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Equal marriage means less sex

Satoshi Kanazawa is one guy who doesn't know to distinguish between causation and correlation.

The alleged beauty/IQ correlation boils down to this: "it was the children’s teacher who was asked to assess their physical attractiveness". If you're positively predisposed to an individual, you're more likely to judge him or her positively on other dimensions. And none of what he says beyond this point does anything to counter that as the most plausible explanation.
 
Correlation ≠ causation!

ApostateAbe said:
I don't know if this is good science. Correlation is not always causation.

While these statements are true, it is also true that randomized double-blind experiments don't always = causation, and that causation is never actually observed but is always inferred from correlation under particular conditions. The data from any study, is ultimately observed covariance between measured variables. The possible explanations for that covariance are 1) X --> Y; 2) Y --> X ; or 3) some other third variable "Z" causes both X and Y; 4) it is an artifact of sampling error and no real correlation exists in the population
#4 is dealt with by tests of statistical significance which estimate the probability that the covariance could result from random sampling error (most likely small samples. However, that only estimates the probability as being "low" (usually < .05) and not zero. So, the best of experiments are still occassionally due to the impact of #4.
#2 is dealt with by randomly assigning people to groups and manipulating the X variable at a specific moment in time, so you can infer that the cause of variance in X is not due to Y.
#3 is dealt with by random assignment to conditions, or by statistically controlling for as many plausible third "Z" variables as you can measure.

Note that while statistical controls are inferior to random assignment, random assignment is far from perfect. Random assignment assumes that the assignment to groups produces perfectly equal groups that have identical averages and distributions on every variable in the universe, including pre-existing differences in Y. This is never quite the case, and the smaller the sample the more likely that your groups differ prior to the experimental manipulation on other variables, both various Z variables and on Y. If you measure randomly assigned group on a bunch of variables prior to the experiment, you often find that they do still differ in statistically significant ways on some third variables and on Y.
Thus, causality is always inferred from correlation based upon assumptions about how the context of those observations constrain the plausibility of (but never quite eliminate) alternatives to X --> Y.

Jokodo said:
All we have here is a significant correlation between men doing more "feminine" chores and less sex.

No, we have more than that. What we have in this case in a non-experiment that leave open Y --> X, but takes steps to notably reduce the plausibility of most third variables being the cause. Any explanation involving any variable highly related to the many variables (income, marital satisfaction, sexual satisfaction, gender ideology, religion, etc) that they controlled for is made much less plausible by their methods.




Jokodo said:
A plausible scenario with inverted causality:

A significant minority of men who do more "feminine" chores do so in an attempt (conscious or otherwise) to "earn" more sex, after being unsatisfied with their sex life for other reasons. Doing so might even improve their sex lives and we'd still get this result as long as it doesn't improve their sex life enough to make up for the fact that their relationships were less sexually satisfying to start with.

Ironically, that is actually related to the popular but untested assumption that the researchers were investigating. They don't seem to have any agenda trying to show that doing "feminine" housework harms you sexlife. They were just skeptical of the opposite claim often made in pop-psych and the media that men would get rewarded with sex for housework. What their data shows is that this is not true or at minimum the rewards are so minimal that they fail to make up for the fact that men willing to do more such housework are getting less sex for other reasons. The researchers don't really make strong causal claims beyond pointing out that the data are inconsistent with the idea that housework results in more or better sex (note that the actual research article includes sexual satisfaction and shows the same result as sexual frequency).
 
A thought here:

In a situation where one party dominates the marriage I would expect them to dominate the bedroom--sex will generally happen if they want it to.

In a situation of equality the desires of both will be more important--sex will generally only happen if they both want it.

As I pointed out, they deal with this kind of thing. First, the result do not depend upon the men's or the women's attitudes about traditional gender roles or their religion. Second, men who do less housework not only have more sex, but their wives are more sexually satisfied, which contradicts the idea they are being coerced to have sex when they don't want it.
 
Jokodo said:
A plausible scenario with inverted causality:

A significant minority of men who do more "feminine" chores do so in an attempt (conscious or otherwise) to "earn" more sex, after being unsatisfied with their sex life for other reasons. Doing so might even improve their sex lives and we'd still get this result as long as it doesn't improve their sex life enough to make up for the fact that their relationships were less sexually satisfying to start with.

