First Amendment and Gray Water Treatment?!

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yup, it just doesn't end. Though this was in SCOTUS a while ago, it is still floundering in the lower courts again.

Members of a deeply conservative Amish community in Minnesota don't need to install septic systems to dispose of their “gray water,” the state Court of Appeals ruled Monday in a long-running religious freedom case that went all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court.

A three-judge panel ruled that the government “failed to demonstrate a compelling state interest” to justify overriding the religious freedom of the Amish families that challenged state regulations governing the disposal of gray water, which is water that's been used for dishwashing, laundry, and bathing, but not toilet waste.

Regarding SCOTUS's take on it:

Writing for the court in the Amish case, Justice Neil Gorsuch said lower courts made a mistake when they said the county’s interest in good sanitation was enough to justify the requirement for a septic system. Instead, he wrote, the county must prove that the regulatory solution it wants is the one that will do the least harm to the rights of the Amish.

WTF?! The county has no interest in protecting the groundwater?!

 

[Gospel]

The court's stance, as articulated in this document, does not deny the county's interest in the matter. Instead, it acknowledges such interest, but demands empirical proof that the proposed solution inflicts the minimal possible damage on the Amish's rights. Given that this is a conflict involving the rights of citizens versus governmental actions, I consider the court's request for evidence reasonable.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The court's stance, as articulated in this document, does not deny the county's interest in the matter. Instead, it acknowledges such interest, but demands empirical proof that the proposed solution inflicts the minimal possible damage on the Amish's rights. Given that this is a conflict involving the rights of citizens versus governmental actions, I consider the court's request for evidence reasonable.

I consider polluting the water table grossly unethical. SCOTUS has no business meddling in engineering.

 

[Gospel]

The court's stance, as articulated in this document, does not deny the county's interest in the matter. Instead, it acknowledges such interest, but demands empirical proof that the proposed solution inflicts the minimal possible damage on the Amish's rights. Given that this is a conflict involving the rights of citizens versus governmental actions, I consider the court's request for evidence reasonable.

I consider polluting the water table grossly unethical. SCOTUS has no business meddling in engineering.

This likely explains why the court is soliciting more comprehensive information on alternate solutions from experts. While it's within their power to simply rule in favor of the county, it's evident they're placing significant emphasis on safeguarding the rights of the Amish community. I find that reasonable. Should evidence emerge demonstrating that the county's approach is indeed the most effective (which I know will be the case), yet the court disputes it on the basis of religious considerations rather than scientific rationale, I'll stand firmly alongside you, wielding a megaphone and all.

 

[Toni]

Yup, it just doesn't end. Though this was in SCOTUS a while ago, it is still floundering in the lower courts again.

Members of a deeply conservative Amish community in Minnesota don't need to install septic systems to dispose of their “gray water,” the state Court of Appeals ruled Monday in a long-running religious freedom case that went all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court.

A three-judge panel ruled that the government “failed to demonstrate a compelling state interest” to justify overriding the religious freedom of the Amish families that challenged state regulations governing the disposal of gray water, which is water that's been used for dishwashing, laundry, and bathing, but not toilet waste.

Regarding SCOTUS's take on it:

Writing for the court in the Amish case, Justice Neil Gorsuch said lower courts made a mistake when they said the county’s interest in good sanitation was enough to justify the requirement for a septic system. Instead, he wrote, the county must prove that the regulatory solution it wants is the one that will do the least harm to the rights of the Amish.

WTF?! The county has no interest in protecting the groundwater?!

I’m pretty WTF as well but it is worth noting that this ruling is only with respect to so-called gray-water, I.e. not toilet water. Some ( non-Amish) people use gray water for such things as watering gardens. It contains much less concern for bacterial/viral contamination. Still a lot depends on things like water tables, topography, etc. I am not certain but I believe that the Amish use outhouses and chamber pots rather than flush toilets.

I’m actually uncertain what the Amish objections to a septic system are, except cost. The use of electricity? This seems inconsistent because Amish will ride in cars, use telephones and certainly shop in modern stores.

OTOH, what about people sending disposable diapers ( infant and adult) to landfills?

It seems clear that this SCOTUS will go to great lengths to preserve religious freedom.

 

[ZiprHead]

I’m actually uncertain what the Amish objections to a septic system are, except cost. The use of electricity? This seems inconsistent because Amish will ride in cars, use telephones and certainly shop in modern stores.

The Amish around here don't do any of those things. Are you maybe confusing them with Mennonites?

I too wonder what the religious reasoning is behind this.

