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Eating animals that can display affection?

I think Douglas Adams had to solution to this in his "Restaurant at the end of the universe". We need to breed an animal that actually wants to be eaten and is capable of saying so clearly and distinctly.

https://news.slashdot.org/story/18/...t-processor-invests-in-lab-grown-meat-startup

Tyson Foods, the world's second largest processor and marketer of chicken, beef, and pork, announced it has invested in Silicon Valley startup Memphis Meats, a company that makes lab-grown meat using animal cells. The investment amount was not disclosed, but it follows a slew of other high-profile backers including Cargill Inc., Bill Gates and Richard Branson.
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Finally, you will be able to eat a kittenburger without the guilt.
 
It seems what you are calling "natural empathy" is a learned behavior, not an actual natural trait. I don't think you were born empathetic and certainly for the first couple years, had no empathy at all for the people around you.

It does not have to be learned.

It can be tested and empathy emerges in humans almost universally. If they have not been abused in some way.

The question is: What does the human do with their empathy? Allow it to grow and guide behavior? Or kill it? A human can do either or something in between. I believe the will plays a part in how moral we behave. And if empathy is not our guide strange codes of morality can emerge. A person could beat up a homosexual and believe they are behaving morally. They used to lynch black people for disobeying moral codes like the prohibition of race mixing. And they felt very moral in doing so. Because they had a code and were not guided by normal human empathy.

Humans that are abused are all special psychological cases so I do not include them in "normal". Their development has been altered. Both Stalin and Hitler suffered severe physical abuse as children.

I will repeat again, you have no understanding of morality, or the origin of moral codes. I'll add, in place of any understanding, you have substituted a hodgepodge of pop psychology and anecdotes.

On one hand, you say empathy is natural and emerges in people, but a lack of empathy can be learned by poor treatment. So, while empathy does not need to be learned, being abused can inhibit the natural process by which it develops.

On top if this, you display a distinct inability to understand the moral context of societies which differ from yourself. This is a lack of empathy in you.

Myself, being a very empathetic person who understands morality and its functions in human society, I do understand why you continue.
 
It seems what you are calling "natural empathy" is a learned behavior, not an actual natural trait. I don't think you were born empathetic and certainly for the first couple years, had no empathy at all for the people around you.

It does not have to be learned.

It can be tested and empathy emerges in humans almost universally. If they have not been abused in some way.

The question is: What does the human do with their empathy? Allow it to grow and guide behavior? Or kill it? A human can do either or something in between. I believe the will plays a part in how moral we behave. And if empathy is not our guide strange codes of morality can emerge. A person could beat up a homosexual and believe they are behaving morally. They used to lynch black people for disobeying moral codes like the prohibition of race mixing. And they felt very moral in doing so. Because they had a code and were not guided by normal human empathy.

Humans that are abused are all special psychological cases so I do not include them in "normal". Their development has been altered. Both Stalin and Hitler suffered severe physical abuse as children.

I will repeat again, you have no understanding of morality, or the origin of moral codes. I'll add, in place of any understanding, you have substituted a hodgepodge of pop psychology and anecdotes.

On one hand, you say empathy is natural and emerges in people, but a lack of empathy can be learned by poor treatment. So, while empathy does not need to be learned, being abused can inhibit the natural process by which it develops.

On top if this, you display a distinct inability to understand the moral context of societies which differ from yourself. This is a lack of empathy in you.

Myself, being a very empathetic person who understands morality and its functions in human society, I do understand why you continue.

A person that has been abused has all kinds of emotional problems.

Almost all people who were not abused will feel empathy at the sight of an animal being harmed.

If you have no empathy that is not my issue.

It is there. You may have killed it.
 
I will repeat again, you have no understanding of morality, or the origin of moral codes. I'll add, in place of any understanding, you have substituted a hodgepodge of pop psychology and anecdotes.

