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Does Islamophobia change the game?

Perspicuo

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Basic Beliefs
Empiricist, ergo agnostic
After Chapel Hill, is defending Muslims now more important than debunking Islam?

People are confusing the arguments against Islam as indictments against Muslims. It's not hard to see the reason. When you say members of a group are doing and have done horrible things for some time... and your neighbor belongs to that grouping, it's easy to be angry at that person, conscious or not so consciously.

Sure, there's a difference, but that's more for eggheads and experts than for the populace. It's similar to "Hate the sin not the sinner". Theologians understand it, but the hoi polloi does not. And we're all hoi polloi at some point. We all harbor impulses we hide to even our own selves, we all have secret longings and grudges we can easily dish out to others.

"Do not hate" cannot be stressed enough. Or can it?
 
After Chapel Hill, is defending Muslims now more important than debunking Islam?

I think defending religious freedom has always been more important that criticising religion. Particularly for atheists.
 
We still have no evidence that Chapel Hill was anti-Muslim. This is just the usual attempts to pretend Muslims are the victims.
 
We still have no evidence that Chapel Hill was anti-Muslim. This is just the usual attempts to pretend Muslims are the victims.

"Up to now" it's pretty obvious it is. Future research may tip the scale back, but "up to now", it's well into hate crime territory.

And let's just suppose this situation will remain so forever and the mass murder was due to hatred. This is not an impossible situation, a valid one for a philosophical discussion, as this is not the "Political Discussions" section, where such a polemic would belong.
 
After Chapel Hill, is defending Muslims now more important than debunking Islam?

I think defending religious freedom has always been more important that criticising religion. Particularly for atheists.

I agree. As long as religionists are not allowed to impose on others, their influence seems to wane naturally - kids brought up in strictly religious environments who can mix with non-religious (or differently religious) kids don't take long to grasp that their parent's beliefs don't confer any special advantages, and that their "differently religious" friends are neither monsters nor sub-humans.

Criticising religion tends to reinforce it; religionists love to claim that they are being persecuted, and tend to double-down on their illogical beliefs when exposed to logical criticism. Remove the barriers to a non-newtonian fluid flowing through a funnel, and it will slowly drain away. Try to force it though, and it becomes rigid and persists for longer than it would if left to its own devices.
 
We still have no evidence that Chapel Hill was anti-Muslim. This is just the usual attempts to pretend Muslims are the victims.

"Up to now" it's pretty obvious it is. Future research may tip the scale back, but "up to now", it's well into hate crime territory.

And let's just suppose this situation will remain so forever and the mass murder was due to hatred. This is not an impossible situation, a valid one for a philosophical discussion, as this is not the "Political Discussions" section, where such a polemic would belong.

You're the one who make the unsupported assertion that Chapel Hill is anti-Muslim.

I do agree this probably belongs in PD but you started it in Morals & Principals, that doesn't give you any immunity from being challenged on unsupported assertions.
 
"Up to now" it's pretty obvious it is. Future research may tip the scale back, but "up to now", it's well into hate crime territory.

And let's just suppose this situation will remain so forever and the mass murder was due to hatred. This is not an impossible situation, a valid one for a philosophical discussion, as this is not the "Political Discussions" section, where such a polemic would belong.

You're the one who make the unsupported assertion that Chapel Hill is anti-Muslim.

I do agree this probably belongs in PD but you started it in Morals & Principals, that doesn't give you any immunity from being challenged on unsupported assertions.

If I hadn't said "And let's just suppose". Once again, this is the philosophy section. Please dash off to the Political Discussions section where you can debate-rage to your heart's delight.
 
Ok, so you're seeing kind of distinction between arguements against Muslims, and arguements against Islam.

Given that Islam is a Muslim practice, it's quite hard to separate the two in practice. Can you give some indication as how you are separating the following?:

a) Muslims, a group of people identified solely through their practice of Islam
b) Islam, a practice identified as being as performed only by Muslims

Because it seems that in each case the identifier is the same - you're either arguing about a particular practice, or about a group identified only through that same particular practice.
 
After Chapel Hill, is defending Muslims now more important than debunking Islam?
Why would anyone feel the need to debunk Islam?

