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Exra Klein Dives Into the Gap Between Pulbic Perception of HIllary and What She's Like in Person

http://www.vox.com/a/hillary-clinton-interview/the-gap-listener-leadership-quality

“I love Bill Clinton,” says Tom Harkin, who served as senator from Iowa from 1985 to 2015. “But every time you talk to Bill, you’re just trying to get a word in edgewise. With Hillary, you’re in a meeting with her, and she really listens to you.”

This is not the first time I've heard that while she comes across as a policy wonk at best, and an ice queen at worst in public, in person Hillary Clinton is smart, funny, and engaging.

The article isn't exactly a love-fest (he spends quite a bit of time on her lack of management skills among other things) but the central premise - that she's different because she listens - is worth exploring. Our politics has been swamped with overly-charismatic people who are good at making speeches, but not good at the sort of compromise and horse-trading that makes effective policy.

I have met both of the Clintons and I made a presentation to the board of directors of the Lafarge Corporation when Hillary Clinton was on it. She is very sharp, she grasps things quickly and has a good legal mind. I was very impressed with her and I have always felt that it is fortunate that she dedicated her career to public service instead of to business where she could have made a lot more money with a lot fewer headaches. So few really capable people of my generation made this choice.
 
Very much agreed. The Iraq war and it's aftermath are a big reason why I've permanently moved away from the republicans. The American public did support the invasion. Now I do believe that most simply wanted a brutal dictator removed from office. Bush and the republicans deserve severe blame for the invasion for the falsely claiming Iraq sponsored Bin Laden and had weapons of mass destruction; and the terrible implementation of the invasion and it's occupation.
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I recall many people protesting against the invasions of Afghanistan and then Iraq at the time. I also recall it being Bush and his cronies pushing the war and people on Fox News saying you shouldn't question your president, equating it with being a traitor. Fun times.
 
Here's the deal: it was wildly popular position in the US to invade Iraq. It bothers me that people like Will try to pin all the blame on HRC. It's bullshit. America wanted that war.

As if war and no war were the only choices. Here was Bernie Sanders on the subject. He was correct:
Mr. Speaker, I do not think any Member of this body disagrees that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant, a murderer, and a man who has started two wars. He is clearly someone who cannot be trusted or believed. The question, Mr. Speaker, is not whether we like Saddam Hussein or not. The question is whether he represents an imminent threat to the American people and whether a unilateral invasion of Iraq will do more harm than good.

Mr. Speaker, the front page of The Washington Post today reported that all relevant U.S. intelligence agencies now say despite what we have heard from the White House that ``Saddam Hussein is unlikely to initiate a chemical or biological attack against the United States.'' Even more importantly, our intelligence agencies say that should Saddam conclude that a U.S.-led attack could no longer be deterred, he might at that point launch a chemical or biological counterattack. In other words, there is more danger of an attack on the United States if we launch a precipitous invasion.

Mr. Speaker, I do not know why the President feels, despite what our intelligence agencies are saying, that it is so important to pass a resolution of this magnitude this week and why it is necessary to go forward without the support of the United Nations and our major allies including those who are fighting side by side with us in the war on terrorism.

But I do feel that as a part of this process, the President is ignoring some of the most pressing economic issues affecting the well-being of ordinary Americans. There has been virtually no public discussion about the stock market's loss of trillions of dollars over the last few years and that millions of Americans have seen the retirement benefits for which they have worked their entire lives disappear. When are we going to address that issue? This country today has a $340 billion trade deficit, and we have lost 10 percent of our manufacturing jobs in the last 4 years, 2 million decent-paying jobs. The average American worker today is working longer hours for lower wages than 25 years ago. When are we going to address that issue?

Mr. Speaker, poverty in this country is increasing and median family income is declining. Throughout this country family farmers are being driven off of the land; and veterans, the people who put their lives on the line to defend us, are unable to get the health care and other benefits they were promised because of government underfunding. When are we going to tackle these issues and many other important issues that are of such deep concern to Americans?