 

[Gospel]

As per my understanding, the Amish* utilize gas-powered washing machines as they align with their ethos of avoiding worldly influences aka worldliness. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit: To my knowledge septic tanks aren't electric.
Edit2: I mean they do require electric pumps if septic tank is lower than the drain field.
Edit3: * By Amish I mean these particular Amish.

 

[Toni]

I’m actually uncertain what the Amish objections to a septic system are, except cost. The use of electricity? This seems inconsistent because Amish will ride in cars, use telephones and certainly shop in modern stores.

The Amish around here don't do any of those things. Are you maybe confusing them with Mennonites?

I too wonder what the religious reasoning is behind this.

Nope. Definitely lots of Amish in my area.

Note: in my area, Amish don’t own or operate automobiles but on occasion will ride in a motorized vehicle. On occasion, they will make use of a Public telephone, but as I write this, I’m thinking about how long it’s been since I’ve seen an Amish person on a public phone, which barely exist. Probably a long time. I think they will make use of telephones , either directly or by asking an English neighbor to make an emergency phone call. There’s a large chain of farm supply retailers in my area and occasionally you will see Amish there. I have seen Amish occasionally in a grocery store and definitely in health care settings.

 

[laughing dog]

In my view, 1st amendment rights should not override any threat to health, safety and life from polluting a natural resource.

I hope that state of Mn comes up with some actual evidence to support any regulation. I suspect the state of Mn will act to study this because water issues are becoming more important here. For far too long, the state has taken water for granted.

In my region, some Amish operate puppy mills in deplorable conditions. I realize that the following reveals a rather regrettable side to my nature, but, in general, I could care less about their threats to their alleged "religious freedom" when in comes to health and safety.

 

[ZiprHead]

I’m actually uncertain what the Amish objections to a septic system are, except cost. The use of electricity? This seems inconsistent because Amish will ride in cars, use telephones and certainly shop in modern stores.

The Amish around here don't do any of those things. Are you maybe confusing them with Mennonites?

I too wonder what the religious reasoning is behind this.

Nope. Definitely lots of Amish in my area.

Note: in my area, Amish don’t own or operate automobiles but on occasion will ride in a motorized vehicle. On occasion, they will make use of a Public telephone, but as I write this, I’m thinking about how long it’s been since I’ve seen an Amish person on a public phone, which barely exist. Probably a long time. I think they will make use of telephones , either directly or by asking an English neighbor to make an emergency phone call. There’s a large chain of farm supply retailers in my area and occasionally you will see Amish there. I have seen Amish occasionally in a grocery store and definitely in health care settings.

Hmmm. Okay. I've never seen that here and there's a large Amish population in northern lower Michigan.

We went to an Amish store once. Lit by gas lights and the refrigerators and freezers were running on generators. Damn good prices though.

 

[Toni]

In my view, 1st amendment rights should not override any threat to health, safety and life from polluting a natural resource.

I hope that state of Mn comes up with some actual evidence to support any regulation. I suspect the state of Mn will act to study this because water issues are becoming more important here. For far too long, the state has taken water for granted.

In my region, some Amish operate puppy mills in deplorable conditions. I realize that the following reveals a rather regrettable side to my nature, but, in general, I could care less about their threats to their alleged "religious freedom" when in comes to health and safety.

Please note: this only is in regards to so called gray water: NOT toilet contents. I believe the Amish use outhouses.

 

[laughing dog]

In my view, 1st amendment rights should not override any threat to health, safety and life from polluting a natural resource.

I hope that state of Mn comes up with some actual evidence to support any regulation. I suspect the state of Mn will act to study this because water issues are becoming more important here. For far too long, the state has taken water for granted.

In my region, some Amish operate puppy mills in deplorable conditions. I realize that the following reveals a rather regrettable side to my nature, but, in general, I could care less about their threats to their alleged "religious freedom" when in comes to health and safety.

Please note: this only is in regards to so called gray water: NOT toilet contents. I believe the Amish use outhouses.

Whether or not "gray water" poses a threat to the health and safety of other users of that groundwater is an empirical issue. I would hope that the state of Mn gets on board in a well-grounded scientific study to determine what effects and which concentrations (if any) cause preventable health effects on others and the environment. Despite the 10,000 lakes and the large rivers in Mn, groundwater is the primary source of drinking water use (about 3/4 of drinking water in Mn is groundwater).

It is clear to me that the "Amish" in my region are not terribly concerned with their effects on others while they are prickly about the reverse.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes, gray water isn't raw sewage, but it isn't exactly clean. Protecting the water table is one of the biggest thing Government should be entrusted with.

Meanwhile, regarding technology, there is a reason Amish always have vets go to their house instead of going to the vet with the animal.

