Elizabeth Warren Speaks Out for Black Lives.

[AthenaAwakened]

Because misfits can't stand living with their own inferiority in everything else, they have to justify their miserable existence by imagining that at least they are morally superior.

I don't think that's it. Rather, they want to pretend their problems are due to misdeeds on the part of others.

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I don't see anyone saying that. If anything, what's going on is a criminal lives don't matter attitude.

And when I see as many outcries for the justification of white collar criminals being shot by the police, I might just buy that. But let's face it, while all criminals are equal, some are more equal than others.

White collar criminals rarely threaten the police. That's almost entirely the realm of violent criminals.

Your quote

If anything, what's going on is a criminal lives don't matter attitude.

But white collar criminals are the well behaved criminals so the police would not be justified in shooting them, is that what you are saying? If so I am not seeing a criminal lives don't matter attitude, which was your claim.

NOW I suppose it is scary criminal lives don't matter.

But wait...
'
What about

Tamir Rice the 12 year old playing in the park with a toy gun? He wasn't a criminal at all
Perhaps John Crawford's crime was buying a BB gun at WalMart?
Jonathan Ferrell and Tanisha McBride must have been guilty of that famous crime of being in an accident and seeking help.

Maybe just being scary is the crime,

Maybe scary lives don't matter.

Gee, what do all these people have in common that might make them scary?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

"The whole notion of "black lives matter" is misguided from the outset."

That single sentence sums up everything you have said, are saying, and will say about black folk.

Thank you for finally just saying it.

The thing is "black lives matter" is based on a fallacy--that the police are singling out black people to kill. it's already been shown that this is false. Thus it is misguided from the start.

I think it is simply reality that black people have reason to trust police less than white people do. Black guys get type cast as thugs, racially profiled I think they call it, so they need to be more careful around police. This is amplified by a resulting culture of thuggery and around and around the cycle goes. Question would be how to break it. Does screaming "Black lives matter" and shooing Bernie Sanders of all people off a stage really accomplish anything useful? I don't think it does. So what exactly can these Black Lives Matter people do to actually make a meaningful difference? You may say it starts within back communities and black people themselves. Athena will never let herself see that, but I agree, something has to be done there. But that isn't it. You refuse to see that something also has to be done on the broader scale, and within the minds of white people and white police and authority figures especially.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

No, what is childish is Athena (and you) taking what I wrote out of context. What part of "Lives should not matter because of membership to a racial or ethnic group but as individuals.", which is the very next sentence that Athena conveniently ignored, is supposed to be racist?

Derec, picture yourself during WWII, and you just found out that somebody formed a "Jewish Lives Matter" campaign in Germany. Are you telling me that you would object to the campaign just because it shouldn't matter that they're Jewish?

The problem is not the Black Lives Matter movement. The problem is the "black lives don't matter" attitude that most people in privileged positions take.

The problem is both. Is it really so hard to be inclusive in your pleas for justice and fairness? What is so wrong with "Black lives matter too" or pointing to the phenomenon of bigotry without ironically pointing fingers at entire groups of people the way some of these social justice warriors do? We have had people on this forum staunchly defend the idea that black people can't be racist. We've had complaints about candy boxes and Disney Princesses too often being white. There is wisdom in picking your battles and focusing your efforts.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

What is so wrong with "Black lives matter too" ...

Oh, so you don't think White Lives Matter, too?? Reverse racialism!

 

[AthenaAwakened]

What is so wrong with "Black lives matter too" ...

Because the worth of black lives is not an addendum, postscript, or afterthought to the worth of white lives.

 

[Sarpedon]

Because for a long time, we have been promising equality, and not delivering it.

To respond to a group's demand for equality with what is essentially an assertion that things are already equal is simply dishonest.

Once things actually are equal, there will be no more need for such rhetoric.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

No Gratitude for Saving Them From Becoming a Lion's Lunch

<snip>

 

[fromderinside]

What is so wrong with "Black lives matter too" ...

Oh, so you don't think White Lives Matter, too?? Reverse racialism!

White. All I can visualize is a blank piece of paper. Well, on the other hand, paper can be recognizably written upon by something black.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

<snip>

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

By Definition, the Power Elite Have the Power to Create and Control Their Own Fake Opposition

As an aside, Warren is just a one trick issue person. All that she cares about financial regulation. Repeal Glass-Segall. She makes some good points. And I'm a banker! But there are so many other issues that are driving this election: foreign policy, immigration, abortion rights, gay rights, tax policy, XM bank, and etc. She just isn't deep enough for me. Sorry for derail.

