Failed prophecy.

[steve_bank]

If you look at the Jesus in the gospels in the context of the geopolitics he was a Jewish prophet predicting the end not of the world but Israel. He was saying get it together go back to tradition or face destruction.

Jesus appears educated for his day. If had been out in the Roman empire the fall of Israel would have been an easy prediction.

From a book I read on the history of Israel it was said in ancient times it was common to have operatives go out and sow a prophesy. Followed of course by the appearance of the individual. It was used to reinforce the position of a local ruler.

 

[Learner]

Post Hoc, perhaps? The prophesy failed as predicted, now we need to find reasons why it failed in order to keep it alive and relevant?

You (plural) seemed to have cracked the understanding of the theology (in your eyes ) . I am intriguinly amazed (sic), which also applies to post #19 in which case I will also address. (browsing the forum this moment)

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'm pretty sure that every generation for the past 2000 years has been fairly sure that his return is just around the corner.

It reminds me of the scene in Restaurant At The End Of The Universe where there's that one cult there waiting for the return of Zarquon and the MC jokes with them about how he's almost out of time and then, with about ten seconds left before the universe ends, Zarquon runs in just to wave and say hi.

 

[Learner]

How did you (in general) determine the date /period that the prophesy should be fullfilled by?

It arguably doesn't matter. As best we can tell, from what appear to be the earliest writings (most notably but not only the Pauline epistles), the earliest Christians expected it imminently, during their lifetimes. They were wrong. The prophecy was wrong. And they were the earliest christians, so whatever beliefs came later, they were (and are) apparently non-original to Christianity. Allowing that there may also have been subsections of earliest Christianity (ie during the lifetime of those who lived while Jesus was alive) which did not have this belief, though these it seems, if they existed (and I don't believe there is much if any clear evidence for them) did not survive. At least we could say that the Christianity that exists today is based on a failed prophecy, because it is still in the texts.

As I was saying to the post by DBT ... your "belief" that the predictions were "wrong" is merely an opinion as YOU see it i.e. I do not agree with the interpretation as you think you see it in texts, that _basically_ gives you the notion; of the failed prophecy. In which case ... I'd wonder..which bit / actual verse(s) do you find (you can demonstrate), gives you that implication of "failed prophecy" so we can determine at least some logicial coherence from those verses , from our different, interpretive points of views. I know DBT posted a two verses and even if right ,to which I doubt his interpretation is correct.. does not "debunk" a whole scripture or revelation by these two verse, which is a misleading and false notion. Not something to soley rely on.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Where's the interpretation? Jesus said "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled". There's not a whole lot to interpret there, since it's a really straightforward statement.

That generation then passed without all of those things, including Jesus's return and all the other apocalyptic events, being fulfilled. I truly do not see how this can be viewed as anything other than a failure by Jesus to follow up on his prediction.

 

[Learner]

Where's the interpretation? Jesus said "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled". There's not a whole lot to interpret there, since it's a really straightforward statement.

That generation then passed without all of those things, including Jesus's return and all the other apocalyptic events, being fulfilled. I truly do not see how this can be viewed as anything other than a failure by Jesus to follow up on his prediction.

There are counter examples :

Mine is: If Jesus is talking of the future, a prediction (the fallen temple 70.A.D. for example is one ) then this generation is the generation of that time ...in the future.

This generation (in the future ) is going to see great wonders in the rugby world cup in October 2019.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So, REALLY what he meant to say was "Verily I say unto people who come 200 generations after you, you guys listening to me, THAT generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".

Do you have any support for this interpretation? Any reason to think this is what was MEANT by the author, or are you just making this up to preserve the prophecy despite all rational readings of the words?

 

[Learner]

So, REALLY what he meant to say was "Verily I say unto people who come 200 generations after you, you guys listening to me, THAT generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".

Do you have any support for this interpretation? Any reason to think this is what was MEANT by the author, or are you just making this up to preserve the prophecy despite all rational readings of the words?

I am curious how "simply" you take to the likes of DBT's interpretation .

You (plural) have to ALSO include (to balance) things that have come to pass (at least coincide with events),... that HAS been predicted. DBT has weighed in a mere 2 verses on the scales, and has somehow found: that these mere two verse has become somewhat heavier in weight than the rest of the whole bible, and henceforth to the notion... this debunks prophecy?

(been there , done that ...changed my mind)

 

[Keith&Co.]

You (plural) have to ALSO include (to balance) things that have come to pass,...

No, we really don't.
The point of prophecy is proving that you have access to divine knowledge. God is not presented as being 75%-scient, or almost-scient, but Omniscient. So, any one failure bodes very badly for a narrative with an omniscient character in the plot, nu?

So if the authors are right about 30% or 75% or whatever, but not 100%, then it's just a matter of guessing really, really well.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Where's the interpretation? Jesus said "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled". There's not a whole lot to interpret there, since it's a really straightforward statement.

That generation then passed without all of those things, including Jesus's return and all the other apocalyptic events, being fulfilled. I truly do not see how this can be viewed as anything other than a failure by Jesus to follow up on his prediction.

There are counter examples :

Mine is: If Jesus is talking of the future, a prediction (the fallen temple 70.A.D. for example is one ) then this generation is the generation of that time ...in the future.

This generation (in the future ) is going to see great wonders in the rugby world cup in October 2019.

That doesn't make any sense. He was talking to a group of people about future events and then ... addressed the crowd in those future events?

I've heard some weak apologetics in my day and this is one you need to put a lot more effort into.

 

[Learner]

You (plural) have to ALSO include (to balance) things that have come to pass,...