*Amish Horse walks into waiting room*
Horse 1: Hey there.
Amish Horse: Hey.
Horse 1: So what are you in for?
Amish Horse: Got a sore knee, you?
Horse 1: Sorry to hear about. I've got this damn skin thing can't get rid of.
Amish Horse: Well, always nice to get out from the farm.
Horse 1: Not really a fan of that. We have a huge field I get to run around when I'm not helping with the cattle. What do you do?
Amish Horse: Pull stuff for farming.
Horse 1: Yeah right... funny.
Amish Horse: Funny?
Horse 1: Wait, you are serious?
Amish Horse: Yeah, don't all horses work on farms doing hard labor, pulling things, moving people in their carts too?
Horse 1: Well yeah... in the 19th century.
Amish Horse: ???
Horse 1: Over 125 years ago. Humans have machines that do most of that stuff.
Amish Horse: Really?
Horse 1: Yeah. For decades! Bigger, faster, more efficient. They stopped using horses for those tasks a long time ago.
Amish Horse: You mean my owners have been making me bust my ass for nothing?
Horse 1: Sounds like it, I'm sorry.
Amish Horse: But... but... why?
Horse 2: They might be one of them Amish people. They don't like technology because it offends their god or something.
Amish Horse: That invisible dude they worship?
Horse 1: Yup, that thing. People are so primitive.
Amish Horse: So I've been busting my ass to please their fake sky daddy?!??!
Horse 1/2: Yup.

Two Days later in the Newspaper...
Amish Couple Found Dead In Bed - Police indicate it looked like they been run over by several horses....

 

[Worldtraveller]

The court's stance, as articulated in this document, does not deny the county's interest in the matter. Instead, it acknowledges such interest, but demands empirical proof that the proposed solution inflicts the minimal possible damage on the Amish's rights. Given that this is a conflict involving the rights of citizens versus governmental actions, I consider the court's request for evidence reasonable.

I consider polluting the water table grossly unethical. SCOTUS has no business meddling in engineering.

We (government municipalities and other places) use gray water for irrigation all over the US, so it's generally not considered harmful.
However, most states have notifications requirements to put signs up saying not to drink the water being used for irrigation.

I think having them put up "Non-potable Water" signs anywhere that it stands long enough or is potentially public enough to worry about someone (or their pets!) accidentally drinking the water is reasonable accommodation.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In my view, 1st amendment rights should not override any threat to health, safety and life from polluting a natural resource.

I hope that state of Mn comes up with some actual evidence to support any regulation. I suspect the state of Mn will act to study this because water issues are becoming more important here. For far too long, the state has taken water for granted.

In my region, some Amish operate puppy mills in deplorable conditions. I realize that the following reveals a rather regrettable side to my nature, but, in general, I could care less about their threats to their alleged "religious freedom" when in comes to health and safety.

Please note: this only is in regards to so called gray water: NOT toilet contents. I believe the Amish use outhouses.

Whether or not "gray water" poses a threat to the health and safety of other users of that groundwater is an empirical issue. I would hope that the state of Mn gets on board in a well-grounded scientific study to determine what effects and which concentrations (if any) cause preventable health effects on others and the environment.

I can't imagine the Government not having a right to regulating the protection of the water table. It is one of those, 'why do we need to prove this?!' sort of things.

 

[Toni]

I found two somewhat conflicting studies of the safety of untreated gray water:

Environmental impact and health risks associated with greywater irrigation: a case study - PubMed

There is an increasing trend to use greywater for irrigation in households. This is partly due to the notion that greywater is of better quality than wastewater and therefore does not need extensive treatment beyond addressing public health issues. The aim of the study was to evaluate the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Health studies on greywater - Greywater Action

There are many studies on the safety of reusing greywater. A consensus among studies is that greywater is not safe to ingest, and thus greywater systems should keep greywater in pipes and soaking into the ground to prevent accidental ingestion. This page contains summaries and links to several...

greywateraction.org

 

[TV and credit cards]

Their practices (modern uses) depend on the community they belong to.

A large Amish community of about 36,000 exists in Northeast-Central Ohio, centered on Holmes County and extending into surrounding counties.[28] The Holmes Old Order Amish affiliation, with 140 church districts out of 221 in the Holmes County Amish settlement in 2009, is the main and dominant Amish affiliation.[29] Holmes County houses the highest percentage of Amish of any U.S. county, currently 42 percent of the population, and experts speculate that by 2027, Holmes County could become the first county in the US where more than half the residents were Amish.[30] The Amish & Mennonite Heritage Center in Berlin explains traditional ways of the Amish and provides an illustrated history for visitors in its 10-foot-by-265-foot mural.[31]

The overall Amish population of the area, centered on Holmes County, is the largest Amish community in the world.[28] Called locally "Amish Country", it draws many visitors to the county, thus making tourism an important sector of the local economy.

