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Finnish man ordered by court to pay alimony for a child resulting from his wife cheating: this week in the strange death of Europe

Feel free to point me to a data source with accurate statistics concerning adultery and the people who get off on it.

Personally, I'm rather a prude. Especially when people involve children, who are usually the real victims of this kind of mess. If they aren't involving children I don't really care much. Competent adults should be free to trash their own lives as much as they want. But not the kid's lives.
Tom
 
Feel free to point me to a data source with accurate statistics concerning adultery and the people who get off on it.

I didn't claim or insiniate that the Finnish law in question not only appears to have miscarried in this one anecdotal case (if we believe the man's version which I tend to do but a court is required to decide based on laws and evidence) but is intrinsically broken, that it produces more harm than good overall.

Metaphor did, so if anything he owes us data. He doesn't get to handwave away examples of cases that might be problematic under his proposal with "bah, anecdotes" if all he ever offered is an anecdote.
 
Feel free to point me to a data source with accurate statistics concerning adultery and the people who get off on it.

I didn't claim or insiniate that the Finnish law in question not only appears to have miscarried in this one anecdotal case (if we believe the man's version which I tend to do but a court is required to decide based on laws and evidence) but is intrinsically broken, that it produces more harm than good overall.

Metaphor did, so if anything he owes us data. He doesn't get to handwave away examples of cases that might be problematic under his proposal with "bah, anecdotes" if all he ever offered is an anecdote.

Before we get into all your negatives, can we agree that (based on the information available) a Finnish court required a man to pay his ex-wife €50,000 years after they divorced?
And that's what this thread is about?
Tom
 
Feel free to point me to a data source with accurate statistics concerning adultery and the people who get off on it.

I didn't claim or insiniate that the Finnish law in question not only appears to have miscarried in this one anecdotal case (if we believe the man's version which I tend to do but a court is required to decide based on laws and evidence) but is intrinsically broken, that it produces more harm than good overall.

Metaphor did, so if anything he owes us data. He doesn't get to handwave away examples of cases that might be problematic under his proposal with "bah, anecdotes" if all he ever offered is an anecdote.

Before we get into all your negatives, can we agree that (based on the information available) a Finnish court required a man to pay his ex-wife €50,000 years after they divorced?
And that's what this thread is about?
Tom

That's part of what this thread is about. It is however also about how it's things like this that are killing Europe, that the laws that contributed to this ruling is so obviously bad that an armchair lawmaker from Australia can come up with a superior replacement without actually writing a single line of legalese, simply by invoking a couple abstract principles.

You have to thank Metaphor for that, it's all in his OP.
 
Before we get into all your negatives, can we agree that (based on the information available) a Finnish court required a man to pay his ex-wife €50,000 years after they divorced?
And that's what this thread is about?
Tom

That's part of what this thread is about. It is however also about how it's things like this that are killing Europe, that the laws that contributed to this ruling is so obviously bad that an armchair lawmaker from Australia can come up with a superior replacement without actually writing a single line of legalese, simply by invoking a couple abstract principles.

You have to thank Metaphor for that, it's all in his OP.

OK.
That's not what I see at all.

I totally agree that Family Court justice is impossible to resolve to the complete satisfaction of the internet.

And Europe isn't dying any more than USA was dying when old cultural notions were judged to be morally bankrupt. It took over a century to get voting rights to everyone. I've got Irish ancestors who weren't considered white (here) because they weren't Anglo-Saxon Protestants, a century ago.
But talking about obvious miscarriages of justice, like this one, isn't the problem. It's the injustices.
Tom
 
No, they don't.

Do not attribute to your opponents arguments they haven't made.

I believe you're being disingenuous by now denying reasons that are obviously part of your motivation for posting.

But hey, why not put words into my mouth? It's easier than substantive engagement I suppose.

It's more a case of not playing along with your pretences.

Incredible. Aren't you a mod? And now you are defending the idea that I made an OP about feminism, progressivism, or the Woke, when not a single one of those words appear in the OP and where I specifically later on talk about how conservative and traditionalist laws like the Finnish one are.

There was no pretense in the OP. If you lack the imagination to regard me as something other than a one-dimensional caricature, that's your failing. If you see arguments that are not only not present, but if they were present would be something like the opposite of what you imagine, that's your failing.

