"Don't ever take a fence down until you know the reason it was put up." - GK Chesterton

[Trausti]

"Don't ever take a fence down until you know the reason it was put up."

And when you find out it was put up due to unconstrained bigotry and xenophobia... then what? OK to take it down?

And when it is put up to protect people from outsiders who want to hurt them? Okay to take it down? It seems in our current client the left has nothing but scorn for the fellow Americans and are starry eyed for the foreigner whose intentions they do not know.

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MS-13 is ‘taking over the school,’ one teen warned before she was killed



"Refugees bring their problems with them" - Black Panther



There are videos on the internet of how Central American gangs deal with rivals - including use of machetes. They make ISIS seem like humanitarians. But why would we want that shit here? These girls' deaths were 100% preventable.

So, a fence is gonna keep MS-13 out? What if it just keeps them in?

Not really a difficult metaphor. Everyone else seemed to understand it.

 

[Trausti]

Question:

Are you asking out of genuine curiosity or because you don't think I can give you an answer?

He apparently isn't aware of American interference in Central America... or specifically, in this case, the Salvadoran Civil War.

What, that conflict that ended more than 26 years ago? Like, nothing has happened in El Salvador since then? Blame America first, got it.

 

[Valjean]

Question:

Are you asking out of genuine curiosity or because you don't think I can give you an answer?

He apparently isn't aware of American interference in Central America... or specifically, in this case, the Salvadoran Civil War.

What, that conflict that ended more than 26 years ago? Like, nothing has happened in El Salvador since then? Blame America first, got it.

Consequences create consequences, create unintended consequences, create blowback.
Puppet states create dictatorships, create rebellions, create war, creates refugees, creates foreign ghettos, create nativism, creates street gangs, create deported street gangs that overwhelm the destabilized native societies.

 

[LordKiran]

What, that conflict that ended more than 26 years ago? Like, nothing has happened in El Salvador since then? Blame America first, got it.

Consequences create consequences, create unintended consequences, create blowback.
Puppet states create dictatorships, create rebellions, create war, creates refugees, creates foreign ghettos, create nativism, creates street gangs, create deported street gangs that overwhelm the destabilized native societies.

I'm sorry but is Trausti's point of contention that our initial involvement was a long time ago (26 years is NOT a long time ago btw, the Spanish Inquisition was a long time ago) and therefor has no bearing on the present?

 

[Patooka]

I'm sorry but is Trausti's point of contention that our initial involvement was a long time ago (26 years is NOT a long time ago btw, the Spanish Inquisition was a long time ago) and therefor has no bearing on the present?

My interpretation is Trausti believes MS-13 is a dangerous threat and should be sent beck to where it came from, which is LA in the 1980s

 

[Derec]

He apparently isn't aware of American interference in Central America... or specifically, in this case, the Salvadoran Civil War.

The US involvement in the civil war was minor and in any case the war was not caused by the US. Salvadorans managed that on their own.

And that war ended more than 25 years ago - how is it still relevant to use that war to accept "refugees" in 2014 until today?

In any case, none of it justifies not deporting "refugees" who are involved in gang violence. Or just taking people who claim to be "refugees" (even though there is no war on) without vetting them for gang membership.

And you can't have it both ways. You can't claim that situation in El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras is so bad that we must accept 100s of thousands of illegal migrants, but at the same time dismiss the gang violence as not a big deal when these migrants recreate the conditions from their home countries in US towns and neighborhoods.

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My interpretation is Trausti believes MS-13 is a dangerous threat and should be sent beck to where it came from, which is LA in the 1980s

The bangers who started MS-13 are from El Salvador and should have been deported there. Our mistake was to let their proteges in as "unaccompanied minors".

 

[Derec]

I don't think he asks questions to lead to an answer. Rather, he asks questions to create barriers between himself and 'admitting defeat.' I say this because it's in line with our past interactions and a common tactic he employs.

Bullshit Kirian! I merely reject the Left article of faith that blames anything bad that is happening in Latin America on evil, white, capitalist Americans. Completely ignoring that Cuba is LA's longest running dictatorship and that the biggest current basketcase in LA is socialist Venezuela.

