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Does reality really exist? Who wants to know?

Then answer the question: what does ”I exist” really mean?

Do Fgygvns exists?

If that had been the question, the professor would have had no good reason to reply, "Who wants to know". He would ask, "What does "Fgygvns" mean?".


Yes, if we can observe features of the reality, or deduce theese features, and it is reasonable to call them Fgygvns.
There isnt any metaphysical about that.
So if you can observe yourself then you exist.

You dont any sophistic teachers to realize that.

But that example with tr professor and student doeznt show shit.

???

Look again at what fast said in the very post you're replying to:
I don't think the answer given, "who wants to know?" was intended to provide absolute proof to the idea you're entertaining. The idea behind the answer was to show good reasoning that one exists when one wants to know something, for there can be no entity wanting without an entity.

I think you'd need to pay a bit more attention to what people say.
EB
 
underseer gets it
Most people over the age of 14 wouldnt quibble with the properly basic / ontological categories of reality (existence) and its opposite. It's not something one argues about - one just cooperates with the inevitible and accepts that we didn't cause our own state of existence.
Having said that, most people believe in a Higher Power.
 
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The words from William Lane Craig quoted below by Lion IRC seem to mean something important.

But what exactly do you think?
EB

William Lane Craig Q&A page once recounted how questions about the nature of existence/reality can be dealt with.

Student : Does reality really exist?
WLC : Who wants to know?

I'm not sure, I even doubt very much, that Craig himself ever put the question in this way, but it still works, again using the Cogito.

If the student does want to know, then, per the Cogito, he should know he himself exists, not necessarily as an actual student, but as the "I" asking the question, if any. And if this "I" exists, then it should know that at least that much reality exists.

And, again, as fast pointed out, the (WLC/professor) answer is not absolute proof of existence, just a rational argument for the benefit of the person asking the question. So, if you're also asking the same question, you can use the argument for yourself, and through the Cogito, deduce that reality does exist because you know you yourself exist.

At least, that arguably one way to interpret it.
EB
 
underseer gets it
Most people over the age of 14 wouldnt quibble with the properly basic / ontological categories of reality (existence) and its opposite. It's not something one argues about - one just cooperates with the inevitible and accepts that we didn't cause our own state of existence.

Yeah, but most people don't quibble at all with Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity either.

Having said that, most people believe in a Higher Power.

And then what? Probably most people believe in many different kinds of higher power. The list of what people believe is just mind boggling. So, why exactly would that make it even reasonable to believe in some kind of Higher Power?
EB
 
Okay, let's have a bit of context.

Here's a more contextualised version:
A first-year philosophy student who has been reading Descartes, burst into his professor's office early one morning, bleary-eyed, unshaven—he has obviously been up all night. "Professor," he implores, "you have to tell me. Do I exist?" The professor looks at him a moment and says, "Who wants to know?"

This version is closer to that of William Lane Craig. The meaning I think is the same as his.

Does this change your initial interpretation?
EB


There was a bit more than that, and also a bit more to it, as we should expect from people like Craig, of course.

So, here is the whole extract:

I'm reminded of the story of the first-year philosophy student who had been reading Descartes. He burst into his professor's office early one morning, blearyeyed, unshaven—he'd obviously been up all night. “Professor, you've got to tell me,” he implored. “Do I exist?” The professor looked at him a moment and then said, “Who wants to know?” If resisting the kalam cosmological argument requires that you deny your own existence, then the cost is far too high.

Come Let Us Reason: New Essays in Christian Apologetics
edited by Paul Copan, William Lane Craig

https://books.google.fr/books?id=g8...een reading Descartes. He burst into"&f=false

I don't personally think that Craig could ever be successful in convincing me that resisting the kalam cosmological argument requires that you deny your own existence. Who would?
EB
 
Yeah, it's definitely too gross an oversimplification.

First none of that is, or has anything to do with, the Cogito. Bad start!

Also, the first two lines are not Descartes' argument for the existence of God.

The Cogito itself doesn't address the question of the existence of God or of the material world, at all. The Cogito is entirely about the existence of the subjective "I". And that's its force because we can all make it our own, and think for ourselves, "I think, therefore I am". I certainly can.

Elsewhere, Descartes comes to the existence of the material world, and relies on the dubious argument that God wouldn't deceive us in making us believe there's a material world, so there has to be one.

However, even this argument is slightly better that it is usually credited for, because at least all those people who believe in the kind of God Descartes is talking about should also believe that the material world exists, too, at least for the reason he gives. Here again, it is for the listener to make up their own mind. But, non-believers will obviously think the argument is crap.



I assume you're using the word "reality" to mean the material world. But, usually, reality is thought of as including our own mind. And if Descartes's Cogito shows that you can be certain that you exist, then you can be certain that reality exists too. This is arguably the sense of the professor's answer "Who wants to know".

Other than that, who above the age of 14 gives a fuck about whether or not reality is real?

Even if this is all a simulation, I'm still stuck in this simulation and I'm stuck living by the rules of this simulated reality. I honestly couldn't give a flying fuck if reality is real or not.

That must be something for each of us to decide for ourselves.
EB

Wait, seriously?

I exist, therefore reality exists?

That's even worse than what I suggested, and I don't see how it counters any of the arguments made over the centuries.
 