So, to put it mildly: fuck your assumption that you are justified in imputing arguments to me I have not made.
 
Feel free to point me to a data source with accurate statistics concerning adultery and the people who get off on it.

I didn't claim or insiniate that the Finnish law in question not only appears to have miscarried in this one anecdotal case (if we believe the man's version which I tend to do but a court is required to decide based on laws and evidence) but is intrinsically broken, that it produces more harm than good overall.

Metaphor did, so if anything he owes us data. He doesn't get to handwave away examples of cases that might be problematic under his proposal with "bah, anecdotes" if all he ever offered is an anecdote.

I owe you shit, Jokodo. And I haven't handwaved away a single case, I've fucking answered them in detail. You might not agree that the outcome I come up with is just, according to your subjective notions of just, but that does not mean I handwaved them away or that they are problematic.
 
But the point is, the state wasn't party to that discussion and shouldn't need to be (unless you want to live in a total police state).

Nope. That's dishonest. You definitely want the State to get involved when it all goes pear-shaped, and yet you think the State has no business knowing things that could help it make a just decision? The State knowing certain things about you is not a police state.

It is none of the state's business who my girl friend slept with in the weeks around the conception, or how much I knew about it.

Actually, it is if the State is going to make decisions like forcibly extracting money from somebody on the basis that they consented to be a parent.

The only concern for the state is that I claimed fatherhood and no-one else did. For all they need to know, I had fuller knowledge than the mother (say, she estimates based on the date when it happened that there's an 80% chance that I'm the father but I know or strongly suspect that I'm infertile, which I never told her about and which of course changes the odds - in that case, does she get to bail out as she never consented to carrying the other guy's child to term and raise them, only I did?).

Have you lost your mind? She had sex with two men she thought were fertile, and she chose to carry the child to term. As far as it is reasonable for her to know, either man could have been the parent and she was fine with either scenario. So yes, she did consent to being a mother when she had penis in vagina sex with a man and didn't abort the foetus. Hell, even afterwards, at least in America, every state has safe-haven child abandonment laws which will allow a mother to get rid of a child after it's born with no penalty to her.

Of course, in the case of a dispute, the question whether my decision was an informed one (or hers, for that matter) may become relevant, but a DNA test doesn't answer that question and thus doesn't count as evidence that it wasn't.

You are correct that legal disputes sometimes involve disputes over the facts.

Why should the state make the automatic assumption, absent any evidence either way, that I didn't know what they didn't know?

Why should the State make the automatic assumption that a husband is the father to any children his wife bears? You appear to believe I am introducing State assumptions when it's the exact opposite of the case. The State already makes assumptions which I think would be better if they were scuttled, or at least made more provisional and reversible than they are right now.

You are avoiding the question.

Giving you an answer which doesn't satisfy you for whatever reason is not avoiding a question.

For all I know, that's exactly what went on in the OP case: We only heard his side of the story as the mother didn't go to the media with her side, and the court documents are presumably not open to the public as opening them would violate a minor's privacy rights. For all I know, the mother and her lawyers claimed that he knew at the time of the pregnancy that there's a chance he's not the father, and produced eyewitnesses who remember talking with him about it at the time.

So what? If the mother and her lawyers claimed that, and the man claimed something different, the court clearly believed the man about him finding out about the affair and paternity years later, because that's the reported outcome. And even so, it didn't matter. He was still on the hook.

So to be clear, are you saying that the burden of evidence in such a kind of dispute should always be on the mother's side?

No. I'm saying the burden of evidence depends on who is making what kind of claim and the consequences of that claim.

For example, if you claim to have told a bio father he is a father, you should get evidence you did that.

No matter how long ago it happened and how inplausible it is that he just found out?

You find it implausible because you know two couples with cheating wives whose husbands knew or suspected. Of course, it has completely escaped you that you may know other couples with cheating wives where nobody suspects, including the husbands and especially you. Try to imagine things outside your experience, Jokodo. You might find it illuminating.

No matter even whether they were officially in an open relationship or in a supposedly monogamous one? No matter that none of that is actually the s/tate's business to know?

You suddenly appear to be against the State knowing things that you later authorise the State to interfere with, like determining financial fatherhood.