 

[LordKiran]

I don't think he asks questions to lead to an answer. Rather, he asks questions to create barriers between himself and 'admitting defeat.' I say this because it's in line with our past interactions and a common tactic he employs.

Bullshit Kirian! I merely reject the Left article of faith that blames anything bad that is happening in Latin America on evil, white, capitalist Americans. Completely ignoring that Cuba is LA's longest running dictatorship and that the biggest current basketcase in LA is socialist Venezuela.

You don't merely do anything. Your incredulity is based on the idea that the inciting action was decades ago and because it was decades ago it can't have any effects on us living today. That's such an ignorant way of thinking that it makes you sound like a small child with no concept of time beyond your short lifespan thus far.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Bullshit Kirian! I merely reject the Left article of faith that blames anything bad that is happening in Latin America on evil, white, capitalist Americans. Completely ignoring that Cuba is LA's longest running dictatorship and that the biggest current basketcase in LA is socialist Venezuela.

Must be why those that fought in the Salvadoran Civil War against the Government have been in and out of power peacefully since the end of the war in the early 90s.

 

[coloradoatheist]

I don't think he asks questions to lead to an answer. Rather, he asks questions to create barriers between himself and 'admitting defeat.' I say this because it's in line with our past interactions and a common tactic he employs.

Bullshit Kirian! I merely reject the Left article of faith that blames anything bad that is happening in Latin America on evil, white, capitalist Americans. Completely ignoring that Cuba is LA's longest running dictatorship and that the biggest current basketcase in LA is socialist Venezuela.

You don't merely do anything. Your incredulity is based on the idea that the inciting action was decades ago and because it was decades ago it can't have any effects on us living today. That's such an ignorant way of thinking that it makes you sound like a small child with no concept of time beyond your short lifespan thus far.

Of course it has affects on it, but so does the Spanish conquest of the area compared to being conquered by France or England. The US didn't go into a paradise of El Salvador and decide hey this place is too nice, let's screw with it. The took a side in a screwed up place trying to make it better long term. That doesn't excuse the behavior of these gangs.

 

[SimpleDon]

I don't believe that there is anything but complaining in this thread. There don't seem to be any solutions offered.

We had the Bush II administration who unintentionally not only reduced the flow but actually reversed the flow of illegals by failing to enforce regulation on the banks resulting in the near destruction of the world's economy. The lack of economic activity didn't support as many illegal workers as before.

Then we had the Obama administration who were concentrating on deporting violent criminals leaving the vast majority of illegals who are law-abiding alone, to avoid the economic disruption and the impact of splitting families apart that would accompany such an action.

These were unacceptable to the xenophobes.

So now we have an entire government elected on a xenophobic platform of throwing out all of the illegals justified by conflating a one time commission of a class 3 misdemeanor, (roughly as serious a crime as a parking ticket), with a lifetime of criminality, and instituting "extreme vetting" for humanitarian refugees, ending the entry of Muslims until "figure out what is going on" which they haven't been able to do so far, and building a 30 billion dollar wall to marginally reduce the way that less than fifty percent of the illegals now enter the country.

And here are our xenophobes complaining about our current government and their immigration policies. That we are spending thirty billion dollars for a metaphor. That "extreme vetting" isn't extreme enough. That it isn't enough to start to throw out all of the illegals, a process that would take decades, we should return to concentrating on throwing out the violent criminals.

What are we who aren't xenophobic to understand from this thread? I have a suggestion.

Obviously, the US needs more people to work in our economy. Economists would say that we have a demand for more workers in our economy. There is always a demand for workers who accept low wages and who are willing to work in dirty and dangerous jobs, but I think that there is more than that now. The baby boomers are retiring now, in fact, more people are retiring than are entering employment.

The problem with the illegal immigrants isn't that they are stealing jobs that Americans want, it isn't that they are not white, it isn't that they commit more crimes than the native population, they don't, it is that they work off of the books for low wages that undercut the wages of native workers.

The obvious thing to do is to make the illegals legal, to increase the number of legal immigrants we let in from bordering countries and that we promote our global trade with our bordering economies rather than with overseas countries. This will boost the economies of Mexico and Canada providing more jobs and reducing the pressure to immigrate illegally.

 

[bilby]

"Don't ever put a wall up until you understand the reasons why there wasn't one there to begin with." - bilby.