Faith is believing something that you know isnt true.

[no-one-particular]

Faith is believing something that you know isnt true.

Con men (confidence men) use this ability to swindle naive people who don't even realize that such a thing is possible.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't think it's the case that they know it isn't true. They honestly believe that they know it is true. If the evidence doesn't support this, they feel it's because we don't know all the evidence and something new will come to light eventually to show how they'd been right all along.

Faith is coming to a conclusion before there is justification for that conclusion, sure, but that's entirely different from believing something the don't think there's any justification for at all.

 

[steve_bank]

Faith is something reinforced by observation. I have faith that other than a failure a jet will always work. It can not be proven that a jet in good working order will always fly.

From what I have seen, religious faith is reinforced by obsevation of the theolgy playing out. They see god in what goes on. So it is not a beloef in something they know is false. For many it is noy just a belief, they live a reality of god, angels, and devils.

 

[Copernicus]

Faith is believing something that you know isnt true.

It is belief that is not backed up by proof or evidence. What you have faith in may or may not be true. It certainly is not belief in something that "one knows is not true".

Con men (confidence men) use this ability to swindle naive people who don't even realize that such a thing is possible.

I think that one should make a distinction between trust and faith. Most of us trust information that we get from people whom we believe to be reliable. Most of us have never done the math or the science to back up most of the the claims made by scientists, but we still generally trust them to make claims about their subject matter that are true most of the time. That is because scientists can usually explain in great detail what leads them to their conclusions. In principle, they can verify what scientists claim. Worshipers also trust religious authorities, but not in the same way. They do not expect those authorities to make claims that they can verify. Religious faith develops from community pressure and a set of learned faith-maintenance rituals (prayer, sacrifice, worship services, devotional activities such as fasting, etc.).

 

[bilby]

If only faith really was belief in something people knew was untrue. It would be a fantastic research tool - just ask people what they believe on faith, reverse it, and voila - new facts!

Unfortunately, faith is just belief in something that cannot be shown to be true. I believe that you just drew the eight of clubs from a deck of cards. I might be right. I might be wrong. If I never find out what card it was, it's a good bet (51/52) that I am wrong. But, sadly, it's not a certainty - there's a 1/52 chance that I am right, by pure luck.

 

[Treedbear]

... Worshipers also trust religious authorities, but not in the same way. They do not expect those authorities to make claims that they can verify. Religious faith develops from community pressure and a set of learned faith-maintenance rituals (prayer, sacrifice, worship services, devotional activities such as fasting, etc.).

This is another example of theists taking a perfectly good and useful word and redefining it until it becomes useless. Real faith is based on some type of evidence. This even applies to religious faith as practiced. One's trust in a God is often (I think) faith in the advice of one's community based on one's learned reliance in general matters. But religions teach that faith needs to be strong enough to resist doubt and contrary evidence. That means that having lots of faith or true faith has nothing to do with evidence. Just ask Job.

 

[steve_bank]

I have faith that the Laws Of Thermodynamics are true, but they can not be proven. It is only through long term experiment that we accept it as true.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I prefer the definition that faith is pretending to know something that you don't in fact know.

 

[DBT]

Faith is a belief, conviction, held without the support of evidence, sometimes held even in the face of evidence to the contrary....

 

[remez]

Faith is a belief, conviction, held without the support of evidence, sometimes held even in the face of evidence to the contrary....

....Like believing that the material universe is eternal.

....Like believing that all explanations must be natural explanations.

.....Like preaching that the Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be.

.....Like teaching that the universe can create itself out of nothing.

.....Like believing the Christian faith is not based on evidence.

.....Like believing that faith does not have a place in your worldview.

 

[Lion IRC]

Faith is a belief, conviction, held without the support of evidence, sometimes held even in the face of evidence to the contrary....

....Like believing that the material universe is eternal.

....Like believing that all explanations must be natural explanations.

.....Like preaching that the Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be.

.....Like teaching that the universe can create itself out of nothing.

.....Like believing the Christian faith is not based on evidence.

.....Like believing that faith does not have a place in your worldview.

Good point remez!

The Op asserts that faith is belief something you know isn't true.
Really? Is this a typo or accidental poor choice of words?

Imagine telling a person you love that faithfulness is based on untruths.