The State is already involved with marriage and offspring. The State already decides that two people can be married even if neither person ever wanted the legal trappings of a common law marriage. The working definition of marriage for many Western countries until recently was the union of a man and a woman, to the exclusion of all others, for life, and that's the assumption the State used. The State imposes assumptions, and if you think the State should be involved in marriage, you have to decide which assumptions are fair and which assumptions should be provisional and which assumptions are unnecessary.

Maybe he didn't know (we don't actually have her side of the story, so we can't be sure).

We could already have 'her side'. Maybe the facts of the case were not in dispute.

What we do know is that, even according to his version of the story, he waited half a year after allegedly finding out before filing for annulment - the court may have found that story implausible, or they they may have interpreted the law as suggesting that continuing the status quo for that long constitutes evidence of post-hoc consent. I'm sure there are men who didn't know, whether or not he is one of them. I know there are also men who did know. Do you have actual figures demonstrating which case is more common? Or is it just that one case is more worthy of legal protection than the other because it involves men as the potential victims?

I don't know where you could get such statistics or why you think it matters.

Also, what on earth are you talking about? Cases of paternity always involve men.

You don't know that. They might have been in an open relationship, or he might have been cheating too with the only substantial difference being that he can't get pregnant from it.

That's quite a substantial difference. For one thing, his wife would never be 'on the hook' for his other children, would she? The law wouldn't even consider it.

At any rate, a law that guarantees good outcomes for people who always make the right choices but miserably fails to produce the best in bad situations people maneuver themselves into is not fit for the real world. You understand that much?

Sure. I reckon though we might fundamentally disagree on what the 'best' outcome in a 'bad situation' is.

My anecdote of what I know to have happened to actual blood-and-flesh people I know (some of them my own blood and flesh) beats your anecdotal case you dug out somehow, of a scenario that's rare enough to make international news, some 15000km from home, hands down.

You are using your anecdote to somehow 'prove' to me that your kind of marriage anomaly is more common than the marriage anomaly in the OP.

I could not care less whether it is or not. I have not made any kind of claim about the statistical distribution of all the different ways a marriage can deviate from a monogamous, children living with both genetic parents model.

If you want to stop arguing about anecdotes and talk about data instead, maybe it's time you produce some?

I have not made any kind of claim about the statistical distribution of all the different ways a marriage can deviate from a monogamous, children living with both genetic parents model, and it is irrelevant to the discussion.

Who is "he" in this sentence? The guy she had an affair with? For all you know she did tell him.

She might have told him. Do you think she was obligated to tell him?

If people always and unambiguously acted within the law, we wouldn't need courts. Yes, I expect there will be legal grey areas and/or cases where absent supernatural abilities by judges, courts will make decisions based on incomplete evidence that are ultimately unjust. Proposing a law without showing awareness of this fact and without even making an attempt to estimate the harm that could be done by the law and setting it in relation to the harm that is prevented is naive, dishonest, or lazy (possibly more than one descriptor applies).

I am not writing a family law act in order to have a discussion of principles on a message board.


I never spoke of not having a court looking at the individual facts (do I have to remind you that you did, though, at one point?).

No, I didn't. The court has to determine how a set of individual facts fit into the legislation. I've never denied this.


This is about why you think a court will always be able to determine those facts without a shred of doubt, years after the fact, and about what assumptions it can or cannot make when it fails to do so.

I don't know in what universe you think courts determine facts without 'a shred of doubt'. Courts determine facts all the time, sometimes allegedly beyond reasonable doubt, sometimes with clear and convincing evidence, sometimes on the balance of probabilities. And the courts get it wrong, too. Ask all the men who have been freed by the Innocence Project.
 
And now you are defending the idea that I made an OP about feminism, progressivism, or the Woke, when not a single one of those words appear in the OP and where I specifically later on talk about how conservative and traditionalist laws like the Finnish one are.

Sorry, but the last part of your thread title is a bit of a giveaway.
 
And now you are defending the idea that I made an OP about feminism, progressivism, or the Woke, when not a single one of those words appear in the OP and where I specifically later on talk about how conservative and traditionalist laws like the Finnish one are.

Sorry, but the last part of your thread title is a bit of a giveaway.

