Evangelicals' bad reputation

[funinspace]

It seems that many evangelicals are cocky and evasive as well...

 

[steve_bank]

There has been discussion in the media over the Christian paper supporting impeachment. From Evangelicals themselves he majority of Evangelicals frame al issues through the bible, even immigration.

 

[Politesse]

There has been discussion in the media over the Christian paper supporting impeachment. From Evangelicals themselves he majority of Evangelicals frame al issues through the bible, even immigration.

If they framed immigration with "the Bible" they would have very different positions on it. This is not a point on which the Scriptures are vague, ambiguous, or contradictory. "You must love the alien in your midst, for you were foreigners in Egypt".

At best, evangelicals pay lip service to the Bible, they despise its philosophies and neatly everything it would demand of them. They are the white washed tombs where literate theology goes to die.

 

[lpetrich]

There has been discussion in the media over the Christian paper supporting impeachment. From Evangelicals themselves he majority of Evangelicals frame al issues through the bible, even immigration.

A lot of Bible interpretation looks like making the Bible seem like it's in one's moral likeness.

Jesus Christ the social worker, JC the entrepreneur, JC the poor person, JC the rich person, JC the pacifist, JC the militant, JC the Jew, JC the opponent of Jews, ...

 

[steve_bank]

There has been discussion in the media over the Christian paper supporting impeachment. From Evangelicals themselves he majority of Evangelicals frame al issues through the bible, even immigration.

If they framed immigration with "the Bible" they would have very different positions on it. This is not a point on which the Scriptures are vague, ambiguous, or contradictory. "You must love the alien in your midst, for you were foreigners in Egypt".

At best, evangelicals pay lip service to the Bible, they despise its philosophies and neatly everything it would demand of them. They are the white washed tombs where literate theology goes to die.

You really, really do not understand. The majority conservative evangelicals use scripture as a context for everything, liberally.

In one instance they may cite 'a tooth for a tooth' in another 'turn the other cheek'. You can find anjustification for anything in the bible, as Ipetrich pointed out.

If you have been around them enough you would know.

And of course you can say they are not really Christians, but then what is a Christian? To answer that any number of interpretations are possible. Regardless of morality anyone can claim to be Christian. One can wear a cross while fornicating, which Jesus lumped with murder. The gospel Jesus left nothing clear in the gospels as to what that would mean. Understandable seeing as he was a Jew quoting Jewish prophets and law and preaching to Jews.

Christianity was a later invention. A better name is Paulism.

Evangelicals I believe are an invention going back to the 17th or 18th century.

'Pagan Christian' is an invention.

Christianity WAS A GENTILE CREATION FOSTERD BY pAUL.

 

[Politesse]

There has been discussion in the media over the Christian paper supporting impeachment. From Evangelicals themselves he majority of Evangelicals frame al issues through the bible, even immigration.

If they framed immigration with "the Bible" they would have very different positions on it. This is not a point on which the Scriptures are vague, ambiguous, or contradictory. "You must love the alien in your midst, for you were foreigners in Egypt".

At best, evangelicals pay lip service to the Bible, they despise its philosophies and neatly everything it would demand of them. They are the white washed tombs where literate theology goes to die.

You really, really do not understand. The majority conservative evangelicals use scripture as a context for everything, liberally.

In one instance they may cite 'a tooth for a tooth' in another 'turn the other cheek'. You can find anjustification for anything in the bible, as Ipetrich pointed out.

If you have been around them enough you would know.

And of course you can say they are not really Christians, but then what is a Christian? To answer that any number of interpretations are possible. Regardless of morality anyone can claim to be Christian. One can wear a cross while fornicating, which Jesus lumped with murder. The gospel Jesus left nothing clear in the gospels as to what that would mean. Understandable seeing as he was a Jew quoting Jewish prophets and law and preaching to Jews.

Christianity was a later invention. A better name is Paulism.

Evangelicals I believe are an invention going back to the 17th or 18th century.

'Pagan Christian' is an invention.

Christianity WAS A GENTILE CREATION FOSTERD BY pAUL.

