elements undiscovered

[BH]

Just curious but are there any elements that have not been actually discovered yet but are predicted to exist by scientists. I am thinking of natural occurring elements maybe that have sunk so far into the Earth we may never get to them, and so forth.

What do you all have to say.

It's New Years Day and had the day off work. I decided to look up each element of the periodic table up over at Wikipedia just to read about them and see what they "look" like. And then the question popped into my head.

 

[fast]

Just curious but are there any elements that have not been actually discovered yet but are predicted to exist by scientists. I am thinking of natural occurring elements maybe that have sunk so far into the Earth we may never get to them, and so forth.

What do you all have to say.

It's New Years Day and had the day off work. I decided to look up each element of the periodic table up over at Wikipedia just to read about them and see what they "look" like. And then the question popped into my head.

From recollection, I do believe there are undiscovered yet predicted to exist elements, but not as far as naturally occurring. Now, if they pull some crap like they did with Pluto whereby an element isn't exactly what we think an element is, then well, who knows what the future holds.

 

[Sarpedon]

All naturally occurring elements have been discovered. Since what distinguishes an element is the number of protons, and the energy it takes to produce an element increases with its mass, we know with certainty that there are no more. We continue to create artificial elements in the laboratory, but they are all short-lived and could not exist in nature.

I've heard it suggested that there could be some stable elements at a much higher mass number than we've been able to produce, or could be produced in nature. What their properties might be like can only be speculated upon.

 

[repoman]

Read this wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_stability

looks like the problem is lack of neutrons for substrate isotopes to get large product isotopes that are also stable.

 

[bilby]

There's no theoretical limit to the number of elements that could possibly occur in nature, for the simple reason that the set of natural numbers is infinite, and an element is a substance with N protons for a given natural number, N.

However we know that there are no stable isotopes of any element N>92 (uranium); and that transuranic elements tend to have lower stability (shorter half-lives) the higher their atomic number becomes. There is a theoretical 'island of stabilty' for some very heavy elements with atomic number around 120, and nucleon number around 300 (³⁰⁰Ubn) but this is only 'stability' relative to their short lived neighbourhood, and implies half lives in the order of hours, rather than fractions of a second.

Very heavy elements might well naturally exist for between a few nanoseconds and (in the island of stability) several days, in the aftermath of a supernova, but they are highly unlikely to survive for long enough to ever be found in nature by humans. We may one day be able to make them in the lab though.

Their properties are fairly predictable; chemically they will behave in accordance with their position on the periodic table. Physically they will decay by alpha emission or by fission. The most unpredictable characteristic is half-life, and there is speculation that elements around number 120 could include isotopes with very long half-lifes. But this is just speculation at this time.

Long-lived very heavy elements (atomic numbers above about 140) are impossible because the Strong force simply doesn't have sufficient range to hold them together against the electromagnetic repulsion of their protons. But they probably exist very briefly in extreme conditions such as supernovae.

 

[skepticalbip]

There is the whole family of anti-elements. We have created antihydrogen and antihelium. The rest of the elements on in the periodic table should also have a theoretical anti-counterpart.

 

[repoman]

So, larger elements have more neutrons which can provide nuclear binding (residual strong force that is exchanged between nucleons) while not having more positive charge and electrical repulsion.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Just curious but are there any elements that have not been actually discovered yet but are predicted to exist by scientists. I am thinking of natural occurring elements maybe that have sunk so far into the Earth we may never get to them, and so forth.

What do you all have to say.

It's New Years Day and had the day off work. I decided to look up each element of the periodic table up over at Wikipedia just to read about them and see what they "look" like. And then the question popped into my head.

No. Elements are determined by their proton count and every number up to the heaviest elements we know is accounted for. The only way there could possibly be undiscovered elements that exist outside an atom smasher is if the predictions for an island of stability prove true and even then I don't think they're expecting to find stuff that's actually stable, just not quite so unstable.

Likewise with undiscovered isotopes. Anything not already found will have an extremely short life and be found only in an atom smasher. Here's a whole chart of what's known:

(Sorry, can't embed it)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_nuclides_(complete)#/media/File:Isotopes_and_half-life.svg

Note how the farther you get from the line of stable isotopes the more unstable they get. Anything beyond the ones shown will have an even shorter life.

 

[BH]

I see. Thank you very much. I know it probably seems silly that I went and looked up every element and read about them on Wikipedia but it was very informative. Do any of you any really good book titles where I might could read up some more?

What amazed me is how so many of them looked like they could pass for the same thing, but could be used for totally different things, and how they would react to different elements or minerals or even water in ways one that looked like another would not.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Just curious but are there any elements that have not been actually discovered yet but are predicted to exist by scientists. I am thinking of natural occurring elements maybe that have sunk so far into the Earth we may never get to them, and so forth.

What do you all have to say.

It's New Years Day and had the day off work. I decided to look up each element of the periodic table up over at Wikipedia just to read about them and see what they "look" like. And then the question popped into my head.

Google technetium

 

[repoman]

Just curious but are there any elements that have not been actually discovered yet but are predicted to exist by scientists. I am thinking of natural occurring elements maybe that have sunk so far into the Earth we may never get to them, and so forth.

What do you all have to say.

It's New Years Day and had the day off work. I decided to look up each element of the periodic table up over at Wikipedia just to read about them and see what they "look" like. And then the question popped into my head.

Google technetium

Funny I googled Technetium a couple hours ago when I first read the OP.

It is actually found one earth, it is just fleetingly rare and most of it we have is artificial.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I thought the thread title said elephants undiscovered and figured that maybe elephants had done something to piss us off and we had made a decision to not acknowledge their existence anymore.

 

[bilby]

I thought the thread title said elephants undiscovered and figured that maybe elephants had done something to piss us off and we had made a decision to not acknowledge their existence anymore.