Mr. Speaker, in the brief time I have, let me give five reasons why I am opposed to giving the President a blank check to launch a unilateral invasion and occupation of Iraq and why I will vote against this resolution. One, I have not heard any estimates of how many young American men and women might die in such a war or how many tens of thousands of women and children in Iraq might also be killed. As a caring Nation, we should do everything we can to prevent the horrible suffering that a war will cause. War must be the last recourse in international relations, not the first. Second, I am deeply concerned about the precedent that a unilateral invasion of Iraq could establish in terms of international law and the role of the United Nations. If President Bush believes that the U.S. can go to war at any time against any nation, what moral or legal objection could our government raise if another country chose to do the same thing?

Third, the United States is now involved in a very difficult war against international terrorism as we learned tragically on September 11. We are opposed by Osama bin Laden and religious fanatics who are prepared to engage in a kind of warfare that we have never experienced before. I agree with Brent Scowcroft, Republican former National Security Advisor for President George Bush, Sr., who stated, ``An attack on Iraq at this time would seriously jeopardize, if not destroy, the global counterterrorist campaign we have undertaken.''

Fourth, at a time when this country has a $6 trillion national debt and a growing deficit, we should be clear that a war and a long-term American occupation ofIraq could be extremely expensive.

Fifth, I am concerned about the problems of so-called unintended consequences. Who will govern Iraq when Saddam Hussein is removed and what role will the U.S. play in ensuing a civil war that could develop in that country? Will moderate governments in the region who have large Islamic fundamentalist populations be overthrown and replaced by extremists? Will the bloody conflict between Israel and the Palestinian Authority be exacerbated? And these are just a few of the questions that remain unanswered.

If a unilateral American invasion of Iraq is not the best approach, what should we do? In my view, the U.S. must work with the United Nations to make certain within clearly defined timelines that the U.N. inspectors are allowed to do their jobs. These inspectors should undertake an unfettered search for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and destroy them when found, pursuant to past U.N. resolutions. If Iraq resists inspection and elimination of stockpiled weapons, we should stand ready to assist the U.N. in forcing compliance.
 
As if war and no war were the only choices. Here was Bernie Sanders on the subject. He was correct:
Mr. Speaker, I do not think any Member of this body disagrees that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant, a murderer, and a man who has started two wars. He is clearly someone who cannot be trusted or believed. The question, Mr. Speaker, is not whether we like Saddam Hussein or not. The question is whether he represents an imminent threat to the American people and whether a unilateral invasion of Iraq will do more harm than good.

Mr. Speaker, the front page of The Washington Post today reported that all relevant U.S. intelligence agencies now say despite what we have heard from the White House that ``Saddam Hussein is unlikely to initiate a chemical or biological attack against the United States.'' Even more importantly, our intelligence agencies say that should Saddam conclude that a U.S.-led attack could no longer be deterred, he might at that point launch a chemical or biological counterattack. In other words, there is more danger of an attack on the United States if we launch a precipitous invasion.

Mr. Speaker, I do not know why the President feels, despite what our intelligence agencies are saying, that it is so important to pass a resolution of this magnitude this week and why it is necessary to go forward without the support of the United Nations and our major allies including those who are fighting side by side with us in the war on terrorism.

But I do feel that as a part of this process, the President is ignoring some of the most pressing economic issues affecting the well-being of ordinary Americans. There has been virtually no public discussion about the stock market's loss of trillions of dollars over the last few years and that millions of Americans have seen the retirement benefits for which they have worked their entire lives disappear. When are we going to address that issue? This country today has a $340 billion trade deficit, and we have lost 10 percent of our manufacturing jobs in the last 4 years, 2 million decent-paying jobs. The average American worker today is working longer hours for lower wages than 25 years ago. When are we going to address that issue?

Mr. Speaker, poverty in this country is increasing and median family income is declining. Throughout this country family farmers are being driven off of the land; and veterans, the people who put their lives on the line to defend us, are unable to get the health care and other benefits they were promised because of government underfunding. When are we going to tackle these issues and many other important issues that are of such deep concern to Americans?