I don't know about "the strange death of Europe", but this Finnish court decision seems to be that the female is incapable of sorting her own affairs and needs a man to fund the consequences of her decisions.
That seems beyond conservative and traditionalist, and into the quite reactionary.
Tom

ETA That wasn't the post I quoted
 
And now you are defending the idea that I made an OP about feminism, progressivism, or the Woke, when not a single one of those words appear in the OP and where I specifically later on talk about how conservative and traditionalist laws like the Finnish one are.

Sorry, but the last part of your thread title is a bit of a giveaway.

Alright luv. You know better than I do what is in my mind , and your speculative interpretation of a dramatic subtitle overrides the plainly written words in the thread.

I confess, I was going to make a bombshell revelation thirty pages in exactly how feminism is responsible for the outcome in the OP case, but you've gone and discovered my plan!

It's probably a hidden blessing, but. Because I'm still struggling to make an argument in my head about how the OP was about the feminism. And now I won't have to argue that position and then make the embarrassing concession that the OP situation isn't really related to feminism like I originally thought but coyly tried to disguise.
 
And now you are defending the idea that I made an OP about feminism, progressivism, or the Woke, when not a single one of those words appear in the OP and where I specifically later on talk about how conservative and traditionalist laws like the Finnish one are.

Sorry, but the last part of your thread title is a bit of a giveaway.

I don't know about "the strange death of Europe", but this Finnish court decision seems to be that the female is incapable of sorting her own affairs and needs a man to fund the consequences of her decisions.

What about the man's decision to continue to act as a father for seven months after he found out the child wasn't his? Should we not respect that decision and hold him accountable for it?
 
I don't know about "the strange death of Europe", but this Finnish court decision seems to be that the female is incapable of sorting her own affairs and needs a man to fund the consequences of her decisions.

What about the man's decision to continue to act as a father for seven months after he found out the child wasn't his? Should we not respect that decision and hold him accountable for it?

Hold him accountable....for what, exactly?

What you mean is: should the Finnish law forcibly extract money from a man who never consented to be a father to someone else's genetic offspring, because he took too much time, according to Jokodo, to process his being cuckolded?

The man made a decision: he made the decision that he could not continue being husband to the woman who betrayed him, or father to a child he did not consent to.

Why can't you respect that decision?
 
I don't know about "the strange death of Europe", but this Finnish court decision seems to be that the female is incapable of sorting her own affairs and needs a man to fund the consequences of her decisions.

What about the man's decision to continue to act as a father for seven months after he found out the child wasn't his? Should we not respect that decision and hold him accountable for it?

Hold him accountable....for what, exactly?

What you mean is: should the Finnish law forcibly extract money from a man who never consented to be a father to someone else's genetic offspring, because he took too much time, according to Jokodo, to process his being cuckolded?

Not "according to Jokodo". According to Finnish law, apparently.

But why shouldn't there be a time limit? Why shouldn't his acts over half a year be treated of indicating a decision he had already made, even if never voiced?

In every other part of contract laws, there are acts that are treated as tacit consent and legally equivalent to signing a form, and there are time limits and penalties as to stepping back from a contract.

If you order a red bike but are delivered a blue one, you get to send it back at the seller's cost since you never consented to the purchase of a blue bike. If you keep it and ride it for half a year, doing so is considered tacit consent to the purchase of a blue bike, even though there is only paperwork to demonstrate you consenting to buy a red bike.

If you (at least in Austria) rent a flat on a two-year-contract, but when the two years are over continue paying the rent, and the landlord continues to accept it, you and your landlord have effectively renewed your contract. Continuing to pay/collect rent is treated as the consequence and evidence of your consent to doing so.

If you buy a pack of 10 AA batteries at the convenience store and at home find that what you needed was AAA batteries, they'll probably let you exchange them if you come back the next day with the unopened pack and the receipt (though they may not be legally bound to do it). If you come back with a six-month-old receipt and 10 loose batteries, you'll be laughed out the door.

Why should this case be different from any of the above? Why should continuing to act as a father even when the child turned out not to be what he had consented to not count as evidence of wanting to be a father? When proceeding to ride a blue bike even when it turned out to be not the colour your consented to purchasing does as as evidence of consent to riding a blue bike? When continuing to pay rent counts as evidence of wanting to continue to live in a flat, and continuing to collect rent counts as evidence of wanting to rent it out for longer?

