Ezra Klein on Yes means Yes

[laughing dog]

I intended my posts to be read as written. Apparently, you were or are unable to distinguish between relative comparisons (X is worse than Y) and absolute comparisons (X is okay). Your belief is predicated on poor reasoning.

I suggest that you read more carefully.

You very clearly implied that expulsion is not a big deal in comparison to imprisonment.

I did not imply that - I explicitly wrote it. But that is not same thing saying or implying that "expulsion is okay".

 

[Emily Lake]

Well, expulsion is clearly not a big deal in comparison to imprisonment.

Please explain how expulsion is not a big deal in comparison to imprisonment.

More specifically, please explain how expulsion, which very feasibly prevents a great many people from attaining a degree, which in turn prohibits them from being eligible for a great many careers and locks them in to predominantly low-paying jobs... is no big deal compared to imprisonment, which (depending on the crime committed) still allows the person access to higher education and decent jobs.

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I suggest that you read more carefully.

You very clearly implied that expulsion is not a big deal in comparison to imprisonment.

I did not imply that - I explicitly wrote it. But that is not same thing saying or implying that "expulsion is okay".

Which I did not claim you said.

 

[ksen]

Follow up to the Atlantic article I posted in here yesterday.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/10/the-traffic-laws-of-sexual-culture/381704/

A lot of good responses to the letter from Anonymous.

 

[KeepTalking]

Please explain how expulsion is not a big deal in comparison to imprisonment.

More specifically, please explain how expulsion, which very feasibly prevents a great many people from attaining a degree, which in turn prohibits them from being eligible for a great many careers and locks them in to predominantly low-paying jobs... is no big deal compared to imprisonment, which (depending on the crime committed) still allows the person access to higher education and decent jobs.

Imprisonment entails the loss of freedom and rights. Expulsion entails only the loss of ability to further obtain a degree from a single educational institution. Expulsion does not prohibit the expelled from accessing higher education, it only prohibits that person from accessing the educational institution from which they were expelled. They would still have the ability to access higher education from a variety of other educational institutions. The imprisoned would, at best, have access to higher education from a single institution. Anyone who is imprisoned, who happens to also be a student at a college or university to which this law would apply, would assuredly also be expelled from that educational institution. Therefor, it should be obvious that imprisonment is the bigger deal.

 

[Emily Lake]

Please explain how expulsion is not a big deal in comparison to imprisonment.

More specifically, please explain how expulsion, which very feasibly prevents a great many people from attaining a degree, which in turn prohibits them from being eligible for a great many careers and locks them in to predominantly low-paying jobs... is no big deal compared to imprisonment, which (depending on the crime committed) still allows the person access to higher education and decent jobs.

Imprisonment entails the loss of freedom and rights. Expulsion entails only the loss of ability to further obtain a degree from a single educational institution. Expulsion does not prohibit the expelled from accessing higher education, it only prohibits that person from accessing the educational institution from which they were expelled. They would still have the ability to access higher education from a variety of other educational institutions. The imprisoned would, at best, have access to higher education from a single institution. Anyone who is imprisoned, who happens to also be a student at a college or university to which this law would apply, would assuredly also be expelled from that educational institution. Therefor, it should be obvious that imprisonment is the bigger deal.

I mentioned earlier that expulsion carries with it loss of scholarships and in most cases financial aid. For a great many people, they cannot afford to relocate to attend another school. Many people attend state schools because those are the ones that they can afford. Loss of financial aid and scholarships, then, essentially guarantees loss of access to higher education for a very large number of people.

I do not believe that imprisonment necessitates expulsion. It may depend on the length of imprisonment, as well as the type of crime. I know a handful of people who spent short amounts of time in prison for misdemeanor drug charges while in college, who were not expelled, and whose college performance was not affected at all.

If you are intending to refer specifically to imprisonment for rape, then it might be the case that it would prompt expulsion. But it might also be the case that if the rape were not of a fellow student and did not occur on campus, or were not related to the school, it may not prompt expulsion. I simply do not know. But in general, I was not intending to refer to imprisonment explicitly and solely for rape, but imprisonment in general.

 

[laughing dog]

Please explain how expulsion is not a big deal in comparison to imprisonment.

More specifically, please explain how expulsion, which very feasibly prevents a great many people from attaining a degree, which in turn prohibits them from being eligible for a great many careers and locks them in to predominantly low-paying jobs... is no big deal compared to imprisonment, which (depending on the crime committed) still allows the person access to higher education and decent jobs.

I already explained that your fears are over-blown. Being imprisoned for rape is worse than being expelled from a school. One can usually find another school (especially in this climate where almost every school is worried about enrollments). Privacy concerns may prevent the expelling school from listing the separation as an "expulsion".

Which I did not claim you said.

You did write "You did seem to be saying that since it wasn't imprisonment, then it's just fine, no big deal because, hey, it could be worse!".

 

[Emily Lake]

I already explained that your fears are over-blown. Being imprisoned for rape is worse than being expelled from a school. One can usually find another school (especially in this climate where almost every school is worried about enrollments). Privacy concerns may prevent the expelling school from listing the separation as an "expulsion".

Yes indeed. You "explained" it by completely ignoring the loss of scholarships and financial aid, and completely ignoring that a very great number of people don't have the means to move to another location for school, nor to pay out of state tuition. So "find another school" is just as trite a dismissal as saying that a person working minimum wage in a rural town can always just "get another job" if they're dissatisfied with their employer. It's just as blindly oblivious as saying that someone who doesn't like the laws of their country can simply "move somewhere else". It's a thoughtless response that simply regurgitates your own preference and belief without actual thought for the complexities of the situation, and without consideration for other factors.