In Holmes County Amish Settlements there are several Old Order Amish affiliations. The Holmes Old Order Amish affiliation is the main and original affiliation, the Swartzentruber Amish with three subgroups, that originated in 1917 in Holmes County, are the most conservative Amish in Holmes county. There are also Andy Weaver Amish(formed 1952), Stutzman-Troyer Amish, Old Order Tobe Amish and Roman Amish on the conservative side, whereas the New Order Amish (formed in the early 1960s), the New Order Tobe Amish the New Order Amish Christian Fellowship are on the more progressive side. Holmes County is home of more Amish affiliations than any other place in the world.[32][33]

At what point in time will this grey water affect the water table? I'm sure these folks have been there and draining their grey water directly onto the surface of the land for decades if not centuries. If it hasn't affected the ground water yet, what is the concern?

And this is just horseshit:

Filmore County has been pursuing the case against the Schwartzentruber Amish community since 2006, and at one point the county asked for an order to declare the Amish homes uninhabitable if they did not install septic systems.

What dickery. To cause such distress among these good people.
Of all the god awful stuff that leaches into the soil from farms and golf courses, let's go after these tiny groups of pacifists who ask for nothing and are always willing to lend a hand.

 

[Toni]

Their practices (modern uses) depend on the community they belong to.

A large Amish community of about 36,000 exists in Northeast-Central Ohio, centered on Holmes County and extending into surrounding counties.[28] The Holmes Old Order Amish affiliation, with 140 church districts out of 221 in the Holmes County Amish settlement in 2009, is the main and dominant Amish affiliation.[29] Holmes County houses the highest percentage of Amish of any U.S. county, currently 42 percent of the population, and experts speculate that by 2027, Holmes County could become the first county in the US where more than half the residents were Amish.[30] The Amish & Mennonite Heritage Center in Berlin explains traditional ways of the Amish and provides an illustrated history for visitors in its 10-foot-by-265-foot mural.[31]

The overall Amish population of the area, centered on Holmes County, is the largest Amish community in the world.[28] Called locally "Amish Country", it draws many visitors to the county, thus making tourism an important sector of the local economy.

In Holmes County Amish Settlements there are several Old Order Amish affiliations. The Holmes Old Order Amish affiliation is the main and original affiliation, the Swartzentruber Amish with three subgroups, that originated in 1917 in Holmes County, are the most conservative Amish in Holmes county. There are also Andy Weaver Amish(formed 1952), Stutzman-Troyer Amish, Old Order Tobe Amish and Roman Amish on the conservative side, whereas the New Order Amish (formed in the early 1960s), the New Order Tobe Amish the New Order Amish Christian Fellowship are on the more progressive side. Holmes County is home of more Amish affiliations than any other place in the world.[32][33]

At what point in time will this grey water affect the water table? I'm sure these folks have been there and draining their grey water directly onto the surface of the land for decades if not centuries. If it hasn't affected the ground water yet, what is the concern?

And this is just horseshit:

Filmore County has been pursuing the case against the Schwartzentruber Amish community since 2006, and at one point the county asked for an order to declare the Amish homes uninhabitable if they did not install septic systems.

What dickery. To cause such distress among these good people.
Of all the god awful stuff that leaches into the soil from farms and golf courses, let's go after these tiny groups of pacifists who ask for nothing and are always willing to lend a hand.

So I did a little more investigation to understand why Filmore county was so adamant. Here is an article re: environmental concerns, with respect to water contamination in Filmore County which has a lot of karst. Note: in this article is included a map showing karst. Filmore county is in the red area, which is most at reasonable sk for groundwater contamination:

Protecting water in karst regions

Image A feature of kar

www.pca.state.mn.us

Either MN did not do a good job of presenting valid environmental considerations or this court is just batshit.

 

[laughing dog]

Their practices (modern uses) depend on the community they belong to.

A large Amish community of about 36,000 exists in Northeast-Central Ohio, centered on Holmes County and extending into surrounding counties.[28] The Holmes Old Order Amish affiliation, with 140 church districts out of 221 in the Holmes County Amish settlement in 2009, is the main and dominant Amish affiliation.[29] Holmes County houses the highest percentage of Amish of any U.S. county, currently 42 percent of the population, and experts speculate that by 2027, Holmes County could become the first county in the US where more than half the residents were Amish.[30] The Amish & Mennonite Heritage Center in Berlin explains traditional ways of the Amish and provides an illustrated history for visitors in its 10-foot-by-265-foot mural.[31]

The overall Amish population of the area, centered on Holmes County, is the largest Amish community in the world.[28] Called locally "Amish Country", it draws many visitors to the county, thus making tourism an important sector of the local economy.