Mr. Speaker, in the brief time I have, let me give five reasons why I am opposed to giving the President a blank check to launch a unilateral invasion and occupation of Iraq and why I will vote against this resolution. One, I have not heard any estimates of how many young American men and women might die in such a war or how many tens of thousands of women and children in Iraq might also be killed. As a caring Nation, we should do everything we can to prevent the horrible suffering that a war will cause. War must be the last recourse in international relations, not the first. Second, I am deeply concerned about the precedent that a unilateral invasion of Iraq could establish in terms of international law and the role of the United Nations. If President Bush believes that the U.S. can go to war at any time against any nation, what moral or legal objection could our government raise if another country chose to do the same thing?

Third, the United States is now involved in a very difficult war against international terrorism as we learned tragically on September 11. We are opposed by Osama bin Laden and religious fanatics who are prepared to engage in a kind of warfare that we have never experienced before. I agree with Brent Scowcroft, Republican former National Security Advisor for President George Bush, Sr., who stated, ``An attack on Iraq at this time would seriously jeopardize, if not destroy, the global counterterrorist campaign we have undertaken.''

Fourth, at a time when this country has a $6 trillion national debt and a growing deficit, we should be clear that a war and a long-term American occupation ofIraq could be extremely expensive.

Fifth, I am concerned about the problems of so-called unintended consequences. Who will govern Iraq when Saddam Hussein is removed and what role will the U.S. play in ensuing a civil war that could develop in that country? Will moderate governments in the region who have large Islamic fundamentalist populations be overthrown and replaced by extremists? Will the bloody conflict between Israel and the Palestinian Authority be exacerbated? And these are just a few of the questions that remain unanswered.

If a unilateral American invasion of Iraq is not the best approach, what should we do? In my view, the U.S. must work with the United Nations to make certain within clearly defined timelines that the U.N. inspectors are allowed to do their jobs. These inspectors should undertake an unfettered search for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and destroy them when found, pursuant to past U.N. resolutions. If Iraq resists inspection and elimination of stockpiled weapons, we should stand ready to assist the U.N. in forcing compliance.

Yes, Bernie was 100% correct. For the record, I also was very much against the invasion. And I think that I agreed with most of what Bernie said above. Unfortunately, Bernster and I were in the minority back then.
 
Very much agreed. The Iraq war and it's aftermath are a big reason why I've permanently moved away from the republicans. The American public did support the invasion. Now I do believe that most simply wanted a brutal dictator removed from office. Bush and the republicans deserve severe blame for the invasion for the falsely claiming Iraq sponsored Bin Laden and had weapons of mass destruction; and the terrible implementation of the invasion and it's occupation.
-

I recall many people protesting against the invasions of Afghanistan and then Iraq at the time. I also recall it being Bush and his cronies pushing the war and people on Fox News saying you shouldn't question your president, equating it with being a traitor. Fun times.

Well, understandably the protests against the Iraq invasion were much greater than against the Afgan invasion. The tragic of it is that I think that Gore would have invaded Afghanistan and destroyed Al Queda. The difference is that I don't think that he would have invaded Iraq. We would have stopped at Afghanistan. Clearly Afghanistan was as screwed up country as any in the ME, but we had UN support there. Bush was a terrible president. I think that Trump will be far worse.
 
As if war and no war were the only choices. Here was Bernie Sanders on the subject. He was correct:

Yes, Bernie was 100% correct. For the record, I also was very much against the invasion. And I think that I agreed with most of what Bernie said above. Unfortunately, Bernster and I were in the minority back then.

We don't live in an Athenian democracy where all citizens are expected to be intellectually elite representatives, super informed on policy. Instead we pay people to do that.
 
Yes, Bernie was 100% correct. For the record, I also was very much against the invasion. And I think that I agreed with most of what Bernie said above. Unfortunately, Bernster and I were in the minority back then.

We don't live in an Athenian democracy where all citizens are expected to be intellectually elite representatives, super informed on policy. Instead we pay people to do that.

Gaaddddd Dammmit! You caught me. I had forgotten that don't live in an Athenian democracy. You must be right, HRC is 100% responsible for all deaths in Iraq. But I'm getting bored. I'm done with this thread.
 