Just because I don't agree with them doesn't mean I haven't met them. How on earth could any American manage to avoid meeting any evangelicals?

 

[steve_bank]

You really, really do not understand. The majority conservative evangelicals use scripture as a context for everything, liberally.

In one instance they may cite 'a tooth for a tooth' in another 'turn the other cheek'. You can find anjustification for anything in the bible, as Ipetrich pointed out.

If you have been around them enough you would know.

And of course you can say they are not really Christians, but then what is a Christian? To answer that any number of interpretations are possible. Regardless of morality anyone can claim to be Christian. One can wear a cross while fornicating, which Jesus lumped with murder. The gospel Jesus left nothing clear in the gospels as to what that would mean. Understandable seeing as he was a Jew quoting Jewish prophets and law and preaching to Jews.

Christianity was a later invention. A better name is Paulism.

Evangelicals I believe are an invention going back to the 17th or 18th century.

'Pagan Christian' is an invention.

Christianity WAS A GENTILE CREATION FOSTERD BY pAUL.

Just because I don't agree with them doesn't mean I haven't met them. How on earth could any American manage to avoid meeting any evangelicals?

I have been to an evangelical private meeting. Talking in tongues, visions, laying hands faith healing. God is the causation of every experience and happening in their lives. I did some contract work for an evangelical entrepreur who got into some trouble on his project. His wife assured me god had sent me to help them, god alwys does.

They substituted prayer for planning.There were technical and other problems close to a trade show. They went on a trip to Hawaii. Before the trip mother, father, daughter, and son joined hands praying god and Jesus would work things out for them.

That is a true believer.

 

[Politesse]

You really, really do not understand. The majority conservative evangelicals use scripture as a context for everything, liberally.

In one instance they may cite 'a tooth for a tooth' in another 'turn the other cheek'. You can find anjustification for anything in the bible, as Ipetrich pointed out.

If you have been around them enough you would know.

And of course you can say they are not really Christians, but then what is a Christian? To answer that any number of interpretations are possible. Regardless of morality anyone can claim to be Christian. One can wear a cross while fornicating, which Jesus lumped with murder. The gospel Jesus left nothing clear in the gospels as to what that would mean. Understandable seeing as he was a Jew quoting Jewish prophets and law and preaching to Jews.

Christianity was a later invention. A better name is Paulism.

Evangelicals I believe are an invention going back to the 17th or 18th century.

'Pagan Christian' is an invention.

Christianity WAS A GENTILE CREATION FOSTERD BY pAUL.

Just because I don't agree with them doesn't mean I haven't met them. How on earth could any American manage to avoid meeting any evangelicals?

I have been to an evangelical private meeting. Talking in tongues, visions, laying hands faith healing. God is the causation of every experience and happening in their lives. I did some contract work for an evangelical entrepreur who got into some trouble on his project. His wife assured me god had sent me to help them, god alwys does.

They substituted prayer for planning.There were technical and other problems close to a trade show. They went on a trip to Hawaii. Before the trip mother, father, daughter, and son joined hands praying god and Jesus would work things out for them.

That is a true believer.

That sounds more like a Pentecostal meeting actually.

 

[steve_bank]

I have been to an evangelical private meeting. Talking in tongues, visions, laying hands faith healing. God is the causation of every experience and happening in their lives. I did some contract work for an evangelical entrepreur who got into some trouble on his project. His wife assured me god had sent me to help them, god alwys does.

They substituted prayer for planning.There were technical and other problems close to a trade show. They went on a trip to Hawaii. Before the trip mother, father, daughter, and son joined hands praying god and Jesus would work things out for them.

That is a true believer.

That sounds more like a Pentecostal meeting actually.

You are either a true believer or you are not. God does or does not exist. If you are a be liver you belie in the supernatural. God knows who you are. And so on. The biblical god is or is not. Jesus did or did not rise from the dead. There is no middle ground.

You can be an intellectual Christian and dance around the issues, IMO that is disingenuous.

 

[Sarpedon]

Its not as if anything bad can happen to you in Hawaii. Try taking a trip to Iran and relying on the power of prayer.