Ironically, that is actually related to the popular but untested assumption that the researchers were investigating. They don't seem to have any agenda trying to show that doing "feminine" housework harms you sexlife. They were just skeptical of the opposite claim often made in pop-psych and the media that men would get rewarded with sex for housework. What their data shows is that this is not true or at minimum the rewards are so minimal that they fail to make up for the fact that men willing to do more such housework are getting less sex for other reasons. The researchers don't really make strong causal claims beyond pointing out that the data are inconsistent with the idea that housework results in more or better sex (note that the actual research article includes sexual satisfaction and shows the same result as sexual frequency).

I don't know if that's a popular assumption, but if it is, that'd make my scenario even more likely, wouldn't it? (I never claimed that it works - just that some desperate men try it.) As opposed to ApostateAbe's totally unfounded "only sissies would do housework and women don't fuck sissies" (my paraphrasis).
 
"only sissies would do housework and women don't fuck sissies" is a good way of putting it. Unfounded? The general evolutionary explanation that women have a sexual preference for powerful men is reinforced by a wide array of data and a strong biological pattern of sexual dimorphism. Striking down the science that disagrees with you is one thing, but it is generally better to have science on your side. Otherwise, the imperfect science wins.
 
"only sissies would do housework and women don't fuck sissies" is a good way of putting it. Unfounded? The general evolutionary explanation that women have a sexual preference for powerful men is reinforced by a wide array of data and a strong biological pattern of sexual dimorphism. Striking down the science that disagrees with you is one thing, but it is generally better to have science on your side. Otherwise, the imperfect science wins.

Who are you calling a sissy?
 
Jokodo said:
A plausible scenario with inverted causality:

A significant minority of men who do more "feminine" chores do so in an attempt (conscious or otherwise) to "earn" more sex, after being unsatisfied with their sex life for other reasons. Doing so might even improve their sex lives and we'd still get this result as long as it doesn't improve their sex life enough to make up for the fact that their relationships were less sexually satisfying to start with.

Ironically, that is actually related to the popular but untested assumption that the researchers were investigating. They don't seem to have any agenda trying to show that doing "feminine" housework harms you sexlife. They were just skeptical of the opposite claim often made in pop-psych and the media that men would get rewarded with sex for housework. What their data shows is that this is not true or at minimum the rewards are so minimal that they fail to make up for the fact that men willing to do more such housework are getting less sex for other reasons. The researchers don't really make strong causal claims beyond pointing out that the data are inconsistent with the idea that housework results in more or better sex (note that the actual research article includes sexual satisfaction and shows the same result as sexual frequency).

I don't know if that's a popular assumption, but if it is, that'd make my scenario even more likely, wouldn't it? .

It would make it more likely that some men not getting much sex would try to do more housework to "buy" more sex. The observed correlations would only emerge if the men who do more housework to get more sex are also not very good at pleasing their wives sexually and if their housework strategy does not work. Also, it suggests that men who do little housework are often no less egalitarian or respectful of women, they are just more desirable and better at sex so they don't need to bribe their wives for it. I am not saying these things are all the case, just that if your hypothetical account of the data were true, it could only account for the data if these other things were true as well. Also, note that whatever the reason why these men who bribe for sex are not getting it already, it cannot be strongly tied to any of the many variables they controlled for. So, it more than a mere correlation. It is a constrained correlation where housework relates both to frequency and quality of sex, but is not dependent most of the obvious factors that would serve as alternatives to a direct causal relation between housework and sex.

The study is certainly not pseudo-science and is actually some of the better social science out there regarding sexuality and gender roles (most of which is tainted by more ideological bias than this one).
 
"only sissies would do housework and women don't fuck sissies" is a good way of putting it. Unfounded? The general evolutionary explanation that women have a sexual preference for powerful men is reinforced by a wide array of data and a strong biological pattern of sexual dimorphism. Striking down the science that disagrees with you is one thing, but it is generally better to have science on your side. Otherwise, the imperfect science wins.

Who are you calling a sissy?
Not you, Mr. Super Mod, sir. *hide*
 
"only sissies would do housework and women don't fuck sissies" is a good way of putting it. Unfounded? The general evolutionary explanation that women have a sexual preference for powerful men is reinforced by a wide array of data and a strong biological pattern of sexual dimorphism. Striking down the science that disagrees with you is one thing, but it is generally better to have science on your side. Otherwise, the imperfect science wins.

I'll just note that this is coming from somebody who, just on the previous page of this thread, in support of a claim of his provided links to two papers neither of which discussed his claim.


ETA: Also, non sequitur. "sexual preference for powerful men" doesn't say anything about housework. You haven't even tried to make an argument for the first part of the conjunction (not even as much as citing papers that don't, in fact, talk about it).
 
