Enacting Equality - Undoing Racial Injustice

[Loren Pechtel]

If you really wanted to help the poor, simply increase the minimum wage, and decrease out of wedlock babies and drug use. On the reservation, drug use and alcohol has created devastation.

Minimum wage isn't the issue because the big deal is hours worked.

The others--got a magic wand in your pocket?

True. My main point was to point out that releasing all the drug felons isn't going to help the neighborhoods that they return to. Sending drugged out mom or dad back into a house struggling to feed four or five kids isn't going to help anyone. However, clearly the war against illegal drugs hasn't worked either...

Drugged out mom isn't good but not as harmful as drugged out mom committing crimes or turning tricks to feed her habit.

Also, I think making the addictive stuff legal by prescription will help combat the problem--there won't be pushers trying to get new clients. Britain used to do that and it worked very well--almost nobody got hooked in Britain, almost all the addicts were people who got hooked elsewhere.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

clearly the war against illegal drugs hasn't worked either...

And if, as is often suggested, and for which there does seem to be some evidence, the specific drugs that were clamped down on, the way the users were disproportionately targeted, and the severity of the penalties and incarcerations that resulted, were effectively biased against blacks rather than being race-neutral, then that would be a rather large and ugly underlying problem of itself, and one which might have made things worse rather than better overall, because of disproportionate knock-on effects.

This is repeatedly claimed and back in the dawn of the drug war it probably was true. However, the standard example of crack vs cocaine isn't a good example. Yes, it's just two forms of the same drug and it's not that hard to convert cocaine into crack. That doesn't change the fact that crack is far more harmful to society and thus should draw the higher punishment.

1) Crack has a much shorter cycle--a crack user needs their fix more often and the craving is stronger.

2) Crack is a drug of the poor, cocaine is a drug of the rich. The rich generally do not need to commit crimes to get the money (and if they do it's white collar stuff) while the crack user is almost certainly committing violent crime to feed his addiction.

 

[Jarhyn]

clearly the war against illegal drugs hasn't worked either...

And if, as is often suggested, and for which there does seem to be some evidence, the specific drugs that were clamped down on, the way the users were disproportionately targeted, and the severity of the penalties and incarcerations that resulted, were effectively biased against blacks rather than being race-neutral, then that would be a rather large and ugly underlying problem of itself, and one which might have made things worse rather than better overall, because of disproportionate knock-on effects.

This is repeatedly claimed and back in the dawn of the drug war it probably was true. However, the standard example of crack vs cocaine isn't a good example. Yes, it's just two forms of the same drug and it's not that hard to convert cocaine into crack. That doesn't change the fact that crack is far more harmful to society and thus should draw the higher punishment.

1) Crack has a much shorter cycle--a crack user needs their fix more often and the craving is stronger.

2) Crack is a drug of the poor, cocaine is a drug of the rich. The rich generally do not need to commit crimes to get the money (and if they do it's white collar stuff) while the crack user is almost certainly committing violent crime to feed his addiction.

Neither should draw punishment. That's your first mistake.

Both are public health issues, not enforcement issues. They are best resolved by keeping the drug cheap and using the visibility of purchases to target substance use assistance, vocational help, and alternative recreation.

Second, crack is the drug of the poor because of the drug war. We targeted cracked cocaine and created that knock-on effect by jailing the people who used it and made it, firewalling the community from jobs.

If it was sold at the crack-mart for as cheap as it actually is to make (really f'n cheap), plus some tax to maintain social programs based around harm mitigation, users wouldn't have to steal anyway.

 

[ruby sparks]

I think it's a big part of the problem and it's part of why I want to shift the focus from race to circumstances.

I have no problem with you or anyone doing that, in fact it's something I broadly agree with you about, but imo while doing it you largely discount the unfairnesses that are part of the overall picture. And I don't think that's helpful in either analysing the problems or trying to cure them.

Think of it as a sort of potential-trade off. Blacks concede that they need to do more for themselves and you also concede that at the same time they have more of a valid case for complaining.

Complain about actual wrongdoing, don't complain about a supposed overall bias. The latter does far more harm than good because it provides a way out of addressing the internal issues.

Yeah. Only look at the trees and not the wood. Good idea. Surprising that someone who denies racism as much as you do should come up with it.

