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Doesn't salt water erode concrete?

DrZoidberg

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I'm reading Kim Stanley Robinson's New York 2140. It's about the effects of global warming. New York had become a kind of Venice with the streets flooded. Just one problem. Venice is built on stone foundations. It was built on the sea from the beginning. New York... not so much. Wouldn't the skyscrapers rapidly erode and collapse?

I tried looking it up and calculating. I didn't find a good answer. Do you guys know?

On the topic. Does anybody know about a good science fiction book about the effects of global warming? This one is alright. But it's only about a two year period. I'd like one that has a more general take on it. Yes, I'm aware science doesn't really know. But science fiction authors are allowed to guess about the stuff they don't know.
 
June 1944, allied forces used concrete structures to make a port in Normandy
Called Mulberry. Concrete elements are eroding on the beaches since that day.
They still look ok after nearly 7 decades of exposure of salt water, wind and tides.
BUT
They are not load-bearing.
So I guess most buildings in New York would collapse rather quickly when permanently exposed to the sea.
 
June 1944, allied forces used concrete structures to make a port in Normandy
Called Mulberry. Concrete elements are eroding on the beaches since that day.
They still look ok after nearly 7 decades of exposure of salt water, wind and tides.
BUT
They are not load-bearing.
So I guess most buildings in New York would collapse rather quickly when permanently exposed to the sea.

By the looks of it that is just concrete. The problem is with re-enforced concrete. As soon as there's cracks the salt water erodes the steel girders. Once rust sets in the concrete starts exploding outward, expanding the cracks, which is bad. New York is all re-enforced concrete. Old timey tall buildings that are just built using bricks and mortar will be fine. So the churches will stick around. But the rest should be gone quickly.
 
I wonder if it's possible to prop up the houses by filling the submerged levels with underwater concrete? That's the technique used for making bridge pylons. It's solid concrete with the steel girders embedded deep inside. So deep the water won't get to it in a thousand years.
 
I started a related discussion on Misc Disc a little while ago. This is a good example of short sightedness.

Especially given this:

 
I started a related discussion on Misc Disc a little while ago. This is a good example of short sightedness.

Especially given this:



Hmm... in 1958 it was only one hypothesis among others. It was that until the 2001 IPCC report, that it was settled. Just because somebody makes an early prediction that turns out true, doesn't mean they knew what they were talking about when they made the prediction.

I'd say it looks something like this:

Antropocentric Global warming theory

1950 = weak
1980 = probable
1990 = strong
2001 = debate settled
 
Erosion of concrete by water is a very complex phenomenon, and most Manhattan skyscrapers use steel girders as their structural frame, not concrete, so it is very difficult to say what a flooded Manhattan in 2140 might look like - how loing has it been flooded for at that time? What efforts were made to protect either steel, or concrete, or both, prior to inundation? How fast are typical currents flowing around the buildings (these tend to be much faster near square corners)? How much abrasive debris is suspended in the water?

I would guess that the steel frames of a typical Manhattan skyscraper would last quite well in salt water at least for a century or so, as they are typically well protected against corrosion, and have a significant safety factor in their design - it wasn't until the 1970s that CAD and a better understanding if materials combined to allow less robust skyscraper designs (such as the WTC towers, which were revolutionary in their minimal use of structural elements, maximizing usable floor space, particularly on the lower levels). The Empire State Building is structurally far stronger, as beam strengths and loadings were less well understood in the 1920s and '30s, so architects put in more structure than was (we now understand) needed; the lower floors (particularly the basement levels) of such buildings have significant areas devoted to columns that hold up the building, leading to a 'cluttered' feel and less usable floor space.

A lot depends on the loads applied to these buildings too - if there was, for example, a sea defence wall or walls built in an attempt to prevent inundation, these structures could significantly reduce the tidal currents in many places; As could debris blocking the streets - reefs of car bodies would likely exist, and could give a lot of protection to the buildings (particularly if deliberately and carefully placed).

I can't see that the continued availability of these buildings after flooding by the ocean would necessarily be a silly idea, certainly not as early as the 2140's; And concrete being damaged by salt water is the least of the issues that would face these structures, not least because they don't have concrete as a major structural component. Most skyscrapers in Manhattan are steel frames, built as a cage surrounding a central shaft (used for elevators and services), with concrete floors poured into steel pans to make each floor level, and either steel or (in more modern or refurbished buildings) aluminium frames holding glass panel curtain walls; or concrete and masonry curtain walls - as the name implies, curtain walls are non-structural and 'hang' from the support structure of the floor edges. Steel framed, light concrete, or masonry curtain walls near and below the waterline would likely be gone in fairly short order (a decade or two at most), but this would only effect the structure of the building in terms of allowing water currents to flow more rapidly around the structural elements.