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Jokodo said:
A plausible scenario with inverted causality:

A significant minority of men who do more "feminine" chores do so in an attempt (conscious or otherwise) to "earn" more sex, after being unsatisfied with their sex life for other reasons. Doing so might even improve their sex lives and we'd still get this result as long as it doesn't improve their sex life enough to make up for the fact that their relationships were less sexually satisfying to start with.

Ironically, that is actually related to the popular but untested assumption that the researchers were investigating. They don't seem to have any agenda trying to show that doing "feminine" housework harms you sexlife. They were just skeptical of the opposite claim often made in pop-psych and the media that men would get rewarded with sex for housework. What their data shows is that this is not true or at minimum the rewards are so minimal that they fail to make up for the fact that men willing to do more such housework are getting less sex for other reasons. The researchers don't really make strong causal claims beyond pointing out that the data are inconsistent with the idea that housework results in more or better sex (note that the actual research article includes sexual satisfaction and shows the same result as sexual frequency).

I don't know if that's a popular assumption, but if it is, that'd make my scenario even more likely, wouldn't it? .

It would make it more likely that some men not getting much sex would try to do more housework to "buy" more sex. The observed correlations would only emerge if the men who do more housework to get more sex are also not very good at pleasing their wives sexually

That's not much of an assumption - that men who are poor at pleasing their wives would experience lower frequency of sex and thus be more motivated to try and buy sex by whatever means they consider likely to succeed is pretty commonsensical.

and if their housework strategy does not work.

Not much of a leap either. There's not logical reason why doing housework should make you better at sex, so even if women would occasionally "reward" men for housework, that effect is expected to wear off quickly since the underlying reason isn't being addressed.

Also, it suggests that men who do little housework are often no less egalitarian or respectful of women, they are just more desirable and better at sex so they don't need to bribe their wives for it.

It suggests that some men who do more housework than average do so in an attempt to bribe their wifes for sex. It does not imply that there aren't many other men who do housework just because they consider it a matter of course that they take their share in making the home a place where you'd want to be. The fact that those men would be spread over the whole spectrum from worst to best at sex just means they don't affect the averages.

Here's a very simple model. Intrinsic sexual prowess and intrinsic inclination to to housework are two uncorrelated numbers with values randomly distributed between 0 and 99. Of those men with sexual prowess below 30, 1 in 2 tries to buy sex buy doing more housework than he otherwise would (i.e., his value for housework increases by 40, although not exceeding the maximum of 99). And indeed, this helps him to get slightly more sex (his value for sexual prowess is increased by 5). Here's some Python code for this simple model:

Code:
#!/usr/bin/python

import numpy as np, random as rd

# initiate a population of 100k men as tuples of two uncorrelated figures.
# format: (<intrinsic_household_score>, <intrinsic_sexual_prowess>):
men_intrinsic = [(rd.randrange(100), rd.randrange(100)) for i in range(100000)]


men_actual = []

for man in men_intrinsic:   
    # 50% of men with a sexual prowess below 30 try 
    # to buy sex, with limited success:
    if man[1] < 30 and rd.randrange(2) == 1:
        man =  (np.min([man[0] + 40, 99]), man[1] + 5)
    men_actual.append(man)
 
# average sexual prowess of men with household scores below 20:
print np.average([man[1] for man in men_actual if man[0] < 20])

# Exemplary result:
# Out[62]: 56.0921398144

# average for men with household scores above 80
print np.average([man[1] for man in men_actual if man[0] > 80])

# Exemplary result:
# Out[61]: 43.001508116

If we now look at the averages, we find that actualised sexual prowess of men whose actualised household score is above 80 is roughly 43, while the actualised sexual prowess for men whose actualised household score is below 20 is 56. And this in a model where there is a reward, if modest, for household work.



<snip>The study is certainly not pseudo-science and is actually some of the better social science out there regarding sexuality and gender roles (most of which is tainted by more ideological bias than this one).

I'm not saying the study is (although the newspaper rendering of it is), and I didn't post it here.

What is pseudoscience is ApostateAbe's declarations.
 
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Jokodo said:
A plausible scenario with inverted causality:

A significant minority of men who do more "feminine" chores do so in an attempt (conscious or otherwise) to "earn" more sex, after being unsatisfied with their sex life for other reasons. Doing so might even improve their sex lives and we'd still get this result as long as it doesn't improve their sex life enough to make up for the fact that their relationships were less sexually satisfying to start with.