You know what, I wouldn't even necessarily trust you to recognise an individual act of overt wrongdoing for what it was even if that's what was being complained about. I think you'd very often tend to try to argue beyond reasonable limits that it wasn't what it seemed. I say that because I've seen you do it a lot. For example, I seem to recall something about a black woman who according to you hit a white cop first.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is repeatedly claimed and back in the dawn of the drug war it probably was true. However, the standard example of crack vs cocaine isn't a good example. Yes, it's just two forms of the same drug and it's not that hard to convert cocaine into crack. That doesn't change the fact that crack is far more harmful to society and thus should draw the higher punishment.

1) Crack has a much shorter cycle--a crack user needs their fix more often and the craving is stronger.

2) Crack is a drug of the poor, cocaine is a drug of the rich. The rich generally do not need to commit crimes to get the money (and if they do it's white collar stuff) while the crack user is almost certainly committing violent crime to feed his addiction.

Neither should draw punishment. That's your first mistake.

No--I don't agree with the drug war. I'm talking about why the different penalty--which is independent of whether there should be a penalty in the first place.

 

[Rhea]

I think that black people, their communities and their representatives should accept more of their own responsibility and do more to both acknowledge and address that blacks have not been doing enough to help themselves out of their problems. How much of the issues are due to this I would not like to make a call on, but I do think it would be helpful to include it.

I think it's a big part of the problem and it's part of why I want to shift the focus from race to circumstances.

If you want to shift the conversation away from overcoming racial inequality to “circumstances” then you should do that in a thread that does not stipulate that racial inequality exists.

There are lots of threads that happily go down the derail to “there is no racism and therefore there’s nothing to be done about it.” And you can start yet another one of those on your own. It sounds like you don’t like this topic. It sounds like you shouldn’t post in it.

 

[Rhea]

Complain about actual wrongdoing, don't complain about a supposed overall bias. The latter does far more harm than good because it provides a way out of addressing the internal issues.

This sounds like a great topic for your own thread that doesn’t stipulate for the discussion that racial inequality exists.


There is an interesting conversation to be had about how to deal with racial inequality. You are derailing it.

 

[Rhea]

Those are ideas that will help all poor people, but which parts are there to reduce inequality? If it is worse being poor and black than being poor and white, how has this helped the fact that Black Americans face inequality. Is it enough to say, “you’re still unequal, but you’re better off than you were before; you’re still peddling uphill and someone has put your brakes on, but at least you have a bike now, right?”

I don't see how most of the things that I listed won't help black people more than white people.

[...] So, I'm having a hard time understanding your question. What specific issues that face Black folks do you think I"m missing. My list was something that I thought of off the top of my head. It may not be all inclusive.

It’s a great list to help raise up poor people. Which I’m totally behind. My thought was that they yes, will indeed help black people more than white people since there are more poor black people due to systemic racial inequality. But these ideas will not break down the racial cause of the problem. It’s a treatment, not a cure. Let me make some comments on each one.

I know lots of black people because I live in a Black majority town. Most of them seem happy with their lives. There are plenty of middle class professionals in my neighborhood, including an RN, a teacher, a retired military officer, a police detective and a fire fighter. But, on the other side of town, there are a high percentage of Black folks who live in poverty. There are also a large percentage of white folks who live in poverty who live in the same neighborhoods. That's where mixed race children and relationships are very common. Wouldn't it be best to help all of those in poverty and not just those from one race?

If by helping them out of poverty, we didn’t call it a done deal and let racial inequality just put its thumb right back on the scale, sure. But whites have a bad habit of doing exactly that. Treating the symptom and never addressing the cause. So it comes roaring back.

As far as some other examples of racism, I've read articles by Black physicians that make the claim that they have to deal with "micro aggressions" frequently. That may be true, but I have no idea how we can change individual racism,

Do you disagree that there is systemiic racism? That it is only just one individual at a time? I don’t feel that’s what I see.

Okay, so onto your list in the next post...

 

[Rhea]

1. Increase the minimum wage and then adjust it yearly based on inflation. This will help the black community the most, but poor white folks will also benefit from this.