The idea that acting as if you wanted X is treated as, and in some cases legally equivalent to verbally expressing that you want X is certainly a very common principle and not confined to Finnish family law. If you want to say that that principle should not be applied to Finnish family law, it's up to you to make an argument as to why.
 
Not "according to Jokodo". According to Finnish law, apparently.

So, you now think the Finnish law did not lead to a bad outcome in this case, but in fact the correct one?

You changed your mind?

But why shouldn't there be a time limit? Why shouldn't his acts over half a year be treated of indicating a decision he had already made, even if never voiced?

Because he never consented to be a father to someone else's genetic offspring in the first place, and the time and resources he spent parenting the child after he found out, to be used against him, is a monstrous absurdity.


In every other part of contract laws, there are acts that are treated as tacit consent and legally equivalent to signing a form, and there are time limits and penalties as to stepping back from a contract.

With whom did he make a contract?

If you order a red bike but are delivered a blue one, you get to send it back at the seller's cost since you never consented to the purchase of a blue bike. If you keep it and ride it for half a year, doing so is considered tacit consent to the purchase of a blue bike, even though there is only paperwork to demonstrate you consenting to buy a red bike.

So, let me get this right: you are comparing your own genetic offspring as a red bike, and being deceived about somebody's else's child from your cuckolding wife as a blue bike? That the difference is as slight as a matter of taste in colour?


If you (at least in Austria) rent a flat on a two-year-contract, but when the two years are over continue paying the rent, and the landlord continues to accept it, you and your landlord have effectively renewed your contract. Continuing to pay/collect rent is treated as the consequence and evidence of your consent to doing so.

And you know what else happens in Austria? If you stop paying the rent and say "I don't want to live here any more", the State does not force you to live somewhere else while forcing you to pay rent at the original place for the next 16 years.



If you buy a pack of 10 AA batteries at the convenience store and at home find that what you needed was AAA batteries, they'll probably let you exchange them if you come back the next day with the unopened pack and the receipt (though they may not be legally bound to do it). If you come back with a six-month-old receipt and 10 loose batteries, you'll be laughed out the door.

More like: if you ordered AAA batteries on subscription, and you were sent AA batteries, and you wanted to cancel your subscription, the company says "too late, we are sending you AA batteries for the next 16 years, and you're going to pay for them every month, and it does not matter whether you want to use them or not".

Extremely telling that you think children are like used batteries.


Why should this case be different from any of the above?

For elementary reasons that I can't believe you need explaining to you.

Why should continuing to act as a father even when the child turned out not to be what he had consented to not count as evidence of wanting to be a father? When proceeding to ride a blue bike even when it turned out to be not the colour your consented to purchasing does as as evidence of consent to riding a blue bike? When continuing to pay rent counts as evidence of wanting to continue to live in a flat, and continuing to collect rent counts as evidence of wanting to rent it out for longer?

Probably because he is a human being with complex emotions? Possibly, he thought "I have treated this child as mine for x years, and of course I will continue to love her". But then, the stress of the mother's betrayal hung like a cloud over his head, and where he used to find joy when he looked at the child's face, he now only feels sadness. And he tried his best for months to let his relationship be as it was before, but to no avail, because it was simply not as it was before. And so, like any major life upheaval, it took him a while to sort himself out.

No, his humanity is simply too much. If he'd instead been a complete psychopath, and left his wife and child the day he found out, the Finnish law, and you presumably, would leave him completely off the hook.

Imagine a man who is being physically and verbally abused by his wife, and it takes him seven months to sort himself out and physically leave the house and relationship. Did he consent to be with his wife for an unspecified number of years afterwards, because he stayed with her for seven months while he was being abused, and therefore consented to the marriage as it was?
 
Alright luv. You know better than I do what is in my mind , and your speculative interpretation of a dramatic subtitle overrides the plainly written words in the thread.

Yeah, well, you seem to do something similar from time to time, so sometimes I wonder. I remember once you tried to say you weren't complaining via an OP, because (you said) you hadn't used the word complain, even though you were clearly nonetheless complaining. And the last part of your thread title usually signals some sort of anti-feminism or anti-wokeness or something similar by you, and doesn't make as much sense as a criticism of traditionalism. And at one point in the thread you did have a sideswipe at feminism.