No, we really don't.
The point of prophecy is proving that you have access to divine knowledge. God is not presented as being 75%-scient, or almost-scient, but Omniscient. So, any one failure bodes very badly for a narrative with an omniscient character in the plot, nu?

So if the authors are right about 30% or 75% or whatever, but not 100%, then it's just a matter of guessing really, really well.

Then (disagreeing with your above ) let us take to our different povs ... since we do anyway. You take the 30% and I'll take the 75% , my guess is 25% guess (which is what I sort of think anyway). Who is then closer to the prophecy being fullfilled (in view and personal opinion only of the 30% versus 75%) ?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Then let us take different povs ... since we do anyway. You take the 30% and I'll take the 75% (which is what I think anyway). Who is then closer to the prophecy being fullfilled?

Dude, it's not a game show.
You don't accrue prophecy points to buy your interpretations.

Your claim that it is a prophecy that's yet to be fulfilled flies in the face of what scripture actually says. calling it an individual point of view, or a differing interpretation is just desperate revisionism.

The prophecy WAS NOT FULLFILLED. If it's a prophecy for the future, you need more support than just saying 'that's what I think when I read something completely different.'

 

[Learner]

What I am trying to say here is: The arguments is literally based on the bible ,which is just: merely an interpretation. I personally see many arguments regarding the scripture imo to be: quite "flawed" (non-biblical) especially when the bible is clear on the contexts to various verses like the examples of those mentioned in previous posts. This also applies (and contradicts) the incorrect (so-called) alternative Christian preachings e.g. false doctirnes and preachings.

My take_as according to the gospel of Jesus is as the saying goes:
There is :

NO Rabbi ... NO Pope... NO Bishop ...etc..etc.!


In my case: I was more associated to being a "Puritan" but a reformed one of sorts, you could say! (Funny .. many think me a Catholic). I am still a brother with Catholics ... in Christ ALONE.... As well as anyone else "in Christ"...... regardless of denomination!!

 

[DBT]

Post Hoc, perhaps? The prophesy failed as predicted, now we need to find reasons why it failed in order to keep it alive and relevant?

You (plural) seemed to have cracked the understanding of the theology (in your eyes ) . I am intriguinly amazed (sic), which also applies to post #19 in which case I will also address. (browsing the forum this moment)

It has nothing to do with what I believe.

The predicated event is described in the text by the narrative and a timeline is promised, the described event is said to happen within the lifetime of that generation.

Did it happen as described and promised? It did not.

 

[ruby sparks]

... your "belief" that the predictions were "wrong" is merely an opinion as YOU see it i.e. I do not agree with the interpretation as you think you see it in texts, that _basically_ gives you the notion; of the failed prophecy. In which case ... I'd wonder..which bit / actual verse(s) do you find (you can demonstrate), gives you that implication of "failed prophecy" so we can determine at least some logicial coherence from those verses , from our different, interpretive points of views.

1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 13-17.

 

[Learner]

It has nothing to do with what I believe.

The predicated event is described in the text by the narrative and a timeline is promised, the described event is said to happen within the lifetime of that generation.

Did it happen as described and promised? It did not.

It has EVERYTHING to do with belief of an interpretation of texts....simple as... your atheistic belief the texts MEANS this ...

 

[Learner]

... your "belief" that the predictions were "wrong" is merely an opinion as YOU see it i.e. I do not agree with the interpretation as you think you see it in texts, that _basically_ gives you the notion; of the failed prophecy. In which case ... I'd wonder..which bit / actual verse(s) do you find (you can demonstrate), gives you that implication of "failed prophecy" so we can determine at least some logicial coherence from those verses , from our different, interpretive points of views.

1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 13-17.

I see the text but what is the argument witin the texts or what is it, that you find in the text that troubles you (in context) ... to discuss, to be precise, so that I can perhaps answer or reply accordingly?

 

[ruby sparks]

... your "belief" that the predictions were "wrong" is merely an opinion as YOU see it i.e. I do not agree with the interpretation as you think you see it in texts, that _basically_ gives you the notion; of the failed prophecy. In which case ... I'd wonder..which bit / actual verse(s) do you find (you can demonstrate), gives you that implication of "failed prophecy" so we can determine at least some logicial coherence from those verses , from our different, interpretive points of views.

1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 13-17.

I see the text but what is the argument witin the texts or what is it, that you find in the text that troubles you (in context) ... to discuss, to be precise, so that I can perhaps answer or reply accordingly?

It's not troubling me? Why would you think it's troubling me?

Look, seriously Learner. Never mind. It's in the texts. Clearly. The Thessalonian Christians were expecting the end times or whatever during their lifetime, were concerned that some of them had died without it happening, and Paul was reassuring them that it would, in their lifetime.

 

[Learner]

It's not troubling me? Why would you think it's troubling me?

Look, seriously Learner. Never mind. It's in the texts. Clearly. The Thessalonian Christians were expecting the end times or whatever during their lifetime, were concerned that some of them had died without it happening, and Paul was reassuring them that it would, in their lifetime.

Ah ok but I would think, they would KNOW that it is supposed to happen... ONLY as according to the sequence of prophesied events as "layed out" in revelation. This obviously would be an indication to "some" as the end times.

 

[DBT]

It has nothing to do with what I believe.

The predicated event is described in the text by the narrative and a timeline is promised, the described event is said to happen within the lifetime of that generation.

Did it happen as described and promised? It did not.

It has EVERYTHING to do with belief of an interpretation of texts....simple as... your atheistic belief the texts MEANS this ...

What is there to misinterpret? When the narrative states 'this generation shall not pass,' what else can it mean? Thousands of years in the future?