I agree with this need to help society be more humane. And, by the way, more safe and reliable, without people living on the edge and all the behaviors that go with that. It does not address the inequality that led to so many more black people being in poverty per capita than white people. That inequality that was placed on them will remain. They will continue to be disproportionately the workers on the front line, with the toughest conditions, the least flexibility for family care and therefore the least likely to achieve upward mobility.

They will have a more comfortable bottom of society position, and continue to be stereotyped as deserving of extra scrutiny in jobs and housing. So raining the minimum wage is good for making poverty less risky. But it does not address racial inequality in earning.

2. Provide some form of UHC. It doesn't have to be single payer. There are many ways to provide UHC. We just need to work towards the goal of having all citizens having access to medical care.

Agreed this will help us all. It is more humane and will stabilize society, which helps even the wealthy.

But it does not close the racial health outcome gap. It will not lead to studies of the safety and efficacy of medications for black people, it will not lead to better equality in diagnosing or treating symptoms. It will not change the racially unequal practice of determine white people’s pain is real and black people’s pain is drug-seeking.

3. Teach nutrition in the schools, starting at a very young age. Obesity is a huge problem in poorer communities, especially in areas that are primarily made up of minorities. Perhaps if chidden are taught good basic nutritions and if school lunches are more nutritious, children will establish better eating habits, leading to better health outcomes.

100% for this. It is very important. It will not address, unfortunately, the access to that nutritious food in many black communities.

4.Improve training, salaries and educational requirements for policing and hold police responsible for inappropriate actions.

Agree with this. And this, I think will directly impact racial inequality. Because the things they most need training on are the things that cause racial inequality in the justice system.

5. Provide programs that encourage more minorities to go into teaching and medicine. We need more black medical providers. From what I've read and been told, there are a lot of black men who don't feel comfortable with a white provider. I'm happy to say that there are far more black nurses then there were when I started my own career, but there are still too few black physicians and NPs. Recruit more. Racism is a fairly big problem in health care. Black patients are often treated differently from white patients. That needs to change.

Agreed. And again this is one that I agree will directly impact racial inequality in health outcomes. As well as socio-economic mobility. I believe this needs to reach all the way down to preschool to make and nuture educational enviroments that overcome any socio-economic barriers to provide the opportunity. Until those barriers are gone, the kids need a “pull” to get to even footing.

6. Decriminalize recreational drugs. I read yesterday that about 50% of current inmates are there for drug charges. That's insane. Why are we locking up people for using drugs which are often less harmful than ETOH. While statistically, just as many white people use illegal recreational drugs as black people, black folks are arrested and jailed at a much higher rate than their white peers. The entire prison system needs a drastic overhaul. That is an area where racism is very obvious. If drugs were decriminalized or made legal, this would save a huge amount of public funding, some of which could be used to provide rehab to those who want help, needle exchange programs, safe spaces to use hard core drugs for those who don't feel they can be helped etc.

Agree with this one, too. This is a place where the cause is right there to attack. Unequal policing, unequal sentencing. By eliminating this as a cime, we can make the experience of black people match that of white people (it’s already not really a crime for white people, it’s a “crisis”.)

And, while I totally agree that there is systemic racism in many areas of the US, it helps to also elevate poor white communities. Perhaps I feel that way because I live in city where mixed race relationships and children are extremely common. Lift up those who are in poverty so that poor white folks won't feel neglected. Attacking poverty lifts people of all ethnic backgrounds.

This iis where I was disgreeing. Yes we need to fix poverty, it’s alwayys bad for society. But deciding to focus on that will let us say, “Oh great, we did something, see? Guilt gone. Work stops.” And it risks letting the racial inequlaity rise right back up again. IMHO.

But, one of the best ways to help decrease racism is to encourage people to have integrated schools, work places and neighborhoods. I live in a neighborhood that has become far more integrated over the past few years. I love it. I think it helps white people who may never have had much contact with black people get to know them and understand that we are all human and our cultural differences should be appreciated, not condemned. It also helps black people realize that white people aren't all hateful racists and we welcome diversity into our neighborhoods. Yes. I'm being idealistic, but one needs to be idealistic if we think we can tackle systemic racism.