But, in this case you're mainly blaming the traditionalism of the system. Ok. Presumably, if (if) some people or feminists were not sympathetic to men in such cases (or similar cases coming under the general heading 'enforced fatherhood') you would accuse them of either gender traditionalism (if they weren't feminists) or double standards (if they were).*

But those issues are not your main thrust, so to speak, and this time it's just men's rights of themselves that you're arguing for.

Ok.

So on that basis and as I said before, I think everyone here should agree that this case was not fair on the man, based on what we know, and I think nearly everyone does agree with that. Some have more caveats than others regarding the outcome for the child. Some people, men or women, will put a child's interests extremely high on the list of priorities, sometimes to the point that they will clearly outweigh and in some cases override the interests of any adult, in almost any situation. It's not quite as clear cut as that for me. Adults are people too, if you like.

My own feeling is that, for the cuckolded man, the time limit should be longer than 6 months from finding out, which is what it effectively was here. Possibly also, the law should not so readily assume implied consent, especially if the man moved out within 2 months, and especially for a very young child, as here, with the added factors that apparently (a) the wife was still having the affair at time of discovery and (b) preferred the other man, the biological or 'real' father, over the husband. That she also apparently instigated divorce proceedings very quickly after the husband moved out, and later went for sole custody, should also be taken into account, imo. Neither suggests she either wanted him to be or saw him as the father, except in monetary or other pragmatic or convenient terms.

Beyond that, laws are sometimes clumsy and complicated, and never 100% effective. Change them one way and they may sometimes have unintended effects in other ways in other cases. I wouldn't pretend to know how to get the overall balance right. I believe significantly child-centred laws are a fairly recent thing in family law, or they have at least gained significant traction in the last few decades in the western world. This guy seems to be collateral damage to that development in this particular sort of case (one involving children of separating or divorcing parents I mean) and I would have thought the discovered cuckoldry and other particular circumstances would have been taken into account a bit more in this case. I might even go so far as to say that the letter of the law was applied too strictly, perhaps. Hence, I suppose the outcry on Finnish social media from some, albeit that as regards the details they mostly only have the ex-husband's side of the story so far.



*As an interesting side note, it seems to be the case that there is disagreement among modern Feminists as to whether to advocate for or against more men's rights in this regard (general issues around 'enforced fatherhood' I mean). Men's Rights advocates are not without support from some Feminists in this regard.
 
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I don't know about "the strange death of Europe", but this Finnish court decision seems to be that the female is incapable of sorting her own affairs and needs a man to fund the consequences of her decisions.

What about the man's decision to continue to act as a father for seven months after he found out the child wasn't his? Should we not respect that decision and hold him accountable for it?

If I described you as a feminist, would that be accurate?
Tom
 
Hold him accountable....for what, exactly?

What you mean is: should the Finnish law forcibly extract money from a man who never consented to be a father to someone else's genetic offspring, because he took too much time, according to Jokodo, to process his being cuckolded?

Not "according to Jokodo". According to Finnish law,
If she lived in Saudi Arabia, and the court decided that her behavior deserved a public flogging and a few years in jail, would you justify that with "It's Saudi law"?
Tom
 
So, you now think the Finnish law did not lead to a bad outcome in this case, but in fact the correct one?

You changed your mind?

I don't know whether this ruling was justified and neither do you. What I'm saying is that a time limit in and of itself does make sense, whether its application in this particular case makes sense is up for a court to clarify - a court that almost certainly knew more details about the case than you or I.

Because he never consented to be a father to someone else's genetic offspring in the first place, and the time and resources he spent parenting the child after he found out, to be used against him, is a monstrous absurdity.


In every other part of contract laws, there are acts that are treated as tacit consent and legally equivalent to signing a form, and there are time limits and penalties as to stepping back from a contract.

With whom did he make a contract?

If you order a red bike but are delivered a blue one, you get to send it back at the seller's cost since you never consented to the purchase of a blue bike. If you keep it and ride it for half a year, doing so is considered tacit consent to the purchase of a blue bike, even though there is only paperwork to demonstrate you consenting to buy a red bike.

So, let me get this right: you are comparing your own genetic offspring as a red bike, and being deceived about somebody's else's child from your cuckolding wife as a blue bike? That the difference is as slight as a matter of taste in colour?