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Wait, seriously?

I exist, therefore reality exists?

???

I don't even know what your point could possibly be here, except perhaps just a case of bad temper. Nothing I would know what to do about.

That's even worse than what I suggested, and I don't see how it counters any of the arguments made over the centuries.

About what?

If you can't articulate your views properly, there's no much point for anyone to reply to whatever you're actually saying.

And of course, your initial post was full of serious mistakes, so why bother with this one?

Have a nice day on me.
EB
 
There is a difference between "X is real" and "X exists," but the difference between their respective opposites perplexes me.
 
It is a stupid question to ask.

The initial question is asking about what a consciousness believes is connected in some way to it's perceptions.

I perceive the tree.

Is the perception connected to something real?

The skier who runs into the tree probably believes so.

The thing asking is the thing having the perceptions.

So asking who wants to know is besides the point.
 
There is a difference between "X is real" and "X exists,"

Well, of course. They're not spelt the same.

Okay, you will say it's not what you meant. Well, sure, but whether there's is a difference between X and Y is entirely dependent on what people mean by X and Y. Which you would need to address.

but the difference between their respective opposites perplexes me.

I can see why. The difference between "laer si X" and "stsixe X" is really perplexing. :D
EB
 
There is a difference between "X is real" and "X exists,"

Well, of course. They're not spelt the same.

Okay, you will say it's not what you meant. Well, sure, but whether there's is a difference between X and Y is entirely dependent on what people mean by X and Y. Which you would need to address.

but the difference between their respective opposites perplexes me.

I can see why. The difference between "laer si X" and "stsixe X" is really perplexing. :D
EB
In philosophy (I have learned), there is something known as the use-mention distinction. When I say "the cat is on the mat," I'm using the words. If we transition our conversation and begin to talk about words themselves (for instance, the word "cat" has three letters and has a meaning and a referent), then that's considered mentioning the word.

Also, it's customary to distinguish between the two in writing by placing words mentioned in double quotes; hence, note the difference between cat and "cat." If I say the cat is on the mat, i'm not saying the word, "cat" is on the word, "mat."

Things can still get tricky. The opposite of cold is hot, but the opposite of idea applies but not to the words--although that's probably controversial as people would try to apply reason that may not fit. For instance, we can't feed or pet the word "cat." Words aren't the kinds of things that can be fed or pet, yet upon hearing "how do you spell cat?," it's no wonder one will parse this to mean "how do you spell the word, "cat?" Do words have opposites--or their meanings! Meanings.

The word, "real" is (of course ambiguous--story of my life!) and I do not intend to use the meaning associated with being opposed with the words "counterfeit" or "fake." In the context where I'm pitting the meanings of the words "real" and "exist" against each other, I'm using the word "real" in the sense of "not imaginary." If something is not real, then there's a good chance that it's imaginary, right? No. The relationship is perplexing. It's better to say that if something is not imaginary, then it's real, if it exists; thus, something being real presupposes that it exists, but that is not the case with that which is imaginary, as if something imaginary could be on a grand list of all things that exist.

If someone asks me, "hey, are unicorns real?, if I'm not especially careful, I might say (and correctly say) that they do not exist, but that doesn't answer the question. Intuitively, we might think that if something doesn't exist that it's therefore imaginary, but I strongly believe there's good reason to suspect that's faulty reasoning--even if true. The opposite of "real" is not identical with its negation leaving room for something that perplexes the hell out of me.

Things can't magically shift from being in the category of what's real to being imaginary or vice versa. Imagine there's a dog in your closet and you go to the closet and are surprised to find a dog. You didn't find an imaginary dog. The dog is real. The closet is where I might look for a unicorn, not the mind, yet people lump them in with the imagination even though they look elsewhere to find one. Any way, the "I can't find it and it's not here and therefore it's imaginary" idea is not built on a foundation as strong as it might otherwise appear. It might simply not exist but would very much be real if it did. It's not apart of or stemming from imagination.

When confronted with the question, "does reality exist?," the complexity is compounded. First, I would dispel the subjective notion of reality as being people specific. For instance, the idea of everyone having their own reality appears to be to me nothing much more than confusing perceptions which are subject dependent. To say of something that it exists is to say of something that it has properties. That's helping to communicate meaning, not a formula for determining existence. If something has properties, then something exists. Circular, but it's supposed to be.

Does reality have properties? Well, if something is real, it does. It presupposes it. "Reality" vs "real." Eh, close enough. I say yes, reality exists.
 
I don't think the answer given, "who wants to know?" was intended to provide absolute proof to the idea you're entertaining. The idea behind the answer was to show good reasoning that one exists when one wants to know something, for there can be no entity wanting without an entity.

Yes. Exactly.
EB
Said the Boltzmann brain to itself as it was in a configuration which caused it to think it thought the universe existed before it dissipated in a puff of illogic.
 
Said the Boltzmann brain to itself as it was in a configuration which caused it to think it thought the universe existed before it dissipated in a puff of illogic.

Aren't you also talking about your own brain here?

Hey, are you still there?! Hello? Hello? Are you still there? Gosh, he's gone!


I assume it's the illogic of his last thought that did him in.

We're already missing you! :(
EB
 
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