She's manipulated by the Establishment into bundling tough and effective regulations with all those disgusting New Age issues so that the majority rejects both. Her vote against the Keystone Pipeline is a job-killer; no honest champion of labor would ever desert workers for Trustfundie Treehuggers. More evidence that postmodern Liberals are Right-Wing provocateurs.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Those Who Fantasize About Being the New Wave Are Riding a Tsunami

For 400 years, <snip>.

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, the representative of 1858.

And the faddish 1968 view has continued to be on the cutting edge--of a shredder.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

According to FBI, blacks are twice as likely to kill whites than vice versa. Do white lives matter?

I'll put the response in big font so maybe it will sink in.

When a black man kills a white man, the black man usually goes to jail, due process. When a white man kills a black man, a white man usually goes to jail, due process. When a policeman kills a black man, the policeman rarely even gets put on trial.

That's the problem!

 

[JonA]

"None of us can ignore what is happening in this country. Not when our black friends, family, neighbors literally fear dying in the streets."

At whose hands are they dying?

"... Owning a home won’t stop someone from burning a cross on the front lawn. Admission to a school won’t prevent a beating on the sidewalk outside,"

With what frequency do these events occur?

We must be honest: 50 years after John Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. spoke out, violence against African Americans has not disappeared."

Violence against anyone has not disappeared.

Do you expect a solution that eliminates violence against an entire race of people?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Because for a long time, we have been promising equality, and not delivering it.

To respond to a group's demand for equality with what is essentially an assertion that things are already equal is simply dishonest.

Once things actually are equal, there will be no more need for such rhetoric.

Which doesn't mean there wouldn't be such rhetoric.

Groups very rarely give up when their goals are attained--that would mean the people at the top lose their good positions. They're much better off pretending the issue still exists.

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The operative word is SHOULD. How much have the lives of various racial and ethnic groups ACTUALLY mattered over time in the USA?

For 400 years, <snip>

So you're saying slavery is appropriate?

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For 400 years, <snip>

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, the representative of 1858.

There was already a lot of opposition to slavery back then. I think you need to turn your time machine up.

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According to FBI, blacks are twice as likely to kill whites than vice versa. Do white lives matter?

I'll put the response in big font so maybe it will sink in.

When a black man kills a white man, the black man usually goes to jail, due process. When a white man kills a black man, a white man usually goes to jail, due process. When a policeman kills a black man, the policeman rarely even gets put on trial.

That's the problem!

Reality: Most of the cases that you guys keep screaming about are justified shootings.

Reality: Adjusted for the arrest rate blacks are not shot disproportionately.

 

[Derec]

Was the big font size really necessary?
Let's quiet you down a couple of notches.

When a black man kills a white man, the black man usually goes to jail, due process. When a white man kills a black man, a white man usually goes to jail, due process. When a policeman kills a black man, the policeman rarely even gets put on trial.

Due process doesn't mean there is always a trial. And police officers, by virtue of their job, are going to be much more often in situations where they have to use deadly force than civilians.
Also, there have been questionable cases where cops shot unarmed white people, except I did not see any gas stations burned and looted in their honor.

The reality is that things like police shootings should be investigated individually. And in cases where there was clear evidence that the shooting wasn't justified there have been prosecutions. The cop who killed Walter Scott is being prosecuted, same for the cop who killed Sam Dubose.

Also, and it bears repeating since it has such a hard time sinking in, to "black lives matter" it doesn't matter if the shooting is justified. It doesn't even matter if the suspect was armed. There are still protests. BLM is not very good at separating wheat from chaff. For example:

Oakland: Vigil for robbery suspect shot and killed by police

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What is so wrong with "Black lives matter too" ...

Because the worth of black lives is not an addendum, postscript, or afterthought to the worth of white lives.

"All lives matter" doesn't make blacks an "addendum, postscript or afterthought". What's your problem with it?

 

[Derec]

I think it is simply reality that black people have reason to trust police less than white people do.