No, as you would know if you actually read my post in good faith. What I'm comparing is the act of accepting a bike you didn't explicitly consent to purchasing and doing all of the things with it a buyer would do and none of the things a person who wants to return it because it's not what he ordered with the act of accepting a child you didn't explicitly consent to raising (i.e. you only ever consented explicitly to raising your own offspring) and doing all of the things a father would do and none of the things a person who doesn't want to be the child's father would do.

If one of those decisions can be made tacitly, through your acts, why not the other? Do you feel only inconsequential decisions should be made tacitly, while more consequential decisions require an explicit, notarized verbalization?

Or do you feel the half a year is just too short to deduce a tacit decision from his actions? How long would be long enough? If he stays with the child and mother after finding out the cheated and the child isn't his for another five years, though without ever legally adopting the child, just continuing to act in accordance with the status quo that already makes him the legal father, does he get to dump the child along with the wife if they do break up for a different reason five years later? If he voluntarily goes on to pay child support after the breakup and regularly sees his child, does he get to stop paying (5 years after the breakup and 10 years after he found out the child is not his) when his new girlfriend shows little understanding for him paying for a child that's "not even his"?

If you (at least in Austria) rent a flat on a two-year-contract, but when the two years are over continue paying the rent, and the landlord continues to accept it, you and your landlord have effectively renewed your contract. Continuing to pay/collect rent is treated as the consequence and evidence of your consent to doing so.

And you know what else happens in Austria? If you stop paying the rent and say "I don't want to live here any more", the State does not force you to live somewhere else while forcing you to pay rent at the original place for the next 16 years.

That's not entirely true. You will be bound by all the residual stipulations of the original contract if you let the two-year-limit slip and continue pretending that you have a contract. For example, if the original contract stipulates (as is commonly the case) that you have to give a 3-month early notice if you want to move out before the contract expires, you'll be bound by that same 3-month notice period. Say, I sign a two-year contract from June 2018 to May 2020 inclusive with an option to get out early with a three-month early notice, and keep paying rent and living in the apartment, if I today tell my landlord I found a new flat and will be out tomorrow, I still have to pay rent for the rest of November and all of December and January/February next year (the current month + 3 full months) - even though I never signed that I wanted to keep the apartment for longer than the May 31, 2020. I'm legally bound by the terms of a contract I never signed - a renewal of our original contract in this case - in all the same ways as if I had signed it.

Now, maybe you have a hard time understanding why an option to bail out early (with a notice period that allows your landlord to find a new tenant to take over when you move out, or to make plans for reconstruction and hire people to do it) makes more sense for home rental than for parenthood, but then maybe you should just think about the difference between the two kind of obligations for like 30 seconds?

If you buy a pack of 10 AA batteries at the convenience store and at home find that what you needed was AAA batteries, they'll probably let you exchange them if you come back the next day with the unopened pack and the receipt (though they may not be legally bound to do it). If you come back with a six-month-old receipt and 10 loose batteries, you'll be laughed out the door.

More like: if you ordered AAA batteries on subscription, and you were sent AA batteries, and you wanted to cancel your subscription, the company says "too late, we are sending you AA batteries for the next 16 years, and you're going to pay for them every month, and it does not matter whether you want to use them or not".

Extremely telling that you think children are like used batteries.

I'm not saying (or thinking) children are like used batteries. I'm saying that acting as if you want to enter an contract, honoring the obligations and reaping the benefits, can, under certain circumstances, be legally construed as an an agreement to that contract, and binds you to those obligations just as much as signing it. If you didn't know that legal principle exists, I gave you a few examples where it applies. Do you think this legal principle shouldn't exist? Or do you think it shouldn't apply to this kind of case in general? Or do you feel that the court has given insufficient consideration to the potential reasons why it should not apply in this particular case?

You obviously feel that this guy didn't get what he deserved, and I can understand that (insofar as we can trust his version of the story, which is the only one we've seen). But exactly what should be done to prevent it is much less clear.

Why should this case be different from any of the above?

For elementary reasons that I can't believe you need explaining to you.