People are confusing the arguments against Islam as indictments against Muslims. It's not hard to see the reason. When you say members of a group are doing and have done horrible things for some time... and your neighbor belongs to that grouping, it's easy to be angry at that person, conscious or not so consciously.
Stalin wasn't Islamic.
But I know "Islamic" people. Don't you know some? They seem just the same as anyone else. Aren't they just the same?

I follow global events , but I don't see Islamic people acting differently in any way...am I missing something?
 
Both Islamophobia and militant Islam are symptoms of, among other things, a remarkable lack of curiosity about other people. As humans we can do a lot more with childhood education to take advantage of that curiosity when it is at its peak, at least on the Islamophobia side. For fundamentalist Islam, there is a lot more childhood indoctrination that needs to be stopped and/or reversed before comparative religion can be part of a liberal education. Tragically, for some adults it may already be too late, as their lack of curiosity has been generously rewarded by their in-groups for so long, on both sides.
 
After Chapel Hill, is defending Muslims now more important than debunking Islam?

Chapel Hill means nothing, because the evidence strongly shows that Islam and being Muslim has zero to do the shootings.


People are confusing the arguments against Islam as indictments against Muslims.

Show the evidence for this (Again, Chapel Hill is evidence of nothing related to atheist critiques of Islam). Those who have committed violence against random Muslims just for being Muslim are not inspired by rational critiques about the dangers of Islamic ideas (most of which are equally dangerous in Chrisitianity).
Violence against Muslims for being Muslim is rooted in tribal belonging to other groups fighting for the same authoritarian and irrational territory.
It existed long before any atheistic critiques of Islam and there is zero evidence that it is on the rise just because a couple of Atheists that no one other than atheists listen to have increased the critique directed at Islam. Keep in mind that atheists are less likely than any other religious grouping to commit violence against Muslims or anyone else.

It's not hard to see the reason. When you say members of a group are doing and have done horrible things for some time... and your neighbor belongs to that grouping, it's easy to be angry at that person, conscious or not so consciously.

There is nothing immoral about anger. Anger is very healthy and socially important emotion at the heart of nearly all moral and political progress.
Ideas and values (which are at the heart of religious views) matter and are the foundation of all injustice and immorality. Such ideas ought to make decent people angry, and angry at those who support, espouse, or give social support to those ideas. People are not killed because of such anger, and such anger is a tool that does as much good as harm.


Sure, there's a difference, but that's more for eggheads and experts than for the populace.
The meaningful difference is between anger and violence, and it is not at all subtle or hard to stand, and is for everyone to understand, and it is in fact grossly immoral not to put forth the tiny effort to understand it.

Pro-equality rhetoric in the 1960's led people to feel anger toward the establishment, toward people in the South, toward whites, toward people who belonged to religious sects that endorsed (and still do) inequality. Should those who sought to fight against ideas that promote injustice and inequality (which btw, Islam and Christianity both do) have kept their mouths shut because people might experience the emotion of anger and a few looking for an excuse for violence might misuse those criticisms?
 
Why would anyone feel the need to debunk Islam?

Because it is a false and stupid belief system. It should be challenged and opposed the same way as Christianity, Flat-Earthism, 9/11-Truthism, anti-global-warming-isms, Scientology, Hinduism, Wicca and every other fake belief system which leaves its adherents knowing less about the world than they would without the beliefs.

Islam is dumb. That's reason enough to debunk it. It's not a good reason to villify people who practice it, but you can respect their right to have a belief without offering similar respect to the actual contents of the belief.
 
I think defending religious freedom has always been more important that criticising religion. Particularly for atheists.

I agree. As long as religionists are not allowed to impose on others, their influence seems to wane naturally -

The entire purpose of organized religion, and most ideas and values at the heart of Abrahamic monotheism, is to impose upon and control others. It is well designed for the purpose which is why it inherently promotes authoritarian imposition and control whenever those ideas are taken seriously. This impact of religion only fails to arise among people who do not actually take those ideas seriously and defer to secular ideas and ethics, despite any superficial group affiliation they might retain.
These religions are inherently aggressive and seek to gain ever more control, even without any opposition. They are not merely defensive, and do only aggress when provoked. Thus, active opposition to them does not increase their attack but is required fight back their ever aggressive tendencies.
The only reason that religiosity is waning currently is because of the modern world created by a science-fuel enlightenment in which religion was opposed and its effort to control actively resisted. Open philosophical and political critiques of religion were a crucial part of what allowed for modern secular societies rather than the theocracies that religions inherently push for.


kids brought up in strictly religious environments who can mix with non-religious (or differently religious) kids don't take long to grasp that their parent's beliefs don't confer any special advantages, and that their "differently religious" friends are neither monsters nor sub-humans.