How do we encourage that? Yes, I’m idealistic, too. This thread could be idealistic, I’m okay with that. good discussions and ideas can come from idealism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Complain about actual wrongdoing, don't complain about a supposed overall bias. The latter does far more harm than good because it provides a way out of addressing the internal issues.

This sounds like a great topic for your own thread that doesn’t stipulate for the discussion that racial inequality exists.


There is an interesting conversation to be had about how to deal with racial inequality. You are derailing it.

The thread is about how to reach equality. We have very different ideas as to how that should be reached--I believe you're heading in the wrong direction and perpetuating the problem rather than addressing it.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Note: This thread is to discuss how equality can be brought to fruition.

THIS THREAD STIPULATES that racial inequality exists and has manifested in financial inequality, inequality of opportunity, inequality in justice, inequality in health.
If you do not stipulate this as true for the sake of this discussion, then go start your own thread about WHETHER racial inequality exists.

This thread STIPULATES that racial financial inequality exists. That racial opportunity inequality exists.


So for all those who wish to discuss mechanisms of change having stipulated that the inequality exists:


What are some methods and acts that can change inequality to equality? How long do they need to come to fruition? What cost needs to be borne to accomplish these things? I am thinking of things like

• Improving educaational equality by providing more resources to low-income schools. Property taxes as school funding is inherently unequal and creates/perpetuates inequality.
• Improving health equality by funding studies into why there are differences in health outcomes, or by funding nutrition education and nutrition availability.

Things llike that. Thoughts?

If we accept your premise, the best plan of action is to remove any barriers to opportunity. But not affirmative action, as that is itself a barrier to opportunity.

Business licensing. Every time I bring this up, someone will say "oh you want the janitor to do brain surgery?" I think for them he did. What I mean is there are plenty of jobs one could do out of their home that are, in fact, forbidden to by onerous business licensing requirements. Uber was great because it provided a work-around for those who have a car and could drive for hire, but don't have a taxi medallion that are deliberately kept in short supply by cities, and by taxicab companies donating to politicians deciding how many medallions there should be. One could also easily cut hair or arrange flowers, or work outside the home mowing lawns and pulling weeds. Now kids can get around the lawn mowing regulations, but if an adult does it he better have a landscaping license. If you want more examples, just go to https://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/

Next up, end the god damn drug war finally. I know people here are generally sympathetic to that point, but never enough to let it actually influence their vote in any primary or general election. If I were to name one current government policy that has the most disparate racist impact, it would be the drug war. Doing this will end a great deal of the police overreach and police brutality problem as well.

You do just those two, and most of the problems that you think are because of racism will go away.


I like the way you phrased your OP, to exclude any evidence against your faith of the pervasiveness of racism. It prevent you from having to examine any evidence to the contrary. Now get back to the Structural/systemic racism poll thread and discuss how my primary fear is about minorities overtaking me.

 

[Jarhyn]

Note: This thread is to discuss how equality can be brought to fruition.

THIS THREAD STIPULATES that racial inequality exists and has manifested in financial inequality, inequality of opportunity, inequality in justice, inequality in health.
If you do not stipulate this as true for the sake of this discussion, then go start your own thread about WHETHER racial inequality exists.

This thread STIPULATES that racial financial inequality exists. That racial opportunity inequality exists.


So for all those who wish to discuss mechanisms of change having stipulated that the inequality exists:


What are some methods and acts that can change inequality to equality? How long do they need to come to fruition? What cost needs to be borne to accomplish these things? I am thinking of things like

• Improving educaational equality by providing more resources to low-income schools. Property taxes as school funding is inherently unequal and creates/perpetuates inequality.
• Improving health equality by funding studies into why there are differences in health outcomes, or by funding nutrition education and nutrition availability.

Things llike that. Thoughts?

If we accept your premise, the best plan of action is to remove any barriers to opportunity. But not affirmative action, as that is itself a barrier to opportunity.