Ironically, that is actually related to the popular but untested assumption that the researchers were investigating. They don't seem to have any agenda trying to show that doing "feminine" housework harms you sexlife. They were just skeptical of the opposite claim often made in pop-psych and the media that men would get rewarded with sex for housework. What their data shows is that this is not true or at minimum the rewards are so minimal that they fail to make up for the fact that men willing to do more such housework are getting less sex for other reasons. The researchers don't really make strong causal claims beyond pointing out that the data are inconsistent with the idea that housework results in more or better sex (note that the actual research article includes sexual satisfaction and shows the same result as sexual frequency).

I don't know if that's a popular assumption, but if it is, that'd make my scenario even more likely, wouldn't it? .

It would make it more likely that some men not getting much sex would try to do more housework to "buy" more sex. The observed correlations would only emerge if the men who do more housework to get more sex are also not very good at pleasing their wives sexually

That's not much of an assumption - that men who are poor at pleasing their wives would experience lower frequency of sex and thus be more motivated to try and buy sex by whatever means they consider likely to succeed is pretty commonsensical.

and if their housework strategy does not work.

Not much of a leap either. There's not logical reason why doing housework should make you better at sex, so even if women would occasionally "reward" men for housework, that effect is expected to wear off quickly since the underlying reason isn't being addressed.

Also, it suggests that men who do little housework are often no less egalitarian or respectful of women, they are just more desirable and better at sex so they don't need to bribe their wives for it.

It suggests that some men who do more housework than average do so in an attempt to bribe their wifes for sex. It does not imply that there aren't many other men who do housework just because they consider it a matter of course that they take their share in making the home a place where you'd want to be. The fact that those men would be spread over the whole spectrum from worst to best at sex just means they don't affect the averages.

Here's a very simple model. Intrinsic sexual prowess and intrinsic inclination to to housework are two uncorrelated numbers with values randomly distributed between 0 and 99. Of those men with sexual prowess below 30, 1 in 2 tries to buy sex buy doing more housework than he otherwise would (i.e., his value for housework increases by 40, although not exceeding the maximum of 99). And indeed, this helps him to get slightly more sex (his value for sexual prowess is increased by 5). Here's some Python code for this simple model:

Code:
#!/usr/bin/python

import numpy as np, random as rd

# initiate a population of 100k men as tuples of two uncorrelated figures.
# format: (<intrinsic_household_score>, <intrinsic_sexual_prowess>):
men_intrinsic = [(rd.randrange(100), rd.randrange(100)) for i in range(100000)]


men_actual = []

for man in men_intrinsic:   
    # 50% of men with a sexual prowess below 30 try 
    # to buy sex, with limited success:
    if man[1] < 30 and rd.randrange(2) == 1:
        man =  (np.min([man[0] + 40, 99]), man[1] + 5)
    men_actual.append(man)
 
# average sexual prowess of men with household scores below 20:
print np.average([man[1] for man in men_actual if man[0] < 20])

# Exemplary result:
# Out[62]: 56.0921398144

# average for men with household scores above 80
print np.average([man[1] for man in men_actual if man[0] > 80])

# Exemplary result:
# Out[61]: 43.001508116

If we now look at the averages, we find that actualised sexual prowess of men whose actualised household score is above 80 is roughly 43, while the actualised sexual prowess for men whose actualised household score is below 20 is 56. And this in a model where there is a reward, if modest, for household work.

That's all good. My point is that the researchers wouldn't have a problem with this interpretation. They don't seem to be trying to make strong causal claims, just that there is no evidence of any sexual rewards for housework and that the evidence in more consistent with just the opposite. Also, your interpretation actually presumes a direct causal relationship where lack of sex causes men to do more housework. That is more than sufficient to account for the data, so it is more parsimonious than adding extra assumption that the housework has some impact. While possible, its added assumptions make it less plausible than the simpler model that less sex increases housework. It is also less parsimonious and thus less plausible than a model that women are less aroused by the men who do more housework. Note that all of these are direct causal associations, thus they can deal with the problem that the relationship does not depend upon any of the control variables. Most third variable explanations with theoretical plausibility are made less plausible by the control variables. For example, it is plausible that working wives have husbands who do more housework and they are just too tired or the couple is not alone enough to have sex. Both of these make predictions that are inconsistent with the data, namely that things like hours worked, income, hours home alone would account for the relationship. So, there is much more than a mere correlation here. It is a highly constrained one for which there is a more limited set of plausible explanations and the most parsimonious (and at least as theoretically plausible) being a simple direct relationship in either direction.
 
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