Not true. Most kids brought up in strict religious environment maintain or at least return to those views, despite being emersed in a modern pluralistic world.
The biggest attackers of the religious are the religious. Those most open to other religions are precisely those with minimal actual belief in their own religion beyond its superficial trappings. Exposure to critiques of religious ideas and ethics are often what lead many people to either leaving their religion or becoming less religious than they were raised, and less religious means less likely to support violence against other religions.


Criticising religion tends to reinforce it;
The evidence strongly shows the opposite. Religion ruled and grew ever more in power for centuries, and during that time there was almost no open criticism of religion, except from one religion toward another. Over the last 500 years open criticism of religion has been ever increasing and religions rule has been ever weakening. This covariance is not only true over time but between places. The more a country or a region withing a country has open criticism of religion, the more religions influence is on the wane.


religionists love to claim that they are being persecuted,

Yes, and it is all invented bullshit that they do even in the absence of criticism, showing that real criticism has no impact on how much the claim persecution, which is really only an excuse to "fight back" which really means oppress others, which is part of the inherent authoritarian aggression of religion that must be opposed or it consumes as it did for most of human civilization.


and tend to double-down on their illogical beliefs when exposed to logical criticism.
This is somewhat true, but it is a short term effect, and they don't really increase in their strength of belief, they just double-down on their terrible attempts at justifying those beliefs.

Remove the barriers to a non-newtonian fluid flowing through a funnel, and it will slowly drain away. Try to force it though, and it becomes rigid and persists for longer than it would if left to its own devices.

Yeah, that is the danger of analogies, having one seems like "evidence" but it isn't, because the evidence is what determines whether an analogy is valid, and in this case it isn't. Criticism is not a barrier to keeping religion from flowing away, but rather a barrier keeping the never ending supply of fluid of religion from filling into the funnel in the first place. Your analogy wrongly presumes a very finite supply of religion (fluid). It is infinite (as long as humans exist), thus will never "drain away", and designed to aggressively find new ways to be the only thing allowed in the funnel. Reducing how much religion is in the funnel is done opposing its pathway into the funnel and poking holes in the funnel to increase how much is leaving relation to how much is getting in. Support for those efforts to divert the fluid from the funnel and poke holes to let more drain out only comes with open critique that exposes the inherent opposition that fluid has with the other things (reason, progress, liberty, equality, justice) that most people claims to care about.
 
Ron, I think what you are saying about Abrahamic monotheisms is mostly true, but Jews are generally not as keen on 'spreading the word' as the other religions of the Book. Judaism is the original Abrahamic monotheism, after all. I think they are generally happy with imposing control on their own flock and not worrying about the others.
 
Ron, I think what you are saying about Abrahamic monotheisms is mostly true, but Jews are generally not as keen on 'spreading the word' as the other religions of the Book. Judaism is the original Abrahamic monotheism, after all. I think they are generally happy with imposing control on their own flock and not worrying about the others.


Agreed, with some qualification. The Jewish God is certainly as imperialistic, authoritarian, and "kill the outsiders" as any. However, Jews have gotten their asses kicked for much of history and have not had the concentrated power to expand their rule. Controlling their "own flock" is the only realistic option open to them, but they do that with a heavy, authoritarian, intolerant, and anti-liberty fist. And doing so is no more forgivable than controlling "others", because the fact is that everyone who isn't you is an "other" whom it is immoral to control and rob them of their liberty. IOW, as Israel shows (the only place where believing Jews dominate government) Judaism pushes for theocracy and is as incompatible with the values of liberty, reason, and equality as other Abrahamic monotheisms.