Very much agreed. The Iraq war and it's aftermath are a big reason why I've permanently moved away from the republicans. The American public did support the invasion. Now I do believe that most simply wanted a brutal dictator removed from office. Bush and the republicans deserve severe blame for the invasion for the falsely claiming Iraq sponsored Bin Laden and had weapons of mass destruction; and the terrible implementation of the invasion and it's occupation.
-

I recall many people protesting against the invasions of Afghanistan and then Iraq at the time. I also recall it being Bush and his cronies pushing the war and people on Fox News saying you shouldn't question your president, equating it with being a traitor. Fun times.

I was one of them, which is why I am raising an eyebrow at this "the American people" stuff. I don't remember us getting a vote on it, or even being much listened to about it.
 
That seems like a good reason.:rolleyes:
Well, marginally better than electing her because she is a woman.
856525

Well somebody is jealous of Bill.

Your day will come, probably from a catalogue but it will come.
 
I recall many people protesting against the invasions of Afghanistan and then Iraq at the time. I also recall it being Bush and his cronies pushing the war and people on Fox News saying you shouldn't question your president, equating it with being a traitor. Fun times.

I was one of them, which is why I am raising an eyebrow at this "the American people" stuff. I don't remember us getting a vote on it, or even being much listened to about it.

Ravensky: I did say that the people responsible for the Iraq invasion were the people who implemented (Bush). My point is that I think that as Americans we need to take a look in the mirror. There is a large segment of Americans that love conflict and sending our troops overseas. We are a militaristic society. Here's a question: Trump has clearly stated several times that when elected, he will bomb the families of Jihadists. If he gets elected, would you not say that we Americans have some responsibility for these war crimes?
 
The ongoing effort to point out that then-Senator Hillary Clinton voted for the war is an attempt to shift blame off of the people who actually ordered the invasion. Did she vote in favor of the use of force? Absolutely. Did John Kerry? Yep.
Those who "actually ordered the invasion" have been out of office for 8 years at least and are not standing for election today. Hillary is. Hence the focus on her is fair and justified.

Yet lost in the rush to blame Clinton, Kerry, and the other Democrats in the Senate is the fact that every single Republican Senator also voted in favor. And all the Republicans in the Executive Branch were hell-bent on turning that vote into an invasion.
How many of those Republican Senators even ran for presidency in 2016? I think only Santorum and Graham and they failed to get any traction whatsoever.
 
Those who "actually ordered the invasion" have been out of office for 8 years at least and are not standing for election today. Hillary is. Hence the focus on her is fair and justified.

Yet lost in the rush to blame Clinton, Kerry, and the other Democrats in the Senate is the fact that every single Republican Senator also voted in favor. And all the Republicans in the Executive Branch were hell-bent on turning that vote into an invasion.
How many of those Republican Senators even ran for presidency in 2016? I think only Santorum and Graham and they failed to get any traction whatsoever.

Fair enough. However, Trump also supported the US invasion of Iraq.
 
We don't live in an Athenian democracy where all citizens are expected to be intellectually elite representatives, super informed on policy. Instead we pay people to do that.

Gaaddddd Dammmit! You caught me. I had forgotten that don't live in an Athenian democracy. You must be right, HRC is 100% responsible for all deaths in Iraq. But I'm getting bored. I'm done with this thread.

At some point in the future, the American people may want bloodthirsty revenge against a hard to see enemy, like after these near 100 deaths in Nice on Bastille Day. We may want to nuke Tunis or nuke all of Fallujah. Calmer heads will tell us no and they'll be right.

By the way, though, your poll showing 70% support was AFTER war was declared. I had told you that the majority only supported war ON CONDITION that the UN approved such war. Here is evidence of my claim:
With a war against Iraq perhaps days away, Americans are backing President Bush but remain split over launching an attack without United Nations support, a USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll shows.
By a 2-to-1 ratio, Americans favor invading Iraq with U.S. ground troops to remove Saddam Hussein from power. Not since November 2001 have they approved so overwhelmingly. Nearly six in 10 say they're ready for such an invasion "in the next week or two."