The existence of steel ships and steel bridges is good evidence that salt-water exposure need not lead to rapid deterioration of large steel beams, particularly if ongoing efforts are made to protect and/or repair them. If completely abandoned and left without any maintenance, then several decades of salt water exposure would likely be needed before any of the buildings collapsed, and most would, I guess, survive rather longer; The really important factor would probably be wave action during storms, so a lot depends on the frequency and severity of such storms. Certainly it is storm activity that is the main driver of general coastal erosion, and man-made structures are not really importantly different from natural seafronts in that respect - in the absence of a sea wall or walls to break up storm driven waves, your buildings will likely fall down because those waves hurl debris against them like a wrecking ball, long before corrosion of the steel elements (whether structural girders of concrete reinforcement) becomes a significant factor.

After a fairly short period of inundation there would likely be sufficient damage that no current structural engineer would sign off on the safety of the buildings; but modern engineers work in a highly risk-averse environment. If a building will probably not fall down this decade, you might well choose to live in it (particularly if no alternatives are readily available) - despite the fact that a 21st century engineer would immediately condemn such a structure.
 
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Also worth mentioning is that there are concrete piers in the Mediterranean that were built by the Romans two thousand years ago, and that are still structurally sound - Concrete without internal steel reinforcement is no less good at withstanding seawater erosion than most rocks, and in favourable conditions can last a very long time indeed.

https://phys.org/news/2017-07-ancient-concrete-romans.html

Modern concretes vary in formulation, and despite the disparaging remarks about portland cement based concretes in that article, are in many cases even more durable in salt water conditions than opus caementicium, and dramatically better than the other common Roman concrete, Opus signinum, which used terracotta aggregate.
 
It depends on the detailing and the mix. Concrete pylons for bridges and such are designed for those kind of conditions. The foundations of a building built on land would not be. Exposing anything to any conditions it wasn't designed to withstand will cause problems.

Venice is actually built on wood piles. The stone buildings are built upon them. A tar coating, the choice of wood, the constant wetness and anaerobic conditions keep the piles from rotting.
 
It depends on the detailing and the mix. Concrete pylons for bridges and such are designed for those kind of conditions. The foundations of a building built on land would not be. Exposing anything to any conditions it wasn't designed to withstand will cause problems.

Venice is actually built on wood piles. The stone buildings are built upon them. A tar coating, the choice of wood, the constant wetness and anaerobic conditions keep the piles from rotting.

Cool. I've always wondered how that works. The old town in Stockholm is also built on wood, and I've never understood until now how that would work. Thanks.
 
Rot is worst when the wood is repeatedly soaked and then allowed to dry. Constantly wet wood lasts longer.
 
Both the Romans and earlier Greeks developed water proof concrete. I think it has something to do with the aggregates used.
 
Erosion of concrete by water is a very complex phenomenon, and most Manhattan skyscrapers use steel girders as their structural frame, not concrete, so it is very difficult to say what a flooded Manhattan in 2140 might look like - how loing has it been flooded for at that time? What efforts were made to protect either steel, or concrete, or both, prior to inundation? How fast are typical currents flowing around the buildings (these tend to be much faster near square corners)? How much abrasive debris is suspended in the water?

I would guess that the steel frames of a typical Manhattan skyscraper would last quite well in salt water at least for a century or so, as they are typically well protected against corrosion, and have a significant safety factor in their design - it wasn't until the 1970s that CAD and a better understanding if materials combined to allow less robust skyscraper designs (such as the WTC towers, which were revolutionary in their minimal use of structural elements, maximizing usable floor space, particularly on the lower levels). The Empire State Building is structurally far stronger, as beam strengths and loadings were less well understood in the 1920s and '30s, so architects put in more structure than was (we now understand) needed; the lower floors (particularly the basement levels) of such buildings have significant areas devoted to columns that hold up the building, leading to a 'cluttered' feel and less usable floor space.
Just to clear up confusion, structural analysis was very well understood when the Empire State Building was designed (by engineers). The trouble was the time needed to calculate everything, hence the redundancy.

A lot depends on the loads applied to these buildings too - if there was, for example, a sea defence wall or walls built in an attempt to prevent inundation, these structures could significantly reduce the tidal currents in many places; As could debris blocking the streets - reefs of car bodies would likely exist, and could give a lot of protection to the buildings (particularly if deliberately and carefully placed).
I can't imagine water loads bearing much into the equation. Skyscrapers have two main loads, the weight / live load and then the wind, which increases exponentially. Additionally, the bottom of the structure is the most robust.

