of the dealings of Providence, who hast thyself in a similar manner treated these poor Ants?”

Ya, and the point of that story is that the guy really doesn’t care about the ants. He destroys them because they annoyed him and their lives really don’t matter.

However, you’re claiming that God does care about us and yet destroys us for annoying him anyways. If the central message of Christianity was that God thinks of us as ants and we all must live in terror of His Mighty Foot, that story would be relevant to the conversation. That’s not what Christianity is about, though, so how we deal with ants isn’t a relevant comparison to how God is supposed to deal with us.

 

[Learner]

So...in a sense you'd say they're NOT an accepted part of the biosphere (or whatever), but a direct tool of the divine, to punish people for various things. So, back to them being evil, how do you explain them?

From the perspective of the bible which I believe is "consistent" . God no longer interacts directly

So....you believe in the bible, which says you DON'T agree that tsunamis are the direct penal actions of God?

Got it.

Its part of the "biosphere" so called ..... God will this time "not" (or far less so) not prevent any outcome resulting from what one decides to do!" The bible is consistent. That direct interaction as with the Israelites or Jesus's time has ended when we went our own way. (Reason for Jesus's apearance because of going our own way) as according to Christianity.

HE is out of the picture so to speak just as non theists think anyway - The result therefore being the same.

Its not Gods world (anymore) as its sometimes said which then leaves ... what ever one thinks.
Its someone else's world.

 

[Hermit]

So...in a sense you'd say they're NOT an accepted part of the biosphere (or whatever), but a direct tool of the divine, to punish people for various things. So, back to them being evil, how do you explain them?

From the perspective of the bible which I believe is "consistent" . God no longer interacts directly

So....you believe in the bible, which says you DON'T agree that tsunamis are the direct penal actions of God?

Got it.

Its part of the "biosphere" so called ..... God will this time "not" prevent any outcome resulting from what one decides to do!" The bible is consistent. That direct interaction as with the Israelites or Jesus's time has ended when we went our own way. (Reason for Jesus's apearance because of going our own way)

Tsunamis are not part of the biosphere. However, they are, along with earthquakes that cause them, part of what is laughingly called god's design.

 

[Learner]

How does a baby with cancer be wise?

Don't you mean the human race as a whole or maybe even the generations of parents be wise. What have they learn't since ...since... we came from monkeys?

And I've asked twice before this, does god know?


It's ok. It's tricky. And you don't have a ready answer. No one does. That's why it's so tricky. I'm not trying to get you to not believe in god. But hopefully you can see why things like that (and river blindness worms and eternal punishment) don't really assist much in strengthening the idea there's a truly loving creator god (which would literally be a lovely thing if it were true). I'm pretty sure you'll believe in one, almost no matter what, and I promise I'm not going to use the phrase Stockholm Syndrone whoops I did.

Apologies .. Yes of course He knows ... it's just that we're basically on our own now , so to speak. (Many would prefer it that way anyway)

EDIT: Perhaps not quite alone apart from the influencial whispers of the dark forces that maybe lurking. (biblical perspective)

 

[Learner]

Yeah. Sure. A quarter million people, including hundreds of babies, were all disobedient, so your god-thingy lined them up on Asian shores and killed them with a tsunami in 2004.

Here are some of the quarter million disgraced people. Not a single obedient one among them.

Rather than repeat a similar post this would be reply to your post.
https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?12558-Do-theists-sort-of-think-that-belieiving-in-god-makes-god-real&p=504422&viewfull=1#post504422

 

[Learner]

"GPS-based system could have prevented deadly train crash"

God could have prevented the deadly train crash. So why didn't he?

Learner must blame the victim. The alternative is to blame whatever god he believes in the existence of, and that is unacceptable to him. Same with earthquakes. I note he has studiously ignored this post. If he does decide to reply to it, I bet it'll be more victim blaming. He's already said that if people get killed by tsunamis, its their own fault for living on the coast. Let them fish on the mountains, I suppose. Nobody ever should live on the coast. Tsunamis, you know. God's intelligent design.