Circling back to the OP, criticizing the ideas and the authoritarian, anti-reason values inherent to the major monotheisms is not only acceptable, it is a moral obligation and a requirement to defend the ground already gained in relation to enlightenment values (intellectual, moral, and political). The public voices that have done and are doing so, are to be commended. Where some of them have gone wrong is in understanding and conveying why it is that Islamists pose a greater threat currently. It is not because they are worse people or because the ideas of Islam are any worse than those of the Bible and Judeo-Christian leaders. It is because secularism (partly via open criticism of religion) has had more success in pushing back and restraining the impact of religion in the societies once ruled by Christianity, and despite seeming Christian majorities in many of those societies, it is largely a weakened superficial Christianity devoid of most of the bad ideas on which those religions were built. It is the inherent authoritarianism and unreason of theism and theistic religion that is the problem, and Islam is only more of a current problem because of mostly non-religious historical factors that led to secularism gaining more ground against Christian strongholds earlier than Islam. This should be the message, and it would be less easily co-opted by racial bigots within Christian heavy societies to single out Muslims.
 
Ron, I think what you are saying about Abrahamic monotheisms is mostly true, but Jews are generally not as keen on 'spreading the word' as the other religions of the Book. Judaism is the original Abrahamic monotheism, after all. I think they are generally happy with imposing control on their own flock and not worrying about the others.


Agreed, with some qualification. The Jewish God is certainly as imperialistic, authoritarian, and "kill the outsiders" as any. However, Jews have gotten their asses kicked for much of history and have not had the concentrated power to expand their rule. Controlling their "own flock" is the only realistic option open to them, but they do that with a heavy, authoritarian, intolerant, and anti-liberty fist. And doing so is no more forgivable than controlling "others", because the fact is that everyone who isn't you is an "other" whom it is immoral to control and rob them of their liberty. IOW, as Israel shows (the only place where believing Jews dominate government) Judaism pushes for theocracy and is as incompatible with the values of liberty, reason, and equality as other Abrahamic monotheisms.

But unless I am mistaken, Israel is officially secular democracy, not a theocratic dictatorship. I'm not defending Israel's actions with regards to Palestine, but they don't seem to be motivated by religion, at least not explicitly. And life in Israel is nowhere near as draconian as places where sharia is law. I think there is plenty of reason to oppose monotheism, but painting them all as equally blameworthy in how they treat themselves and the world is not useful or accurate, in my opinion.
 
Ok, so you're seeing kind of distinction between arguements against Muslims, and arguements against Islam.

Given that Islam is a Muslim practice, it's quite hard to separate the two in practice. Can you give some indication as how you are separating the following?:

a) Muslims, a group of people identified solely through their practice of Islam
b) Islam, a practice identified as being as performed only by Muslims

Because it seems that in each case the identifier is the same - you're either arguing about a particular practice, or about a group identified only through that same particular practice.

That is not true. "Muslim" is very much a cultural marker, not necessarilya religious.
 
Ok, so you're seeing kind of distinction between arguements against Muslims, and arguements against Islam.

Given that Islam is a Muslim practice, it's quite hard to separate the two in practice. Can you give some indication as how you are separating the following?:

a) Muslims, a group of people identified solely through their practice of Islam
b) Islam, a practice identified as being as performed only by Muslims

Because it seems that in each case the identifier is the same - you're either arguing about a particular practice, or about a group identified only through that same particular practice.

That is not true. "Muslim" is very much a cultural marker, not necessarilya religious.

Can you give an example of a christian muslim? Or an atheist one?
 
After Chapel Hill, is defending Muslims now more important than debunking Islam?

People are confusing the arguments against Islam as indictments against Muslims. It's not hard to see the reason. When you say members of a group are doing and have done horrible things for some time... and your neighbor belongs to that grouping, it's easy to be angry at that person, conscious or not so consciously.

Sure, there's a difference, but that's more for eggheads and experts than for the populace. It's similar to "Hate the sin not the sinner". Theologians understand it, but the hoi polloi does not. And we're all hoi polloi at some point. We all harbor impulses we hide to even our own selves, we all have secret longings and grudges we can easily dish out to others.

"Do not hate" cannot be stressed enough. Or can it?

I think this attitude is a bit condescending to the public. We all have to grow up and put our big pants on. We have to continue to stress the difference between criticizing ideas and criticizing people until they get it. Because frankly, there are too many ideas out there that NEED to be critically examined, criticized, satirized and openly mocked if necessary because they're very dangerous ideas. No idea should be safe from this.
 
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