 

[Politesse]

I have been to an evangelical private meeting. Talking in tongues, visions, laying hands faith healing. God is the causation of every experience and happening in their lives. I did some contract work for an evangelical entrepreur who got into some trouble on his project. His wife assured me god had sent me to help them, god alwys does.

They substituted prayer for planning.There were technical and other problems close to a trade show. They went on a trip to Hawaii. Before the trip mother, father, daughter, and son joined hands praying god and Jesus would work things out for them.

That is a true believer.

That sounds more like a Pentecostal meeting actually.

You are either a true believer or you are not. God does or does not exist. If you are a be liver you belie in the supernatural. God knows who you are. And so on. The biblical god is or is not. Jesus did or did not rise from the dead. There is no middle ground.

You can be an intellectual Christian and dance around the issues, IMO that is disingenuous.

Thanks pastor, lol!

 

[southernhybrid]

I agree with Politesse on this one. There are so many different versions and sects of Christianity, that I see no reason why one can't be a pagan Christian, an atheist Christian or some other version. It's all mythology. Mythology often has morality lessons that can be used as examples. God can be a metaphor for the unknown, or that which we don't yet understand. God can be a metaphor for nature. God doesn't have to be a literal entity.

I had a friendly discussion with a former Christian who is now an atheist about this. She insisted that one can't be an atheist and a Christian, while I insisted that anyone can interpret mythology however it suits them. I've known atheist Christians. They embrace some of the better parts of the Christian message and they enjoy the communities they found at church. It drives me a bit crazy, sometimes a short drive, when an atheist tells those who choose to identify as Christians what they must believe. Who the fuck cares! I'll take an atheist Christian over a Bible thumping Christian any day of the week.

I have tried to explain to my friend that I feel she over reacts to things in the South. Southern culture is full of the influences of Christian culture. We use phrases like "have a blessed day" all the time. It bothers her but it doesn't bother me in the least. Why do I have to take blessings as something from god? Why can't I simply think of blessing as secular good wishes? I guess that atheists are like Christians in that we all interpret mythology in different ways.

 

[Politesse]

If it's my intellectual honesty that's being challenged, I would challenge the idea that there's such a thing as a non-Pagan Christian. YHWH was, at one point, just another god among the many local gods of Eurasia, and Jesus very obviously a magic user however many arbitrary linguistic walls you want to put between a miracle and a spell. We are currently celebrating a renamed Roman holiday (Christmas/Saturnalia) with a bevy of repurposed Norse symbols (wreaths/trees/fae lights) and stolen Jewish rituals (most of the liturgy) but I'm supposedly the disingenuous one for calling that spade a spade, and choosing to embrace it instead of shoving it in the closet? Sorry buddy, I'm done with closets, all of them. I was born done with them.

The evangelicals are enjoying the rich syncretism of our shared faith just as much as I am, they're just trying to purposefully ignore or if pressed outright lie about the history of the traditions they enthusiastically engage in. But I'm disingenuous, sure. You know, I'll happily answer any question you put to me. With no lies, and no repackaging of ancient truths in cutesy, socially acceptable Christian tropes. Can Franklin Graham or Paula Williams say the same? I think not!

But folks like Steve and Koy will jump to call me disingenuous because my honest answer is often "I don't know" or "both of those options are fine", and at the end of the day I think ambiguity unnerves them more than inaccuracy.

/rant

 

[steve_bank]

That is my point. One be a secular philosophy or a religious sect of one. The word Christian has no meaning. As does the word pagan.

In our modern liberal society we can call ourselves whatever we like. You can call yourself communist capitalist, atheist theist, Muslim Jewish or whatever you like. You will not get much traction with contradictions.

Jesus was a Jew. To ancient Jews pagans were the antithesis of their faith.

To monotheistic Christians pagan meant a wide array of cults, deities, and practices.


Judaism followed by Christianity was and is monotheistic. If you accept the NT writings the early followers of Jesus gathered singing, reading Jewish scripture, laying hands, speaking in tongues.