 

[bilby]

Faith is a belief, conviction, held without the support of evidence, sometimes held even in the face of evidence to the contrary....

....Like believing that the material universe is eternal.

....Like believing that all explanations must be natural explanations.

.....Like preaching that the Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be.

.....Like teaching that the universe can create itself out of nothing.

.....Like believing the Christian faith is not based on evidence.

.....Like believing that faith does not have a place in your worldview.

Good point remez!

The Op asserts that faith is belief something you know isn't true.
Really? Is this a typo or accidental poor choice of words?

Imagine telling a person you love that faithfulness is based on untruths.

It's not a typo nor a poor choice of words; it's a strawman, set up to allow you the great pleasure of knocking it down, and feeling smugly victorious.

Nobody actually thinks that faith is believing something you know isn't true. But by pretending that that's what some people believe, you get the benefit of being able to feel superior to them. Congratulations!

 

[remez]

Faith is a belief, conviction, held without the support of evidence, sometimes held even in the face of evidence to the contrary....

....Like believing that the material universe is eternal.

....Like believing that all explanations must be natural explanations.

.....Like preaching that the Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be.

.....Like teaching that the universe can create itself out of nothing.

.....Like believing the Christian faith is not based on evidence.

.....Like believing that faith does not have a place in your worldview.

Good point remez!

Thank you.

The Op asserts that faith is belief something you know isn't true.
Really? Is this a typo or accidental poor choice of words?

Imagine telling a person you love that faithfulness is based on untruths.

With regards to the wording, I would agree with bilby that the OP was a strawman.

But the larger point was even with DBT’s version…. They are blind to the fact of their own faith. To believe that the universe is eternal is a belief which stands against the prevailing evidence. Look at the list of their beliefs….where is the evidence?

 

[bilby]

Good point remez!

Thank you.

The Op asserts that faith is belief something you know isn't true.
Really? Is this a typo or accidental poor choice of words?

Imagine telling a person you love that faithfulness is based on untruths.

With regards to the wording, I would agree with bilby that the OP was a strawman.

But the larger point was even with DBT’s version…. They are blind to the fact of their own faith. To believe that the universe is eternal is a belief which stands against the prevailing evidence. Look at the list of their beliefs….where is the evidence?

Who are 'they'?

I don't know whether the universe is eternal or not. Is that a 'belief'?

I am certain that Gods don't exist, and that the universe therefore wasn't made by one; That's a belief, but it's one based on good hard logic- by "The universe" I mean everything that exists; In order for any entity to make the universe, it would have to not be a part of everything that exists.

The ONLY possibilities not eliminated by logic are either a) The universe is eternal OR b) The universe began to exist spontaneously from nothing.

If I accept, ad argumentum that the Big Bang was precipitated by an intelligence that existed before the Big Bang, then that intelligence still needs an explanation for its existence. To say that God is the beginning is to miss the point - if there is a God, then you are not thinking about the beginning yet. You could as well say that the question of origins is completely resolved, by the observation that the Solar System formed from the collapse of a cloud of dust and gas. Where did the dust and gas come from? Who cares. Let's just declare that it is eternal and stick a label on it that reads 'Supernatural phenomena beyond this point - please do not question'.

There is not one shred of evidence to back the claim that any gods are non-fiction; And there is a mountain of evidence for fictional gods. To believe that one or more gods are real entities, given the evidence available, would be insane. But if any evidence comes to light, I will be happy to review my belief. I am not holding my breath.

I don't believe that the universe is eternal; I do lean towards that possibility, but I really don't know.

I DO believe that there are no gods; I feel justified in that belief because those who claim that it is wrong seem incapable of even clearly defining what a god is, without including contradictions between their definition and observed reality, or worse, contradictions within their definitions.

It is perfectly reasonable to believe that something ill-defined does not exist; And it is completely unreasonable to believe in things that contradict themselves, or that contradict observed reality.

 

[Jobar]

Faith is a belief, conviction, held without the support of evidence, sometimes held even in the face of evidence to the contrary....

....Like believing that the material universe is eternal.

While our observations indicate that's a viable hypothesis, we don't hold it on faith. It may or may not be true. If new evidence more powerfully indicates matter is only temporary, we would be more likely to consider that true- but we still wouldn't consider it absolutely true.