Business licensing. Every time I bring this up, someone will say "oh you want the janitor to do brain surgery?" I think for them he did. What I mean is there are plenty of jobs one could do out of their home that are, in fact, forbidden to by onerous business licensing requirements. Uber was great because it provided a work-around for those who have a car and could drive for hire, but don't have a taxi medallion that are deliberately kept in short supply by cities, and by taxicab companies donating to politicians deciding how many medallions there should be. One could also easily cut hair or arrange flowers, or work outside the home mowing lawns and pulling weeds. Now kids can get around the lawn mowing regulations, but if an adult does it he better have a landscaping license. If you want more examples, just go to https://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/

Next up, end the god damn drug war finally. I know people here are generally sympathetic to that point, but never enough to let it actually influence their vote in any primary or general election. If I were to name one current government policy that has the most disparate racist impact, it would be the drug war. Doing this will end a great deal of the police overreach and police brutality problem as well.

You do just those two, and most of the problems that you think are because of racism will go away.


I like the way you phrased your OP, to exclude any evidence against your faith of the pervasiveness of racism. It prevent you from having to examine any evidence to the contrary. Now get back to the Structural/systemic racism poll thread and discuss how my primary fear is about minorities overtaking me.

I don't think you fear minorities overtaking you. I think you don't see how your own unique situation contributed to success where the vast majority of minority families don't have those considerations to work with. I also suspect that for many, and probably you, it is equal parts "fuck you I got mine", "I suffered, so should you", and subconscious acceptance of the 'laziness' myth.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

What unique situation are you talking about?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Business licensing. Every time I bring this up, someone will say "oh you want the janitor to do brain surgery?" I think for them he did. What I mean is there are plenty of jobs one could do out of their home that are, in fact, forbidden to by onerous business licensing requirements. Uber was great because it provided a work-around for those who have a car and could drive for hire, but don't have a taxi medallion that are deliberately kept in short supply by cities, and by taxicab companies donating to politicians deciding how many medallions there should be. One could also easily cut hair or arrange flowers, or work outside the home mowing lawns and pulling weeds. Now kids can get around the lawn mowing regulations, but if an adult does it he better have a landscaping license. If you want more examples, just go to https://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/

You're grouping two things here, business licenses and licenses to engage in skilled occupations.

Business licenses--I definitely agree, they're to a substantial degree a hidden tax. There is no reason for a business within a business to have more than a very minimal licensing requirement. There's no reason for a mobile business to have to have a license in every jurisdiction in which they might operate (especially when those licenses have additional background check costs) when they're all part of one metropolitan area. There's no reason for crap like what we have here of $100/yr minimum use tax bill.

I do not mind a yearly tax on any place with an operating premises--but it should be based on size, not a flat rate. Business-within-a-business should be maybe $20 as a one-time charge, the license remains valid so long as the outer business license is valid. Likewise, use tax should be maybe $20 as a one-time charge. Mobile businesses should be licensed normally at their home location (but this is not required to be a business location if they are completely mobile--no premises means no premises license) and maybe $20 as a one-time charge for outlying areas except when the outlying area imposes requirements the primary does not--then they can charge normally for that part of it but other outlying areas must also honor this, no duplicated efforts. (You live in A which doesn't need a background check. B and C do--you only have to have one check, not two, you decide which one does it, the other must honor it.)

The other aspect is professional licenses. Some of these are quite bogus but most of the problem comes from licenses being overly broad. To take an example I've seen presented multiple times--you don't need full blown cosmetology training to braid hair. However, the objectors go too far--there's a bunch of the sanitation information that is relevant for hair-braiders. Just being competent at braiding hair isn't enough. What I would like to see is a system where anybody can for a fee challenge any license requirement as overly broad--the board in charge must either show why it needs to be or divide the license up. (Note that this problem exists even in high skill professions. Consider China: "Doctor" and "Surgeon" are related professions but have separate licenses and overlapping but not identical training.)

You do just those two, and most of the problems that you think are because of racism will go away.

I don't think these are enough to get rid of most of the problems but they're a good start.

I would also throw in legalizing prostitution. Deprive the gangs of their main sources of income and you'll take a big bite out of the damage they do.

I like the way you phrased your OP, to exclude any evidence against your faith of the pervasiveness of racism. It prevent you from having to examine any evidence to the contrary. Now get back to the Structural/systemic racism poll thread and discuss how my primary fear is about minorities overtaking me.

On this I disagree--the OP asks about how to obtain equality. There's the assumption the inequality is due to racism but the OP does not claim it is.