If we go by number of killings, they have more reason to trust the police then each other. I think most of the "blacks should not trust the police" is due to prejudice. On the other hand, how can you expect police to trust blacks when they chant to "fry them like bacon"? By the way, that "Marcus Golden" sign - another justified shooting of a thug

Black guys get type cast as thugs, racially profiled I think they call it, so they need to be more careful around police.

I think everybody needs to be careful around police. And if you don't want to be treated like a thug, don't act like a thug. About the worst thing somebody can do - white or black - is to attack police.

This is amplified by a resulting culture of thuggery and around and around the cycle goes.

The culture of thuggery is a choice.

Question would be how to break it. Does screaming "Black lives matter" and shooing Bernie Sanders of all people off a stage really accomplish anything useful? I don't think it does. So what exactly can these Black Lives Matter people do to actually make a meaningful difference? You may say it starts within back communities and black people themselves. Athena will never let herself see that, but I agree, something has to be done there.

I can agree with you here.

But that isn't it. You refuse to see that something also has to be done on the broader scale, and within the minds of white people and white police and authority figures especially.

I do not think there is much they can do. Darren Wilson for example was attacked by a guy who had just robbed a store. Should he have reacted differently, less aggressively, just because the perp was black?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Reality: Adjusted for the arrest rate blacks are not shot disproportionately.

Reality: That Blacks are arrested disproportionately is also a tragedy.

Reality: Normalizing one tragedy with another does not make it less tragic.

 

[Derec]

NOW I suppose it is scary criminal lives don't matter.

About right. An accountant embezzling millions is not a threat. A robber (which implies violence or threat thereof) who stole items of trifling value and then attacks a cop is a threat.

Tamir Rice the 12 year old playing in the park with a toy gun? He wasn't a criminal at all

It was a realistic looking gun (orange tip was removed) and Tamir didn't look much like a 12 year old. He looked more like an adult, with height and weight comparable to that of Z-man.
I agree the police started shooting too soon, but it is silly to say that they should not have perceived the situation as threatening. He looked like a young adult with a gun, not like a preteen with a pellet gun.

Perhaps John Crawford's crime was buying a BB gun at WalMart?

He wasn't buying it, he was just bored. And again the pellet gun was realistic looking. It didn't have an orange tip not because somebody removed it but because the gun in question is powerful enough not to be classified as a toy - it can even be lethal.

But why has the thug Michael Brown become the icon of the BLM movement and not the non-thug John Crawford?

Jonathan Ferrell and Tanisha McBride must have been guilty of that famous crime of being in an accident and seeking help.

Jonathan Ferrell was probably seeking help but he ran at the police officers even though they told him to stop and tried to tase him as well. I think the jurors who voted for the acquittal were in the right on that one.
McBride was drunk as a skunk (i.e. she committed a crime) and did not seek help before help arrived before she wandered off and three hours passed before she got to that guy's house and started banging. In the middle of the night, in Detroit. Unfortunately, the guy got convicted and he wasn't a cop, so I guess she is not a good example for your case anyway.

Maybe scary lives don't matter.

'tis the season for scary.

Gee, what do all these people have in common that might make them scary?

They acted in an aggressive or threatening manner?

 

[Derec]

Reality: That Blacks are arrested disproportionately is also a tragedy.

Should there be a quota? Only 13% of arrests are allowed to be of black people, no matter how many crimes they actually commit?
According to FBI crime data, blacks commit homicides 5x as much as whites. Should the arrests in homicide cases not reflect that?

Reality: Normalizing one tragedy with another does not make it less tragic.

Arrests should be proportionate to crimes committed, not necessarily population numbers.

 

[Derec]

What I showed you was an instance of a group formed to protect the lives and well-being of a specific ethnic group. You seem to think "the notion" of protecting a specific ethnic group is wrong headed. Of course, that is false. Protecting Jews in WWII would have been a very good thing.

And again, your need to use such an extreme case that has no bearing on the US situation shows that you have no point.
Nazi Germany had a policy of exterminating Jews. Police in US sometimes shoot suspects whom they perceive to be a threat. Very different.
Also, Jews weren't at a much bigger risk to be killed by their fellow Jews in acts of random crime than they were by Nazi Germany.

You might disagree with the application of that notion, but the notion itself is fine.

Notion of a just war is also fine for World War II but it would not be fine if say Cuba decided to declare war on US to aid BLM. We were talking about the notion of singling out one ethnic group in the context of contemporary US, not early 1940s Germany.