....Like believing that all explanations must be natural explanations.

Show us something you can explain supernaturally. We might change our minds. (But we won't be holding our breath, waiting.)

.....Like preaching that the Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be.

That's just a re-statement of your first point; and we hypothesize that it's true, we don't 'preach' it.

.....Like teaching that the universe can create itself out of nothing.

Hold on. If the material universe is eternal, it's uncreated. Can't have it both ways. (Do you think God created himself out of nothing?)

.....Like believing the Christian faith is not based on evidence.

"We have heard talk enough. We have listened to all the drowsy, idealess, vapid sermons that we wish to hear. We have read your Bible and the works of your best minds. We have heard your prayers, your solemn groans and your reverential amens. All these amount to less than nothing. We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your mouldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a this year's fact. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years."
-Robert Ingersoll

.....Like believing that faith does not have a place in your worldview.

There's senses of the word 'faith' that we skeptics cheerfully admit to having. We can be, and have, faithful friends. We can act in good faith. The secular meaning of the word is a close cognate of honesty, and honor, and I don't deny the virtue of those ideas. Evidenced faith, based on experience and reasonable trust in one's fellows, is nothing to sneer at- as long as one realizes that it can be mistaken.

But in the religious sense- absolute, blind, and unquestioning Faith, which I normally specify by using the capital F- it's no virtue at all.

 

[DBT]

Faith is a belief, conviction, held without the support of evidence, sometimes held even in the face of evidence to the contrary....

....Like believing that the material universe is eternal.

Science makes no such claim. It's not known whether time had a beginning or not. There are several models, nothing is resolved.

....Like believing that all explanations must be natural explanations.

That is the experience, where once angels or nature spirits were used to explain natural physical processes, we now have natural explanations. If there is a need for a supernatural explanations, this needs a very good reason.

.....Like preaching that the Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be.

A provisional position based on the above, there are physical explanations where once gods and nature spirits were used.

.....Like teaching that the universe can create itself out of nothing.

Nobody is 'preaching' these things. Virtual particles appear and disappear out of quantum fluctuations, under the right conditions virtual particles can become actual particles.
Nobody is preaching that Universe did in fact begin from a quantum fluctuation. Nobody knows.

.....Like believing the Christian faith is not based on evidence.

Where is this evidence?

.....Like believing that faith does not have a place in your worldview.

You may be redefining or extending the definition of faith into the area of justified assumptions and beliefs based on verifiable evidence, ie, we know how the physical world behaves, its rules and principles, because we have direct and verifiable experience with these things.

That is not faith.

I suspect that you hope to use the word faith as a blanket term in order to justify beliefs that clearly do require faith.

 

[Treedbear]

Kudos to bilby and Jobar:

...
There is not one shred of evidence to back the claim that any gods are non-fiction; And there is a mountain of evidence for fictional gods. To believe that one or more gods are real entities, given the evidence available, would be insane. But if any evidence comes to light, I will be happy to review my belief. I am not holding my breath.
...

...

.....Like preaching that the Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be.

That's just a re-statement of your first point; and we hypothesize that it's true, we don't 'preach' it.
...

That's the problem with religions. They require a commitment in which faith supplants rational thought and supervenes moral judgement.

 

[Keith&Co.]

That's the problem with religions. They require a commitment in which faith supplants rational thought and supervenes moral judgement.

And insist that everyone else approaches certain topics the same way they do.

 

[sdelsolray]

Faith is believing something that you know isnt true.

Con men (confidence men) use this ability to swindle naive people who don't even realize that such a thing is possible.

Using the term "faith" in this context, which is already a loaded/toxic word, is misplaced.

A better term is "lying", either to yourself or to others.

 

[Lion IRC]

Faith is believing something that you know isnt true.

Since no-one-particular hasn't replied I'll have to take bilby's word for it that this is a deliberate strawtroll.

But there's a point to be made here about the type of 'belief' employed by hyper-skeptics who, because of their empiricism, methodically dismiss all other forms of faith, belief, trust, hope...

And if you're going to accuse others of wishful/wilful belief in God, you are open to the reciprocal accusation that your disbelief has an ulterior motive.