 

[laughing dog]

I already explained that your fears are over-blown. Being imprisoned for rape is worse than being expelled from a school. One can usually find another school (especially in this climate where almost every school is worried about enrollments). Privacy concerns may prevent the expelling school from listing the separation as an "expulsion".

Yes indeed. You "explained" it by completely ignoring the loss of scholarships and financial aid, and completely ignoring that a very great number of people don't have the means to move to another location for school, nor to pay out of state tuition.....

Most students do not have scholarships. Most financial "aid" is in the form of loans which students can get just about anywhere. And many areas have more than one schools. And there are online courses. If someone really has to have a specialized degree or some specialized "career", then they will move to find the program - otherwise they really don't want it. And, of course going to prison and surviving it generally reduces the scope of one's legal life choices upon release - especially if one is imprisoned for rape.

Would the results of a random survey of college students and ex-cons who are asked "Which would you prefer - expulsion from school for improper sexual conduct or imprisonment for rape?" convince you that your position is based purely on ignorance of the reality of imprisonment and the current higher education market?

 

[KeepTalking]

Imprisonment entails the loss of freedom and rights. Expulsion entails only the loss of ability to further obtain a degree from a single educational institution. Expulsion does not prohibit the expelled from accessing higher education, it only prohibits that person from accessing the educational institution from which they were expelled. They would still have the ability to access higher education from a variety of other educational institutions. The imprisoned would, at best, have access to higher education from a single institution. Anyone who is imprisoned, who happens to also be a student at a college or university to which this law would apply, would assuredly also be expelled from that educational institution. Therefor, it should be obvious that imprisonment is the bigger deal.

I mentioned earlier that expulsion carries with it loss of scholarships and in most cases financial aid. For a great many people, they cannot afford to relocate to attend another school. Many people attend state schools because those are the ones that they can afford. Loss of financial aid and scholarships, then, essentially guarantees loss of access to higher education for a very large number of people.

I do not believe that imprisonment necessitates expulsion.

It does.

It may depend on the length of imprisonment, as well as the type of crime. I know a handful of people who spent short amounts of time in prison for misdemeanor drug charges while in college, who were not expelled, and whose college performance was not affected at all.

Then that was not imprisonment, that was simply spending a couple of days in jail. No one is imprisoned for misdemeanor convictions, but they may spend time in jail after an arrest. It requires a felony conviction to be imprisoned, and such a conviction would also result in expulsion from any academic institution that would also be affected by this law. I have personal knowledge of this process.

 

[Emily Lake]

Yes indeed. You "explained" it by completely ignoring the loss of scholarships and financial aid, and completely ignoring that a very great number of people don't have the means to move to another location for school, nor to pay out of state tuition.....

Most students do not have scholarships. Most financial "aid" is in the form of loans which students can get just about anywhere. And many areas have more than one schools. And there are online courses. If someone really has to have a specialized degree or some specialized "career", then they will move to find the program - otherwise they really don't want it. And, of course going to prison and surviving it generally reduces the scope of one's legal life choices upon release - especially if one is imprisoned for rape.

Would the results of a random survey of college students and ex-cons who are asked "Which would you prefer - expulsion from school for improper sexual conduct or imprisonment for rape?" convince you that your position is based purely on ignorance of the reality of imprisonment and the current higher education market?

You keep narrowing the field, and now you're making the two very different in magnitude. As you have it written, you might as well ask whether they'd prefer expulsion for "general misbehavior" or imprisonment for "violent felonies". Why don't you even it up and ask whether they'd prefer:

• expulsion from school for improper sexual conduct or imprisonment for improper sexual conduct
• expulsion from school for rape or imprisonment for rape

I suspect you'd get two different answers to those questions.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

You keep narrowing the field, and now you're making the two very different in magnitude. As you have it written, you might as well ask whether they'd prefer expulsion for "general misbehavior" or imprisonment for "violent felonies". Why don't you even it up and ask whether they'd prefer:

• expulsion from school for improper sexual conduct or imprisonment for improper sexual conduct
• expulsion from school for rape or imprisonment for rape

I suspect you'd get two different answers to those questions.

I really don't get the line of argument that you're trying to make here.

How can you equate getting expelled with getting imprisoned? While expulsion isn't a minor thing and universities should have a decent standard of due process before kicking someone out, it's nothing compared to being thrown in prison in regards to the negative effects that it has on a person's life. Comparing the two is like comparing accidentally stabbing your finger when you're cutting vegetables and getting your leg hacked off with a chainsaw because they both involve you bleeding. They're really not in the same ballpark in terms of consequences.

 

[laughing dog]

Most students do not have scholarships. Most financial "aid" is in the form of loans which students can get just about anywhere. And many areas have more than one schools. And there are online courses. If someone really has to have a specialized degree or some specialized "career", then they will move to find the program - otherwise they really don't want it. And, of course going to prison and surviving it generally reduces the scope of one's legal life choices upon release - especially if one is imprisoned for rape.

Would the results of a random survey of college students and ex-cons who are asked "Which would you prefer - expulsion from school for improper sexual conduct or imprisonment for rape?" convince you that your position is based purely on ignorance of the reality of imprisonment and the current higher education market?

You keep narrowing the field, and now you're making the two very different in magnitude. As you have it written, you might as well ask whether they'd prefer expulsion for "general misbehavior" or imprisonment for "violent felonies". Why don't you even it up and ask whether they'd prefer:

• expulsion from school for improper sexual conduct or imprisonment for improper sexual conduct
• expulsion from school for rape or imprisonment for rape

I suspect you'd get two different answers to those questions.

If this thread is any indication, your suspicion is unique to you and only you.