If one is a Christian derived from the NT, then one would do what the early followers did.

The basis of Christianity

1. Monotheistic one supreme god.
2. Jesus son of god.
3. Resurrection of Jesus.

There are philosophical Christians who reject the supernatural. But that is not what is in the gospels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism#Modern_pagan

Paganism (from classical Latin pāgānus "rural, rustic," later "civilian") is a term first used in the fourth century by early Christians for people in the Roman Empire who practiced polytheism. This was either because they were increasingly rural and provincial relative to the Christian population, or because they were not milites Christi (soldiers of Christ).[1][2] Alternate terms in Christian texts for the same group were hellene, gentile, and heathen.[3] Ritual sacrifice was an integral part of ancient Graeco-Roman religion[4] and was regarded as an indication of whether a person was pagan or Christian.[4]

Paganism was originally a pejorative and derogatory term for polytheism, implying its inferiority.[3] Paganism has broadly connoted the "religion of the peasantry".[3][5] During and after the Middle Ages, the term paganism was applied to any unfamiliar religion, and the term presumed a belief in false god(s).[6][7] Most modern pagan religions existing today (Modern or Neopaganism[8][9]) express a world view that is pantheistic, polytheistic or animistic; but some are monotheistic.[10]

The origin of the application of the term pagan to polytheism is debated.[11] In the 19th century, paganism was adopted as a self-descriptor by members of various artistic groups inspired by the ancient world. In the 20th century, it came to be applied as a self-descriptor by practitioners of Modern Paganism, Neopagan movements and Polytheistic reconstructionists. Modern pagan traditions often incorporate beliefs or practices, such as nature worship, that are different from those in the largest world religions.[12][13]

Contemporary knowledge of old pagan religions comes from several sources, including anthropological field research records, the evidence of archaeological artifacts, and the historical accounts of ancient writers regarding cultures known to Classical antiquity.


Modern paganism, or neopaganism, includes reconstructed religions such as Roman Polytheistic Reconstructionism, Hellenism, Slavic Native Faith, Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism, or heathenry, as well as modern eclectic traditions such as Wicca and its many offshoots, Neo-Druidism, and Discordianism.

However, there often exists a distinction or separation between some polytheistic reconstructionists such as Hellenism and revivalist neopagans like Wiccans. The divide is over numerous issues such as the importance of accurate orthopraxy according to ancient sources available, the use and concept of magic, which calendar to use and which holidays to observe, as well as the use of the term pagan itself.[68][69][70]

Many of the revivals, Wicca and Neo-Druidism in particular, have their roots in 19th century Romanticism and retain noticeable elements of occultism or Theosophy that were current then, setting them apart from historical rural (paganus) folk religion. Most modern pagans, however, believe in the divine character of the natural world and paganism is often described as an Earth religion.[71]


The hammer Mjölnir is one of the primary symbols of Germanic neopaganism.
There are a number of neopagan authors who have examined the relation of the 20th-century movements of polytheistic revival with historical polytheism on one hand and contemporary traditions of folk religion on the other. Isaac Bonewits introduced a terminology to make this distinction.[72]

Paleopaganism
A retronym coined to contrast with Neopaganism, original polytheistic, nature-centered faiths, such as the pre-Hellenistic Greek and pre-imperial Roman religion, pre-Migration period Germanic paganism as described by Tacitus, or Celtic polytheism as described by Julius Caesar.
Mesopaganism
A group, which is, or has been, significantly influenced by monotheistic, dualistic, or nontheistic worldviews, but has been able to maintain an independence of religious practices. This group includes aboriginal Americans as well as Aboriginal Australians, Viking Age Norse paganism and New Age spirituality. Influences include: Spiritualism, and the many Afro-Diasporic faiths like Haitian Vodou, Santería and Espiritu religion. Isaac Bonewits includes British Traditional Wicca in this subdivision.
Neopaganism
A movement by modern people to revive nature-revering/living, pre-Christian religions or other nature-based spiritual paths, frequently also incorporating contemporary liberal values[citation needed] at odds with ancient paganism.[citation needed] This definition may include groups such as Wicca, Neo-Druidism, Heathenry, and Slavic Native Faith.
Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick in their A History of Pagan Europe (1995) classify pagan religions as characterized by the following traits:

Polytheism: Pagan religions recognise a plurality of divine beings, which may or may not be considered aspects of an underlying unity (the soft and hard polytheism distinction).
Nature-based: Pagan religions have a concept of the divinity of nature, which they view as a manifestation of the divine, not as the fallen creation found in dualistic cosmology.
Sacred feminine: Pagan religions recognize the female divine principle, identified as the Goddess (as opposed to individual goddesses) beside or in place of the male divine principle as expressed in the Abrahamic God.[73]
In modern times, Heathen and Heathenry are increasingly used to refer to those branches of neopaganism inspired by the pre-Christian religions of the Germanic, Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon peoples.[74]

In Iceland, the members of Ásatrúarfélagið account for 0.4% of the total population,[75] which is just over a thousand people. In Lithuania, many people practice Romuva, a revived version of the pre-Christian religion of that country. Lithuania was among the last areas of Europe to be Christianized. Odinism has been established on a formal basis in Australia since at least the 1930s.[76]

 

[Wiploc]

I've worked with and am friends with a couple evangelical types and they're decent folks with families and all that. Maybe the key to not demonizing anyone is to have contact with them and do things together, like being employed or enjoying public venues.

That could work with Neo-Nazis too.

 

[Wiploc]

It does not look like we are really going to deal with global warming seriously enough to avoid a rather seriously troubling future. The real problems will not hit us for another 30 - 50 years. When it does, it is going to destroy the anti-intellectuals, conservatives, big business that has been feeding climate denial, and yes, Christians who have managed to buy into all of this big time, many of them.

Serious problems caused by global warming are going to make these pariahs. Christianity is not going to be popular with many when the stupidity of all of this is undeniable. This is all going to make the embarrassment of the Galileo affair pale by comparison.

If contradiction-by-reality could trouble them, they'd have been destroyed long since.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

That is indeed slowly happening. Atheism has made great gains in Western Europe. And now, 10% of Americans are atheists if we believe Gallup and Pew Research. A lot of people are steadily growing weary of anti-intellectual and toxic Christianity. And Islam. A surprising number of people, who claim to have no religion or the be Christians do not believe in the God of the Bible or Quran, but some sort of higher power/spiritual force.



Change is under way.

 

[Learner]

No dispute there. It looks like you are describing rise in non-believers and alternative faiths in Revelation.

 

[funinspace]

That is my point. One be a secular philosophy or a religious sect of one. The word Christian has no meaning. As does the word pagan.

In our modern liberal society we can call ourselves whatever we like. You can call yourself communist capitalist, atheist theist, Muslim Jewish or whatever you like. You will not get much traction with contradictions.

The word Christian covers a large umbrella of views, just like words such as: capitalist, liberal, conservative, et.al.

Jesus was a Jew. To ancient Jews pagans were the antithesis of their faith.

Thought you said Jesus was God? So how is he a Jew?

Judaism followed by Christianity was and is monotheistic. If you accept the NT writings the early followers of Jesus gathered singing, reading Jewish scripture, laying hands, speaking in tongues.

If one is a Christian derived from the NT, then one would do what the early followers did.

The basis of Christianity

1. Monotheistic one supreme god.
2. Jesus son of god.
3. Resurrection of Jesus.

There are philosophical Christians who reject the supernatural. But that is not what is in the gospels.

LOL...you would make a good right wing evangelical.

If one did what is claimed of the early followers of the NT, then one would be a pacifist, and organize and live in communes as well. They would not be prone to lying, deceiving or be particularly greedy. If one added this measure, there would be few 'evangelical' Christians.

I've known more than a few Christians that were not sure of Jesus as God, and they seemed just as Christian as those pontificating evangelicals.

 

[lpetrich]

No dispute there. It looks like you are describing rise in non-believers and alternative faiths in Revelation.

What's the connection? Is it something like "wars and rumors of wars"? Predicting something like that is too easy.