So many posts since I left ... gotta admire Remez Don't know how he answers everyone. (Humbles too)

You have a habit of jumping the gun or do seem impatient for my response but its understandable. I am not as spontaneous as our forum buddies or even yourself. But blaming the victim is missused here. The blame would usually lie with those in charge (normal with crowd reactions) that could have put in those safety systems.

Just as people BLAME officials or governments that are called out for not putting in place measures or responding to disasters. Sensible Caution and safety more or less is what my previous posts were more about. i.e. don't build tall buildings" around fault lines (don't build them too high). Don't build unsupported or poor constructions and we do., is all. Lack of wisdom.

Although "some" blame does goes to those that harm themselves in certain circumstances.

 

[Hermit]

Just as people BLAME officials or governments that are called out for not putting in place measures or responding to disasters. Sensible Caution and safety more or less is what my previous posts were more about. i.e. don't build tall buildings" around fault lines (don't build them too high). Don't build unsupported or poor constructions and we do., is all. Lack of wisdom.

Although "some" blame does goes to those that harm themselves in certain circumstances.

What is it with these Christians who keep praising their supposed god every time someone makes a seemingly miraculous escape and blame the victims of those who don't for their fate?

The blame, if you want to call cause blame, for the quarter million dead lies nowhere else but the earthquake that generated the tsunami. Unless, that is, you believe both to be caused by a capricious, cruel god.

 

[Hermit]

Yeah. Sure. A quarter million people, including hundreds of babies, were all disobedient, so your god-thingy lined them up on Asian shores and killed them with a tsunami in 2004.

Here are some of the quarter million disgraced people. Not a single obedient one among them.

Rather than repeat a similar post this would be reply to your post.
https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?12558-Do-theists-sort-of-think-that-belieiving-in-god-makes-god-real&p=504422&viewfull=1#post504422

You didn't read my reply to it, did you? It's right underneath yours.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Learner must blame the victim. The alternative is to blame whatever god he believes in the existence of, and that is unacceptable to him. Same with earthquakes. I note he has studiously ignored this post. If he does decide to reply to it, I bet it'll be more victim blaming. He's already said that if people get killed by tsunamis, its their own fault for living on the coast. Let them fish on the mountains, I suppose. Nobody ever should live on the coast. Tsunamis, you know. God's intelligent design.

So many posts since I left ... gotta admire Remez Don't know how he answers everyone. (Humbles too)

You have a habit of jumping the gun or do seem impatient for my response but its understandable. I am not as spontaneous as our forum buddies or even yourself. But blaming the victim is missused here. The blame would usually lie with those in charge (normal with crowd reactions) that could have put in those safety systems.

Just as people BLAME officials or governments that are called out for not putting in place measures or responding to disasters. Sensible Caution and safety more or less is what my previous posts were more about. i.e. don't build tall buildings" around fault lines (don't build them too high). Don't build unsupported or poor constructions and we do., is all. Lack of wisdom.

Although "some" blame does goes to those that harm themselves in certain circumstances.

Well, the blame is warranted if those officials knew that a disaster was going to happen, did nothing to prevent it and then people got hurt or killed in that disaster - especially if the disaster occurred because of something they did.

As an analogy, say that the landlord of a building is omniscient and can see the future. He knows that there is going to be a major fire in the building in the middle of the night next week as a direct result of the decisions he's made about how to set up the building and yet doesn't fix any of the broken fire alarms or post a note in the lobby informing residents of this fact. He would have liability for any injuries or death which happen because of this fire and putting some of the blame on him would be warranted.

 

[Keith&Co.]

putting some of the blame on him would be warranted.

SOME? If he's omniscient, and did not do everything in his power to avert the problem or at least warn everyone who would be affected, then he's due quite a bit more than 'some.'

Who else COULD be to blame?
The person who rents from an omniscient landlord, stupidly believing he'd lift a finger to save her from a fire he could also have prevented? Silly woman should have installed her own smoke detectors and bought her own fire escape...