On one hand, you say empathy is natural and emerges in people, but a lack of empathy can be learned by poor treatment. So, while empathy does not need to be learned, being abused can inhibit the natural process by which it develops.

On top if this, you display a distinct inability to understand the moral context of societies which differ from yourself. This is a lack of empathy in you.

Myself, being a very empathetic person who understands morality and its functions in human society, I do understand why you continue.

A person that has been abused has all kinds of emotional problems.

Almost all people who were not abused will feel empathy at the sight of an animal being harmed.

If you have no empathy that is not my issue.

It is there. You may have killed it.

I do understand how you feel and why you feel this way*. I don't agree with what you think is true, but since it has no effect on my life, there's no threat to me, or anyone I care about. It's not my job to make you a better person, so my efforts are strictly out of altruism.


*
em·pa·thy ˈempəTHē
noun:
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
 
I do understand how you feel and why you feel this way*. I don't agree with what you think is true, but since it has no effect on my life, there's no threat to me, or anyone I care about. It's not my job to make you a better person, so my efforts are strictly out of altruism.


*
em·pa·thy ˈempəTHē
noun:
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

How do you know when something is immoral?
 
[1]It is almost invariably false to describe any behaviour as unique to humans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_suicide
In light of this, some would argue that because we are better than them we are right to consume them or at the very least are not wrong for doing so. I disagree at least to a certain extent. Right and wrong have nothing to do with it to my mind. It has more to do with practicing what you want to be.

IF: you desire to be a 'good' person with compassion, empathy, patience, love, understanding ect.

THEN: You must practice those things. Humanbeings are not anymore good than they are evil, because humans are fluid. We can't ever be those things because the capacity for both is inherent to us, we can only practice them. People cannot be compassionate or empathetic. They can practice compassion and empathy though. Ultimately it is as Jungian psychology suggests. We believe what we act as. The human being's desire to be consistent and not suffer the great dissonance that comes with believing and acting in two different fashions is among your strongest of impulses. Nobody wants to live a lie.
[2]I would say that the existence of religion is just one of the more obvious refutations to this claim. The evidence is very strong that almost everybody strives to live a lie.

People have a self image that most are unable to live up to; and they resolve this by lying - to themselves and to others - pretty much constantly.
So all of this is to say:

1. You can only be as "good" as you consistently practice "good" things
2. Arguments that "Good" practices should be reserved for humans is an argument who's logical impetus comes from it being the natural prioritization
3. This natural prioritization is rendered moot by human's capacity for higher reasoning and the ability to override his natural impulses.

[3]Your premise that there is a universally agreed meaning to the word 'good' is deeply flawed, rendering your argument moot. Human are not in the least consistent; Nor do they prioritize other humans over non-human entities.

'Good' means looking out for your friends' interests. How we define and rank our friends is the main determinant of what therefore constitutes 'good' behaviour. If you own a pet dog, you are likely to embrace dogs as friends, and to be repulsed by those who see them as food.

If you are a member of a cannibal tribe, you regard humans form other tribes as 'not friends', and therefore as a viable food source. If you were a Roman citizen in the third century CE, You might afford 'friend' status to all other citizens, while considering slaves and the unconquered tribes outside the Empire as subhuman, and fair game for enslaving or killing for entertainment. If you were a Spanish Inquisitor, you would afford 'friend' status only to devout Catholics, and consider heresy to render a person unworthy of personhood - to the extent that it becomes the act of a good and noble person to torture them into recanting their heresies.

Empathy is the way we react to the people (and other living beings) that we choose to include in our tribe. Humans are good at inclusivity - people can be moved to tears by the death of a houseplant. They are also good at exclusivity; The same man who cries when his petunias die, can be perfectly happy working as a guard at a death camp.

Even inanimate objects can be accepted by humans as part of 'us', while most humans remain 'them'; If you scratch someone's car, they may well act to protect it as though it were their child that you were harming, and many would see nothing inconsistent in wanting to cause you serious injury in retaliation.