But that support drops off if the U.N. backing being sought by the United States, Britain and Spain Monday is not obtained. If the U.N. Security Council rejects a resolution paving the way for military action, only 54% of Americans favor a U.S. invasion. And if the Bush administration does not seek a final Security Council vote, support for a war drops to 47%.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-16-poll-iraq_x.htm

Hillary Clinton's constituents in New York would have been slightly less inclined to support the war than the general populace.
 
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I was one of them, which is why I am raising an eyebrow at this "the American people" stuff. I don't remember us getting a vote on it, or even being much listened to about it.

Ravensky: I did say that the people responsible for the Iraq invasion were the people who implemented (Bush). My point is that I think that as Americans we need to take a look in the mirror. There is a large segment of Americans that love conflict and sending our troops overseas. We are a militaristic society. Here's a question: Trump has clearly stated several times that when elected, he will bomb the families of Jihadists. If he gets elected, would you not say that we Americans have some responsibility for these war crimes?

The Americans that voted for an egomaniac like Trump, certainly. I'm not too keen on collective guilt.
 
Gaaddddd Dammmit! You caught me. I had forgotten that don't live in an Athenian democracy. You must be right, HRC is 100% responsible for all deaths in Iraq. But I'm getting bored. I'm done with this thread.

At some point in the future, the American people may want bloodthirsty revenge against a hard to see enemy, like after these near 100 deaths in Nice on Bastille Day. We may want to nuke Tunis or nuke all of Fallujah. Calmer heads will tell us no and they'll be right.

By the way, though, your poll showing 70% support was AFTER war was declared. I had told you that the majority only supported war ON CONDITION that the UN approved such war. Here is evidence of my claim:
With a war against Iraq perhaps days away, Americans are backing President Bush but remain split over launching an attack without United Nations support, a USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll shows.
By a 2-to-1 ratio, Americans favor invading Iraq with U.S. ground troops to remove Saddam Hussein from power. Not since November 2001 have they approved so overwhelmingly. Nearly six in 10 say they're ready for such an invasion "in the next week or two."

But that support drops off if the U.N. backing being sought by the United States, Britain and Spain Monday is not obtained. If the U.N. Security Council rejects a resolution paving the way for military action, only 54% of Americans favor a U.S. invasion. And if the Bush administration does not seek a final Security Council vote, support for a war drops to 47%.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-16-poll-iraq_x.htm

Hillary Clinton's constituents in New York would have been slightly less inclined to support the war than the general populace.

I will have to find the link to the article again, too, but even the congresscritters (on both sides of the aisle) that voted to give Bush the authority to declare war in Iraq, did so on the explicit promise that he would only use said authority if/when all diplomatic and UN efforts had been exhausted.

I will give Bernie tons of credit for not trusting the Bush administration to keep their promise and for voting his conscience; but I think portraying any of the congress people as voting "for the Iraq invasion" is doing reality a disservice in absence of other evidence that they were war-mongering before the vote.
 
I will give Bernie tons of credit for not trusting the Bush administration to keep their promise and for voting his conscience...

Not trying to argue...From my reading of his discussion in the congressional record, he displayed more logic than emotion. Sure, his logic was applied to decisions based on moral values, but his speech was about his own due diligence--that he'd have to have the proper analysis of the consequences before approving such a thing: impact to the economy long-term and financial costs, estimates of deaths, the precedent [remember the partisan hacks at the National Review at the time were calling W the Unitary Executive], would it radicalize more terrorists, revolutions in Arab countries. Consequences of actions are something each member of Congress (both houses) should analyze, especially for war.
 
I will give Bernie tons of credit for not trusting the Bush administration to keep their promise and for voting his conscience...

Not trying to argue...From my reading of his discussion in the congressional record, he displayed more logic than emotion. Sure, his logic was applied to decisions based on moral values, but his speech was about his own due diligence--that he'd have to have the proper analysis of the consequences before approving such a thing: impact to the economy long-term and financial costs, estimates of deaths, the precedent [remember the partisan hacks at the National Review at the time were calling W the Unitary Executive], would it radicalize more terrorists, revolutions in Arab countries. Consequences of actions are something each member of Congress (both houses) should analyze, especially for war.

even better, in my opinion :D

(I was not disagreeing with your earlier post either, btw - in case it came across that way. I actually agree with that post and was just adding to it)
 
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