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Ezra Klein on Yes means Yes

repoman

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http://www.vox.com/2014/10/13/6966847/yes-means-yes-is-a-terrible-bill-and-i-completely-support-it

Guess which member is gonna have an aneurysm about the quoted section. In this case he will be right.

For that reason, the law is only worth the paper it's written on if some of the critics' fears come true. Critics worry that colleges will fill with cases in which campus boards convict young men (and, occasionally, young women) of sexual assault for genuinely ambiguous situations. Sadly, that's necessary for the law's success. It's those cases — particularly the ones that feel genuinely unclear and maybe even unfair, the ones that become lore in frats and cautionary tales that fathers e-mail to their sons — that will convince men that they better Be Pretty Damn Sure.
 
Yeah! Destroying innocent people's lives to maybe make some vague and nonspecific point sometime in the future!

Go freedom!
 
As it turns out the accused having rights is very inconvenient.

We need to stop showing Gideon's Trumpet in middle school.
 
two college seniors who've been in a loving relationship since they met during the first week of their freshman years, and who, with the ease of the committed, slip naturally from cuddling to sex, could fail its test.The article boils down to the ends justify the means.

The law is open to significantly varying interpretation. The standard for intoxication is left unspecified by the law, and the standard for affirmative consent is defined in terms which are largely subjective.

Klein is confused about the affirmative consent standard. He relabels this law as the "You Better Be Pretty Damn Sure she said yes" law. Which illustrates the fact that some people think that affirmative consent entails express consent. That is not a reasonable standard to hold people to, regardless of their age or sexual experience, and such an interpretation is not consistent with the wording of the law, which allows for obvious non-verbal consent. It is also contradictory to the fact that even an express Yes does not actually mean Yes when the person is intoxicated, according to whatever standard the students' university chooses.

He is also wrong that "two college seniors who've been in a loving relationship since they met during the first week of their freshman years, and who, with the ease of the committed, slip naturally from cuddling to sex, could fail its test," because is it damned near impossible to slip from cuddling to sex without obvious consent from both parties.
 
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I wonder how he would feel if some right winger said we need to throw a few Muslims in jail without proper due process so as to teach the Muslim community as a whole a lesson not to be violent.
 
Yeah! Destroying innocent people's lives to maybe make some vague and nonspecific point sometime in the future!

Go freedom!

Oh my god, this is so true. Can't people see that it is obviously better to destroy thousands of innocent women's lives than tens of innocent men's toward a better future? How can people be so short-sighted! How can they be so warped as to put any value on the women when men's sex lives are at stake? ~smh~ Men are not going to be able to pick up on this new program quickly - not without actual jail time - don't they know that? Men are just not capable of learning about being damn sure. And these people are willing to throw away a few completely normally nonempathetic men when all that's at stake is thousands of women? :sadyes:
 
Thousands, really? Actually, the motto of these laws seems to be "it's better to expel 100 innocent men than to risk a single rapist roaming the campus". :rolleyes:
Also, it's not "yes means yes" but rather "yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes might mean yes but only if she had nothing to drink".
 
Any law is more effective with voluntary compliance. I think Klein is saying is that he expects voluntary compliance to occur through that rather unpleasant process in his quote. Which is a rather telling commentary on US society (if his view is accurate). It is not clear to me that Klein is endorsing that methodology towards voluntary compliance.
 
And these people are willing to throw away a few completely normally nonempathetic men when all that's at stake is thousands of women? :sadyes:
Firstly, you shouldn't assume that only men who lack empathy will be punished in ambiguous circumstances.

Secondly, just because someone lacks empathy* does not mean that they deserve to be punished for putting themselves into a situation that may or may not be a violation of university rules, depending on how those rules are interpreted.

*This includes people on the autism spectrum.

Lastly, there is no reason why this law has to be a trade-off between inflicting suffering of one kind on a given number of men versus suffering of a different kind on a given number of women. The government should have provided more detailed guidelines for establishing consent; instead there is still no consensus on what qualifies as consent and what qualifies as too drunk.
 
Lastly, there is no reason why this law has to be a trade-off between inflicting suffering of one kind on a given number of men versus suffering of a different kind on a given number of women. The government should have provided more detailed guidelines for establishing consent; instead there is still no consensus on what qualifies as consent and what qualifies as too drunk.

Exactly. You don't need to fight one wrong with another wrong. There's not some kind of a lack of people who rape and assault others in a completely unambiguous manner and the hammer can be brought down hard on those ones if the goal is to create an object lesson for future groups of students to become wary of. Creating more innocent victims, however, is not a viable strategy for trying to help innocent victims.
 
Lastly, there is no reason why this law has to be a trade-off between inflicting suffering of one kind on a given number of men versus suffering of a different kind on a given number of women. The government should have provided more detailed guidelines for establishing consent; instead there is still no consensus on what qualifies as consent and what qualifies as too drunk.