1. Let me clarify. I suppose under strict definition ants exploding to kill/deter invaders counts as suicide but what I am speaking to is decidedly unnatural behavior. An ant exploding to deter predators is part and parcel of that ant's natural life cycle. Sort of like when certain species die in reproduction. What I refer to is when a species goes against its explicit natural inclinations to kill itself for seemingly no material reason. The wiki article you linked to does seem to show a few rare examples of a dog and duck doing this, but this behaviors can't definitely be referred to as suicidal, for all we know it could be some form of anomalous behavior we simply have yet to successfully understand. Even the article suggests this stating that is uncertain if animals are actually capable of consciously ending their own existence.

2. Oh I doubt the existence of religion from the perspective of the believer is necessarily so cynical as to be a direct lie. I'd call it many things, but I don't think to say that your common believer is knowingly believing in something they don't 'really' believe in is fair. I am certain that there are plenty of people who do as you say, but nobody wants to be that way. I don't think anybody consciously goes out of their way to be full of shit.

3. Again I must clarify. I used "Good" to be a sort of meta-stand in for the general concept of 'being/doing good' its not the most precise way to go about things but I'd like to think we all have a more-or-less similar conception of what "Good" means regardless of whatever negligible particulars that might separate us such that referring to someone as "Behaving as a good person" gets the rough idea and broad moral inclinations to most everyone who would read it. Really, what "Good" actually means isn't really the main thrust of my point there anyway.
 
I agree with what you say.

But we have natural empathy to guide us to be "good". It is the thing we have to tell us if we are harming someone. We hear the cries of people harmed and have a natural emotional reaction to it. Unless we suppress the reaction.

We should try to create a society based around empathy and solidarity instead of around personal accumulation and top down hierarchies.

- - - Updated - - -

OK. When you find one to help you out, I will be happy to read the support for your statement:



Cute how you tried to pivot to what humans feel when challenged about what you say animals feel, and then complain that it is obvious what humans feel so you shouldn't have to provide any source... and by "cute" I mean "dishonest".

I didn't pivot anywhere.

I made a statement and backed it up. Animals are confined to the point they cannot move. Their illnesses and injuries are ignored. They get no mental stimulation. They are tortured.

Ignoring what I said completely is foolishness.

What is your point in doing it?

My point is that you are confusing sentient humans that have complex thoughts and feelings with non-sentient entities that cannot reflect upon their circumstances, create a fictional scenario in their minds where they are in a different situation than they currently are, long for a time in the past or imagined future where their state is different...or do any of the things that are required for anything to be "torture".

If your hyperbolae was dropped and you simply state that you personally find it distasteful that humans treat animals (ANIMALS - not other humans - like you are conflating) with less empathy than with their own species, then there would be little to disagree with you about... empathy is good... even if misplaced (anthropomorphized).

One could challenge your presumed moral high ground with the question, "where do you draw the line"?

Poor chickens, but fuck the pigeons?
Save the dolphins but fuck those dangerous sharks?
bring home, feed, and shelter a dog, but if a mouse gets in, kill it with a glue trap?
how do you walk anywhere knowing you are murdering hundreds of insects as you walk?
how do you bring yourself to bathe, knowing you are committing genocide of billions of bacteria?

Your position is not logically sustainable, in my opinion.
 
Yes, I am. Have been for some time.

Your disregard for the correct use of the English language routinely gets you into pointless discussions that boil down to 'untermensche is misusing a word, and will defend his error to the grave'. It's seriously fucking tiresome.

'Torture' is not applicable in this context. It's cruel; But it's NOT torture. And cruelty to your outgroup is not immoral. (come to that, nor is torture, as the example of the Spanish Inquisition clearly demonstrates).

You claiming that torture must be deliberate and it must be for the intention of getting information is laughable.

Torture is what happens to an animal.

A momentary discomfort is not torture. Discomfort that never ends is.