I can't see that the continued availability of these buildings after flooding by the ocean would necessarily be a silly idea, certainly not as early as the 2140's; And concrete being damaged by salt water is the least of the issues that would face these structures, not least because they don't have concrete as a major structural component. Most skyscrapers in Manhattan are steel frames, built as a cage surrounding a central shaft (used for elevators and services), with concrete floors poured into steel pans to make each floor level, and either steel or (in more modern or refurbished buildings) aluminium frames holding glass panel curtain walls; or concrete and masonry curtain walls - as the name implies, curtain walls are non-structural and 'hang' from the support structure of the floor edges. Steel framed, light concrete, or masonry curtain walls near and below the waterline would likely be gone in fairly short order (a decade or two at most), but this would only effect the structure of the building in terms of allowing water currents to flow more rapidly around the structural elements.
Bridge decks have issues with corrosion because they are outdoors and have to deal with lots of environmental stresses. The interior of the structure, I wouldn't assume would have as big an issue, unless the water inside froze, which then could create problems, if any concrete columns were exposed to the water.

- - - Updated - - -

Both the Romans and earlier Greeks developed water proof concrete. I think it has something to do with the aggregates used.
Waterproofing doesn't exist if something is fractured.

- - - Updated - - -

Rot is worst when the wood is repeatedly soaked and then allowed to dry. Constantly wet wood lasts longer.
Yes! The last thing you ever want to do is expose submerged wood piling to the air!
 
I'm reading Kim Stanley Robinson's New York 2140. It's about the effects of global warming. New York had become a kind of Venice with the streets flooded. Just one problem. Venice is built on stone foundations. It was built on the sea from the beginning. New York... not so much. Wouldn't the skyscrapers rapidly erode and collapse?

I tried looking it up and calculating. I didn't find a good answer. Do you guys know?

On the topic. Does anybody know about a good science fiction book about the effects of global warming? This one is alright. But it's only about a two year period. I'd like one that has a more general take on it. Yes, I'm aware science doesn't really know. But science fiction authors are allowed to guess about the stuff they don't know.

The buildings of New York are built on the bedrock that created Manhattan. The buildings of Venice are built on the hard sand of the lagoon. Both methods have advantages and limitations.

Concrete does not erode any faster than rock, but this depends on the chemistry of the concrete. Manhattan is a big hill that rises out of the water. The highest point is 80 meters above current sea level, and a lot of the island is more than 15 meters. The majority of the streets will be dry, but the subways won't be of much use.

If you want to look at a large city in real danger of sea level rise, look at Houston, Venice of the South.
 
I'm reading Kim Stanley Robinson's New York 2140. It's about the effects of global warming. New York had become a kind of Venice with the streets flooded. Just one problem. Venice is built on stone foundations. It was built on the sea from the beginning. New York... not so much. Wouldn't the skyscrapers rapidly erode and collapse?

I tried looking it up and calculating. I didn't find a good answer. Do you guys know?

On the topic. Does anybody know about a good science fiction book about the effects of global warming? This one is alright. But it's only about a two year period. I'd like one that has a more general take on it. Yes, I'm aware science doesn't really know. But science fiction authors are allowed to guess about the stuff they don't know.

The buildings of New York are built on the bedrock that created Manhattan.
Yes and no. Plenty of NYC is founded on bedrock that is 60+ feet below the ground surface in areas of man-made land. This isn't the question though. The question is, would exposure of concrete columns to salt water create support issues for the buildings if ocean water flooded the city.
 
If you take a close look at the NY skyline, you can see where the granite is: that's where all the tallest buildings are. Of course, there are a few exceptions, like the World Trade Center complex, which is mostly built on fill, but this was given to us as an example of how the natural world impacts the built environment.
 
I'm reading Kim Stanley Robinson's New York 2140. It's about the effects of global warming. New York had become a kind of Venice with the streets flooded. Just one problem. Venice is built on stone foundations. It was built on the sea from the beginning. New York... not so much. Wouldn't the skyscrapers rapidly erode and collapse?

I tried looking it up and calculating. I didn't find a good answer. Do you guys know?

On the topic. Does anybody know about a good science fiction book about the effects of global warming? This one is alright. But it's only about a two year period. I'd like one that has a more general take on it. Yes, I'm aware science doesn't really know. But science fiction authors are allowed to guess about the stuff they don't know.

The buildings of New York are built on the bedrock that created Manhattan.
Yes and no. Plenty of NYC is founded on bedrock that is 60+ feet below the ground surface in areas of man-made land. This isn't the question though. The question is, would exposure of concrete columns to salt water create support issues for the buildings if ocean water flooded the city.

If anyone is starting a pool, I'll take any number over 700 years.
 
The water would likely render the buildings uninhabitable for dampness and mold long before they would fall down.
 
The water would likely render the buildings uninhabitable for dampness and mold long before they would fall down.

Would it be different than that of people living on boats or on rafts. There's loads of people who do that. They seem to cope somehow?
 
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