Exactly. You don't need to fight one wrong with another wrong. There's not some kind of a lack of people who rape and assault others in a completely unambiguous manner and the hammer can be brought down hard on those ones if the goal is to create an object lesson for future groups of students to become wary of. Creating more innocent victims, however, is not a viable strategy for trying to help innocent victims.

Nonsense. People who think accused murderers are entitled to rights obviously support murder. People who think accused terrorists are entitled to rights obviously support terrorism.
 
If there was one dominate moral component to 20th century liberalism it had to be the elevation of an individual's democratic and judicial process rights to that of equal importance to a person's explicit liberty rights. During this era newly invented Miranda rights, privacy rights, rights protection against unreasonable searches, voting process rights, rights to legal counsel, and many other democratic process and "judicial due process" rights were established as paramount over the primal desire to 'getting the guilty' - so much so that the guilty sometimes remained unconvicted if the prosecutorial authorities even inadvertently violated these protections.

And some may recall there were those well meaning conservatives, as well as reactionaries, who were appalled that in order for "one innocent man" to go free "a hundred should be released" . The most extreme among them, George Wallace, Lester Maddox, Bull Connor, and membership of the American Nazi party just didn't get it - no one's ends justified any means. You see, everyone in every group had due process rights, including "Negros", Nazi Party members, and young civil rights workers.

But as Klein has also demonstrated, there has always been another, more radical strain of left thinking (a mirror of the reactionary right) - the old Leninist belief that one does not achieve social transformation by paying attention "liberal" moralities - like the reactionaries, the radical left believed one's social ends actually do justify any authoritarian means because in order to cook the guilty plutocrats, negroes, or campus males one must be willing to "break a few eggs."

And Klein is not alone in this view. The shift by the left from its historical defense of the rights of the common person, to advocacy for the identity group in the 1980s nurtured this pseudo-religious obsession, the need to find and behead the gender or race oppressor - only now, it is not the aristocrats needing beheaded but the unruly mass of campus males sharing the XY gene.

So what if a generation of males need be sacrificed, he implies sanctimoniously, against the justice of building "new men", contrite and brought to heel by feminism? Why let obstacles like "due process" get in the way of the lavish use of campus inquisitions, gender tribunals, and metaphorical guillotines ? "Blood" must be spilled to make progress.

Its sad that the feminist left (and their male fellow-travelers and part-time apologists) have betrayed their liberal roots - perhaps a few of them need be reminded of basic due process their ideological ancestors once demanded:

“(Due Process) embodies a system of rights based on moral principles so deeply imbedded in the traditions and feelings of our people as to be deemed fundamental to a civilized society as conceived by our whole history. Due Process is that which comports with the deepest notions of what is fair and right and just.”1 The content of due process is “a historical product”2 that traces all the way back to chapter 39 of Magna Carta, in which King John promised that “[n]o free man shall be taken or imprisoned or disseized or exiled or in any way destroyed, nor will we go upon him nor send upon him, except by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.”3 The phrase “due process of law” first appeared in a statutory rendition of this chapter in 1354....

http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/amdt5bfrag1_user.html

Sigh, one would have thought we made progress since the 13th century.
 
I was jesting in reaction to this part:

klein said:
It's those cases — particularly the ones that feel genuinely unclear and maybe even unfair, the ones that become lore in frats and cautionary tales that fathers e-mail to their sons — that will convince men that they better Be Pretty Damn Sure.

That it's "these cases" that will create the lesson, not the stories of rapes that will create the lesson. Because apparently stories of actual rapes do not become frat lore or cautionary e-mails from dads.
 
Yes, of course. Because the natural reaction to a process that is manifestly unjust is that everyone rushes to comply with it and support it. We'd never encourage a culture whereby no one, not even the victim, can report a rape, or support an allegation of rape for fear of being blamed for throwing someone to the mercy of process that deliberately sets out to ruin the guilty and the innocent alike.
 
Chait against Klein. I thought these guys were supposed to coordinate:


Critics worry that colleges will fill with cases in which campus boards convict young men (and, occasionally, young women) of sexual assault for genuinely ambiguous situations. Sadly, that's necessary for the law's success. It's those cases — particularly the ones that feel genuinely unclear and maybe even unfair, the ones that become lore in frats and cautionary tales that fathers e-mail to their sons — that will convince men that they better Be Pretty Damn Sure.

Read that passage again. He is not merely arguing that, to make an omelette, one must break some eggs. He is arguing for false convictions as a conscious strategy in order to strike fear into the innocent. This is a conception of justice totally removed from the liberal tradition.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/10/does-liberalism-have-an-answer-to-campus-rape.html
 
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