Those grey fuckers certainly know how to hold a grudge. I don't think they ever forget.

 

[Sarpedon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_stability

Here's a link to the wiki article about the possible high mass stable elements. Apparently, we've been able to put together enough protons, but have been unable to add the sufficient number of neutrons to produce them.

 

[fast]

I thought the thread title said elephants undiscovered and figured that maybe elephants had done something to piss us off and we had made a decision to not acknowledge their existence anymore.

http://cryptoresponse.weebly.com/water-elephant.html

 

[Bomb#20]

Just curious but are there any elements that have not been actually discovered yet but are predicted to exist by scientists. I am thinking of natural occurring elements maybe that have sunk so far into the Earth we may never get to them, and so forth.

What do you all have to say.

It's New Years Day and had the day off work. I decided to look up each element of the periodic table up over at Wikipedia just to read about them and see what they "look" like. And then the question popped into my head.

From recollection, I do believe there are undiscovered yet predicted to exist elements, but not as far as naturally occurring. Now, if they pull some crap like they did with Pluto whereby an element isn't exactly what we think an element is, then well, who knows what the future holds.

Well, what is an element? If we go strictly by the "what distinguishes an element is the number of protons" definition, then yes, there are millions of undiscovered naturally occurring elements remaining, because a neutron star is basically a giant atomic nucleus, and when the core of a star collapses and the electrons merge with the protons to form neutrons, it's a supernova-sized game of musical chairs and there are always going to be a few scattered protons that can't find an electron to merge with. Does that count as Pluto-like crap-pulling? YMMV.

There's no theoretical limit to the number of elements that could possibly occur in nature, for the simple reason that the set of natural numbers is infinite, and an element is a substance with N protons for a given natural number, N.

There is a theoretical limit. Put enough protons together and they will collapse to form a black hole.

 

[fast]

Does that count as Pluto-like crap-pulling?

No, that's crap-pulling but of a different and easily acceptably forgivable kind. I haven't discovered a bottle of 2057 wine, but give me time.

Onto the second issue which isn't crap pulling: there's a difference between squishing a ball and replacing a ball with one that's squished. They may be identical in most every way, save origin.

Because you've optionally chosen to use the term "nature" in its most increased scope of magnificent breadth while the inquisitive speaker was obviously and merely using the term in a more lexically common and constrained way, without extending any intended scientific meaning past our localized planetary area, what you're doing isnt crap-pulling at all ... Just expanding the ball.

The Pluto scandal (on the other hand) was insidious. You, all you did, was message the ball a little bit. For a positive spin, you've shown that there can be undiscovered elements--in nature--one day.

The Pluto hating bastards did something much more sinister. In all appearances, they were merely reclassifying what it means for something to be a planet. But, they did much more; they tried to pawn it off as something it wasn't. You didn't do that. You didn't try to alter any preexisting lexical meanings. There's a slew of definitions on "nature."

Pluto is a planet. Not according to Neil and his buddies, but that doesn't alter the truth. You can squish the ball, and you did. They can squish the ball and they did. You didn't try to pawn off anything on us. They tried to make it sound as if they had control over what it means to say of Pluto as to whether it's a planet even though the only control they have is over whether Pluto is a planet to them.

Oxygen is an element. If those bastards stipulatively redefine what it means to be an element through a scientifically accepted reclassification scheme and announce to the world that to their new way of looking at things, it's no longer an element pursuant and according to their scheme, then fine, but don't tell me oxygen isn't an element, for lexically, it has been and will remain so, just as Pluto still lives on as a planet.

 

[bilby]

From recollection, I do believe there are undiscovered yet predicted to exist elements, but not as far as naturally occurring. Now, if they pull some crap like they did with Pluto whereby an element isn't exactly what we think an element is, then well, who knows what the future holds.

Well, what is an element? If we go strictly by the "what distinguishes an element is the number of protons" definition, then yes, there are millions of undiscovered naturally occurring elements remaining, because a neutron star is basically a giant atomic nucleus, and when the core of a star collapses and the electrons merge with the protons to form neutrons, it's a supernova-sized game of musical chairs and there are always going to be a few scattered protons that can't find an electron to merge with. Does that count as Pluto-like crap-pulling? YMMV.

There's no theoretical limit to the number of elements that could possibly occur in nature, for the simple reason that the set of natural numbers is infinite, and an element is a substance with N protons for a given natural number, N.

There is a theoretical limit. Put enough protons together and they will collapse to form a black hole.

You are right.

Although I guess if we are being picky, it is possible that the heavy nucleus might still be said to exist, albeit inside an event horizon.

I can't be bothered doing the maths, but I suspect the atomic mass of the largest possible non-black hole nucleus is several orders of magnitude more than 100 - that neutron star mentioned above springs to mind.

 

[James Brown]

I see. Thank you very much. I know it probably seems silly that I went and looked up every element and read about them on Wikipedia but it was very informative. Do any of you any really good book titles where I might could read up some more?

Elements: A Visual Exploration of Every Known Atom in the Universe, by Theodore Gray.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

From recollection, I do believe there are undiscovered yet predicted to exist elements, but not as far as naturally occurring. Now, if they pull some crap like they did with Pluto whereby an element isn't exactly what we think an element is, then well, who knows what the future holds.

Well, what is an element? If we go strictly by the "what distinguishes an element is the number of protons" definition, then yes, there are millions of undiscovered naturally occurring elements remaining, because a neutron star is basically a giant atomic nucleus, and when the core of a star collapses and the electrons merge with the protons to form neutrons, it's a supernova-sized game of musical chairs and there are always going to be a few scattered protons that can't find an electron to merge with. Does that count as Pluto-like crap-pulling? YMMV.

No--neutron stars would be element zero.