 

[Rhea]

If we accept your premise, the best plan of action is to remove any barriers to opportunity.

Agreed. And my point in making the stipulation was to dig deep into what those could be and avoid sweeping them under the rug and just saying “bootstraps” make everyone equal. So, yes. Agreed.

But not affirmative action, as that is itself a barrier to opportunity.

I disagree, but can put that aside for the moment to consider your ideas.

Business licensing. Every time I bring this up, someone will say "oh you want the janitor to do brain surgery?" I think for them he did. What I mean is there are plenty of jobs one could do out of their home that are, in fact, forbidden to by onerous business licensing requirements.

This is a good point and even if business licensing did not disappear, it could be examined for elements that create a bias against the individual entrepreneur. Taxi medallions are a strong example. Hairdressers and home cooks - should there be some level of safety required? Hygeine? But can it be done to expand opportunities and not narrow them? I think so and worth looking.

Next up, end the god damn drug war finally. I know people here are generally sympathetic to that point, but never enough to let it actually influence their vote in any primary or general election. If I were to name one current government policy that has the most disparate racist impact, it would be the drug war. Doing this will end a great deal of the police overreach and police brutality problem as well.

I agree with this. I find this one to be egregiously racist. As well as just all-around bad for society. And we don’t need to wait to vote. Actions can be done to pressure politicians currently in office. One act can be for PACs of like minded people to campaign constantly against this, making the legislator feel the pain of their vote every time it comes up again.

You do just those two, and most of the problems that you think are because of racism will go away.


I like the way you phrased your OP, to exclude any evidence against your faith of the pervasiveness of racism. It prevent you from having to examine any evidence to the contrary.

I phrased my OP that way to get at some new and different discussion that, by the phrasing was kept from being the same old same old. I was interested in a deep dive of specifics and I knew that several people would say there is no inequality, just laziness and inherent violence. And I wanted to leave that same old discussion in other threads and explore something different for once. All of these things exist, but some never get discussed because some people think they are not the main issue so they will derail and avoid talking about it at all and any cost.

Now get back to the Structural/systemic racism poll thread and discuss how my primary fear is about minorities overtaking me.

I will get right on that. I owe you an apology.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is a good point and even if business licensing did not disappear, it could be examined for elements that create a bias against the individual entrepreneur. Taxi medallions are a strong example. Hairdressers and home cooks - should there be some level of safety required? Hygeine? But can it be done to expand opportunities and not narrow them? I think so and worth looking.

I think taxi medallions are about the ultimate example.

I do not think home businesses should have any lesser sanitation standards, though.

I agree with this. I find this one to be egregiously racist. As well as just all-around bad for society. And we don’t need to wait to vote. Actions can be done to pressure politicians currently in office. One act can be for PACs of like minded people to campaign constantly against this, making the legislator feel the pain of their vote every time it comes up again.

I don't believe it currently is racist (originally it was, allowing white-man's drugs but not colored-man's drugs) but it certainly is bad for society and at the heart of an awful lot of our problems. Nuke from orbit, give it a few years and reevaluate what's ailing society.

I phrased my OP that way to get at some new and different discussion that, by the phrasing was kept from being the same old same old. I was interested in a deep dive of specifics and I knew that several people would say there is no inequality, just laziness and inherent violence. And I wanted to leave that same old discussion in other threads and explore something different for once. All of these things exist, but some never get discussed because some people think they are not the main issue so they will derail and avoid talking about it at all and any cost.

While you were looking for different ideas that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

End the war on drugs. Drugs won. Erase nonviolent drug crime records. Enact extremely stringent anti corruption laws. Restructure markets to eliminate short term investments. Tax the fuck out of income over a moderately high level, throw away the cash if we can't agree what to spend it on. Make a guaranteed jobs program administered by the sba. Make various categories of police misconduct felony offenses including falsifying an official report, lying to cover for another cop, planting evidence, unprovoked violence, etc. Tax even more obove the cutoff and if the effect leaves any billionaires because we couldn't figure out how to tax right, guillotine for billionaires. I dunno, those are off the cuff but...

Education matters to but you can't teach some people to think long term until they grow up with enough stability to make long term thinking a reasonable undertaking so that's a generation away at a minimum.