In Holmes County Amish Settlements there are several Old Order Amish affiliations. The Holmes Old Order Amish affiliation is the main and original affiliation, the Swartzentruber Amish with three subgroups, that originated in 1917 in Holmes County, are the most conservative Amish in Holmes county. There are also Andy Weaver Amish(formed 1952), Stutzman-Troyer Amish, Old Order Tobe Amish and Roman Amish on the conservative side, whereas the New Order Amish (formed in the early 1960s), the New Order Tobe Amish the New Order Amish Christian Fellowship are on the more progressive side. Holmes County is home of more Amish affiliations than any other place in the world.[32][33]

At what point in time will this grey water affect the water table? I'm sure these folks have been there and draining their grey water directly onto the surface of the land for decades if not centuries. If it hasn't affected the ground water yet, what is the concern?

And this is just horseshit:

Filmore County has been pursuing the case against the Schwartzentruber Amish community since 2006, and at one point the county asked for an order to declare the Amish homes uninhabitable if they did not install septic systems.

What dickery. To cause such distress among these good people.
Of all the god awful stuff that leaches into the soil from farms and golf courses, let's go after these tiny groups of pacifists who ask for nothing and are always willing to lend a hand.

The notion that Amish are necessarily "good people" depends on one's standards. IMO, good people do not treat animals poorly which the Amish do in my neck of the woods.

I agree that runoff from golf course and farms needs serious addressing, but that does not absolve other forms of runoff and contamination from potential action.

Furthermore, I wonder how do these Amish deal with toilet water and other sewage? One would expect that treatment of that type of sewage would also work for gray water.

 

[laughing dog]

Their practices (modern uses) depend on the community they belong to.

A large Amish community of about 36,000 exists in Northeast-Central Ohio, centered on Holmes County and extending into surrounding counties.[28] The Holmes Old Order Amish affiliation, with 140 church districts out of 221 in the Holmes County Amish settlement in 2009, is the main and dominant Amish affiliation.[29] Holmes County houses the highest percentage of Amish of any U.S. county, currently 42 percent of the population, and experts speculate that by 2027, Holmes County could become the first county in the US where more than half the residents were Amish.[30] The Amish & Mennonite Heritage Center in Berlin explains traditional ways of the Amish and provides an illustrated history for visitors in its 10-foot-by-265-foot mural.[31]

The overall Amish population of the area, centered on Holmes County, is the largest Amish community in the world.[28] Called locally "Amish Country", it draws many visitors to the county, thus making tourism an important sector of the local economy.

In Holmes County Amish Settlements there are several Old Order Amish affiliations. The Holmes Old Order Amish affiliation is the main and original affiliation, the Swartzentruber Amish with three subgroups, that originated in 1917 in Holmes County, are the most conservative Amish in Holmes county. There are also Andy Weaver Amish(formed 1952), Stutzman-Troyer Amish, Old Order Tobe Amish and Roman Amish on the conservative side, whereas the New Order Amish (formed in the early 1960s), the New Order Tobe Amish the New Order Amish Christian Fellowship are on the more progressive side. Holmes County is home of more Amish affiliations than any other place in the world.[32][33]

At what point in time will this grey water affect the water table? I'm sure these folks have been there and draining their grey water directly onto the surface of the land for decades if not centuries. If it hasn't affected the ground water yet, what is the concern?

And this is just horseshit:

Filmore County has been pursuing the case against the Schwartzentruber Amish community since 2006, and at one point the county asked for an order to declare the Amish homes uninhabitable if they did not install septic systems.

What dickery. To cause such distress among these good people.
Of all the god awful stuff that leaches into the soil from farms and golf courses, let's go after these tiny groups of pacifists who ask for nothing and are always willing to lend a hand.

So I did a little more investigation to understand why Filmore county was so adamant. Here is an article re: environmental concerns, with respect to water contamination in Filmore County which has a lot of karst. Note: in this article is included a map showing karst. Filmore county is in the red area, which is most at reasonable sk for groundwater contamination:

Protecting water in karst regions

Image A feature of kar

www.pca.state.mn.us

Either MN did not do a good job of presenting valid environmental considerations or this court is just batshit.

I think both options are most likely correct.