Why should continuing to act as a father even when the child turned out not to be what he had consented to not count as evidence of wanting to be a father? When proceeding to ride a blue bike even when it turned out to be not the colour your consented to purchasing does as as evidence of consent to riding a blue bike? When continuing to pay rent counts as evidence of wanting to continue to live in a flat, and continuing to collect rent counts as evidence of wanting to rent it out for longer?

Probably because he is a human being with complex emotions? Possibly, he thought "I have treated this child as mine for x years, and of course I will continue to love her". But then, the stress of the mother's betrayal hung like a cloud over his head, and where he used to find joy when he looked at the child's face, he now only feels sadness. And he tried his best for months to let his relationship be as it was before, but to no avail, because it was simply not as it was before. And so, like any major life upheaval, it took him a while to sort himself out.

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not Finnish, and I'm certainly not an expert in Finnish family law, but I honestly believe that the Finnish law allows for extension of all kind of time limits if you're bona fide unable to complete the authorities' demands within the normal time. If I get a letter ordering me to pay a fine for a traffic violation in Austria, I usually have 4 weeks to lodge a formal objection. If I let those four weeks pass without action, I get to pay the fine even if I can prove that I wasn't there at the time and place. If, however, I am prevented from doing so, the clock is effectively paused and only starts to run when I am once again in a capacity to do so. For example, I'm comatose, or in prison abroad, or in no mental state do sign anything legal - all of these constitute valid grounds for exceptions from the normal time limit. For all we know, he could have argued that and would have gotten off the hook, but didn't because it sounded wrong even to himself - in which case your objection is irrelevant. Or his lawyers didn't think of this defense, in which case he deserves to be retried with better lawyers. Or maybe that's exactly what he argued but the judge didn't find it convincing, because there was evidence that he sort-of knew long before running the paternity test, so they decided he actually did meaningfully consent to raising a child that might not be his.

I'm fairly positive that the judge and/or jury knew more details about the case than you or I. They still might have gotten it wrong, but honestly we don't know enough to tell for sure that they did, nor where they may have gone wrong if so.

No, his humanity is simply too much. If he'd instead been a complete psychopath, and left his wife and child the day he found out, the Finnish law, and you presumably, would leave him completely off the hook.

Someone who makes a clear decision and sticks to it deserves to have this decision honoured, yes. Whether you call him a psychopath or not.

Imagine a man who is being physically and verbally abused by his wife, and it takes him seven months to sort himself out and physically leave the house and relationship. Did he consent to be with his wife for an unspecified number of years afterwards, because he stayed with her for seven months while he was being abused, and therefore consented to the marriage as it was?

I imagine that Finnish law, like the laws in other jurisdictions, contains a provision that decisions made under duress or while under incomplete possession of one's mental capacities are not legally binding. Apparently, they found no evidence that this applied when the guy decided to continue fathering his child after finding out she wasn't his genetic offspring.
 
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Hold him accountable....for what, exactly?

What you mean is: should the Finnish law forcibly extract money from a man who never consented to be a father to someone else's genetic offspring, because he took too much time, according to Jokodo, to process his being cuckolded?

Not "according to Jokodo". According to Finnish law,
If she lived in Saudi Arabia, and the court decided that her behavior deserved a public flogging and a few years in jail, would you justify that with "It's Saudi law"?
Tom

No.

Do you honestly feel that being held accountable for a decision that you never formulated but nonetheless expressed through your actions is comparable to being flogged and jailed?

Apparently, what the court found was that this guy had made a decision - the decision that he wants to be the child's father even knowing that she's not genetically his - and shouldn't be allowed to willy-nilly change his mind at an arbitrary later point in time. I agree with that in principle, though I do not know enough about the details of the case to judge whether it was right to apply it in this case. If we give up on a principle like that, the man could, for example, tell the woman that he doesn't mind the child isn't his and continue to act as a father when she confesses that there was an affair and the other guy might be the father even during pregnancy - and then leave her and the kid and be entirely off the hook years later. Since that is obviously not a fair outcome we want as a society (at least I hope we can agree on that much), there has to be some provision to prevent it. Like, a provision that says "once you decide you want to act as a parent, in full knowledge of all relevant fact, we are going to hold you accountable even if your feelings change later, and you don't get out with a three month notice period like from a rental contract". I feel that is a reasonable provision, what I don't know is whether it should be applied here.

I do not agree in principle that adulterers should be flogged, jailed, or stoned to death.
 
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