If you really wanted to help the poor, simply increase the minimum wage, and decrease out of wedlock babies and drug use. On the reservation, drug use and alcohol has created devastation.

Restructure markets to eliminate short term investments. What does that mean? How would restructuring markets lead to eliminating short term investments.

A jobs program administrated by the SBA? Why? The SBA is having a hard time today doing their primary job: guarantying loans and subordinate loans. But they are mostly ex-bankers who don't know how to administer jobs.

Guillotine the billionaires. Gotcha. I didn't realize that you weren't being serious.

well, we are describing utopia so I put in there that there are humane ways to limit power but the ends justify the means in a few rare situations, billionaires being one.

Wall street and its foreign counterparts have become little more than an elaborate system of rents on the economies of the world.

Capitalism fails when there are no controls to limit and prevent overaccumulation. We are very close to that point. When money and power flow one way, democracy fails.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

I generally agree with most of the suggestions made. I am going to throw one more in which I do think would also help. I think that black people, their communities and their representatives should accept more of their own responsibility and do more to both acknowledge and address that blacks have not been doing enough to help themselves out of their problems. How much of the issues are due to this I would not like to make a call on, but I do think it would be helpful to include it. I do realise it's already happening, and I seem to recall Obama for instance (and others from the black demographic) saying it a few times, but imo it doesn't get enough of a public airing and is generally de-emphasised. I think all things considered, there is in the current climate a bit too much blaming history, white people, and their racism. I think the above could be a useful part of the mix and it might allow both 'sides', and more moderates, to edge towards a middle and towards more compromise and agreement about things that can be done to improve matters.

In addition to this, the disadvantaged generally, of all backgrounds, could do with realising to a greater extent that they have a lot of very large common causes. And so I think this spirit of cooperation should be encouraged, in the face of what I sometimes think are efforts to divide subsections of them from each other.

I have the feeling that many poor and only moderately well-off white people have been suckered into thinking Trump cares about their best interests, and that one of these is competing with their black and other non-white neighbours and fellow citizens.

The situation in the US is likely different from the UK or where you are. In the US, blacks have been prevented from the rights of citizenship and loaded with the responsibilities. The bootstrap argument fails on its own premises.
A guy named Herbert Gans wrote a paper once titled, the positive functions of the undeserving poor. If you have access, it's highly recommended by me. As is the concept of the surround, a situation with no escape. I'll have to look up the reference

 

[ruby sparks]

A guy named Herbert Gans wrote a paper once titled, the positive functions of the undeserving poor. If you have access, it's highly recommended by me. As is the concept of the surround, a situation with no escape. I'll have to look up the reference

Do. I will also try to find it myself. I have read several other interesting papers on the subject (of the undeserving poor). It's an interesting topic. We have a few posters here who (not unreasonably) say that any special measures to alleviate inequalities, should be socioecomic rather than based on race. But really, how supportive would they actually be if socioeconomic measures were enacted? It's not as if the USA is big into helping the poor, is it? So it's an easy thing to say to counter racial preferences, but my guess is that the same arguments could then be made, because it could still be called unfair to give someone a preference (a job or a place at university) because they are poor, and not because of their qualifications. This might especially be the case if socioeconomic measures did benefit, say, African Americans disproportionately. Then some would say (indeed have, here) that it would be helping black people via the back door. So I do sometimes wonder if the proposal to assist the poor generally, instead of black people, is a bit conveniently phoney when expressed by at least some people (conservatives, typically).

 

[ruby sparks]

"This Article is a critique of class [socioeconomic]-based affirmative action. It begins by observing that many professed politically conservative individuals have championed class-based affirmative action. However, it observes that political conservatism is not typically identified as an ideology that generally approves of improving the poor’s well-being through the means that class-based affirmative action employs....".

And further...

"... it has been difficult for people of color—black people, particularly—to access the ranks of the deserving poor. If history is a teacher, then we might expect that it will be difficult for society to continue to imagine that the beneficiaries of class [socioenomic]-based affirmative action are the deserving poor if these class-conscious programs disproportionately benefit racial minorities".

The Deserving Poor, the Undeserving Poor, and Class-Based Affirmative Action.
https://scholarship.law.bu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1064&context=faculty_scholarship