What is "discomfort" to a farm animal? We all know what is uncomfortable for ourselves... the things you listed previously are good examples. My cat spends about 20 hours a day in the same spot. By choice. It's his spot. He loves being there. He doesn't move around much. He does not seem to be showing signs of experiencing torture (he hasn't demanded to speak to a lawyer or anything).

I have a cucumber in my fridge. When I open the fridge to get something out, I can see the cucumber. It does not bother me at all. I am not tortured by it... or harmed in any way.
If I were to put that cucumber on the floor and call a cat in for dinner, at first glance at the cucumber on the floor the cat would have a heart attack... displaying clear indication of acute terror and panic. Youtube "cat cucumber". It's just mean.

So, different brains, different universe. What does a pig find "uncomfortable" (unendingly - you said), and how do you know?
 
I do understand how you feel and why you feel this way*. I don't agree with what you think is true, but since it has no effect on my life, there's no threat to me, or anyone I care about. It's not my job to make you a better person, so my efforts are strictly out of altruism.


*
em·pa·thy ˈempəTHē
noun:
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

How do you know when something is immoral?

I Google the "thing" + "bible". If there is no mention of the thing in the bible, it is moral. If it is mentioned, then it is immoral.
It is as easy as pi = 3. Since the word "internet" is not in the bible, you can use it to lie and cheat and steal all you want (cause' you want, right?), and it is perfectly moral... cause the book tells me so.
 
Interpreting animal behavior as affection is dubious.

Cats and dogs that go feral revert to genetic programming. Hanan conditioning fades.

A dog may bond with a human as the alpha in the pack. Does not infer feelings. Pets are a dependent relationship that some consider immoral.

There are cultures where pet monkeys and dogs are eaten. Empathy toward animals is cultural. In the west pets are emotional crutches for humans. We spend far more on pets than our homeless, where is morality in that?

I read an essay by Twain,he called The Big Lie.

He is traveling in a city with a wealthy friend in an open carriage. His friend stops the carriage, gets out and walks past destitute people to recuse a stray cat. Selective morality. That is the problem I have with animal rights activists. It is easy to care for animals.
 
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How do you know when something is immoral?

I Google the "thing" + "bible". If there is no mention of the thing in the bible, it is moral. If it is mentioned, then it is immoral.
It is as easy as pi = 3. Since the word "internet" is not in the bible, you can use it to lie and cheat and steal all you want (cause' you want, right?), and it is perfectly moral... cause the book tells me so.

Your answer helps determine how seriously anybody should take your opinions on this matter.

The Bible is a bunch of moral codes. It is belief in things like the Bible that give us the "morality" you espouse. Really your position is more related to humans wanting to control other humans than morality.

This has nothing to do with my position, which is we can sometimes know what is moral and immoral just by using our natural empathy.

If we see an animal tortured and have empathy we know it is immoral.
 
"If I saw a man beating a tied up dog, I couldn't prove it was wrong, but I know it was wrong."
-- Attributed to Mark Twain.
 
There is a custom to give wine or beer or liquor to the turkey before killing the bird for a festivity. The alcohol in the blood of the animal makes the flavor of its meat more tasty.

Uncle Mark is always the right person for this task because Uncle Mark is not an alcoholic but a professional drunk man.

The family saw uncle Mark leaving the house and taking the turkey and a gallon bottle of rum to the barn. As uncle Mark was taking too long, little Stephanie was sent to call him and bring the bird. But uncle Mark refused to open the barn's door.

The men of the family knew how uncle Mark can become after two drinks, so in group they went over there to force the entrance and bring uncle Mark and the turkey.

Using a pry bar the door was opened, and there it was uncle Mark with the animal orbiting its face almost loosing consciousness. When uncle Mark saw them, he immediately embraced the bird with his right arm and with his left hand he threated everybody with a big knife.

-I'm sayingth... hic... no one ofth you will messth with my buddy!...
 
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