First Day After Minsk Agreement: Kiev Forces Resume Shelling of Donbas

[tupac chopra]

Crimea does not want to be part of Ukraine. Do you want to force them to be part of Ukraine?

What a load of bull. The crimean vote was held when it was occupied by pro russian forces, and russian military. Saying that they didn't want to be part of Ukraine is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. Even if they didn't want to be part of Ukraine, russias involvement in Crimea is despicable. Moving you military in,

Russia already had up to 25,000 troops there and leases on the naval bases out to around 2040. Not toi mention the strong historical ties.
They looked after their interests, for sure though. The alternative was to allow the chaos in Ukraine to come to Crimea. They regarded and still regard I presume, Ukraine to be "occupied territory, and I can see their argument, in the light of the US/NATO coup which ousted a democratically elected leader.

They have made it abundantly clear they will not stand for NATO bases on their borders. I just hope it doesn't lead to a bigger war with bigger weapons.

Too much foreign policy is based on "game theory" for my liking

 

[Ford]

Too much foreign policy is based on "game theory" for my liking

Yeah, it is so much better to base foreign policy on machismo, ethnic identity, and nostalgic nationalism for your once powerful empire. Bonus points if you base your policy on petulant reactions to perceived insults. That's the best way to go, really.

 

[arkirk]

What a load of bull. The crimean vote was held when it was occupied by pro russian forces, and russian military. Saying that they didn't want to be part of Ukraine is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. Even if they didn't want to be part of Ukraine, russias involvement in Crimea is despicable. Moving you military in,

Russia already had up to 25,000 troops there and leases on the naval bases out to around 2040. Not toi mention the strong historical ties.
They looked after their interests, for sure though. The alternative was to allow the chaos in Ukraine to come to Crimea. They regarded and still regard I presume, Ukraine to be "occupied territory, and I can see their argument, in the light of the US/NATO coup which ousted a democratically elected leader.

They have made it abundantly clear they will not stand for NATO bases on their borders. I just hope it doesn't lead to a bigger war with bigger weapons.

Too much foreign policy is based on "game theory" for my liking

Be careful to not jump in my face but I have an observation on this and other similar conflicts....It all depends on where you start your narrative whether you regard either side out of line. Both sides have their very obvious flaws. All our involvement does is to sharpen differences and provide weapons that leads to more violence. I am not a Putin fan at all, but it does appear that if NATO wants to keep pushing eastward, he has good reason to push back. There WAS a very real coup in Kiev. There also was a gentleman's agreement between non-Ukranians and conditions of separation from U.S.S.R. that led to Ukraine becoming a separate nation.

When you say a country is not keeping its word, you always have to ask whose word? In our country and Russia, past leaders' words can be wiped out by changes in leadership.

 

[tupac chopra]

The ceasefire was to take effect on sunday, so technically it's not a breach, but it doesn't really bode well. The separatists are still shelling Debaltseve as well, so both sides are pretty much continuing as they were.

Why am I not surprised that Sputnik News fails to even mention the separatist/Russian shelling?

"We are ceasing fire everywhere but inner regions of DPR. Any attempt of [Kiev soldiers] to leave the 'cauldron' [Debaltseve encirclement] will be stopped. I have already given this order," Alexander Zakharchenko told reporters.
"There is not a single word about Debaltseve in [Minsk] agreements. That means that Ukraine simply betrayed 5,000 people in the 'cauldron'," Zakharchenko said.

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150214/1018270783.html#ixzz3RlZZjYhO

One must wonder why Poroshenko didn't try to save these people?

 

[tupac chopra]

Too much foreign policy is based on "game theory" for my liking

Yeah, it is so much better to base foreign policy on machismo, ethnic identity, and nostalgic nationalism for your once powerful empire. Bonus points if you base your policy on petulant reactions to perceived insults. That's the best way to go, really.

No. It is better to sit down and talk. Find out what the other side wants. See if it is possible to come to a peaceful solution.

 

[Ford]

Yeah, it is so much better to base foreign policy on machismo, ethnic identity, and nostalgic nationalism for your once powerful empire. Bonus points if you base your policy on petulant reactions to perceived insults. That's the best way to go, really.

No. It is better to sit down and talk. Find out what the other side wants. See if it is possible to come to a peaceful solution.

Which is exactly what Russia is doing in Ukraine! They're totally not supporting any separatists with weapons, ammunition, and "volunteers" at all. Nope. Russia is just begging to sit down and have a nice talk. Nothing else. They love peace, after all.

 

[tupac chopra]

If you want to understand Putin read what he himself says.
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.au/2014/10/putins-speech-at-valdai-club-full.html

 

[Ford]

If you want to understand Putin read what he himself says.

Peaceful men are always honest in what they say. All praise Putin!


(p.s. I've temporarily changed my mind about reporting you to our mutual masters at the Kremlin. Keep presenting the proper information, continue to demonstrate your loyalty to the party, and you'll be safe.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Be careful to not jump in my face but I have an observation on this and other similar conflicts....It all depends on where you start your narrative whether you regard either side out of line. Both sides have their very obvious flaws. All our involvement does is to sharpen differences and provide weapons that leads to more violence. I am not a Putin fan at all, but it does appear that if NATO wants to keep pushing eastward, he has good reason to push back. There WAS a very real coup in Kiev. There also was a gentleman's agreement between non-Ukranians and conditions of separation from U.S.S.R. that led to Ukraine becoming a separate nation.

When you say a country is not keeping its word, you always have to ask whose word? In our country and Russia, past leaders' words can be wiped out by changes in leadership.

It's not that NATO wants to push eastward, it's that the ex-Russian republics want it's protection against Russia because they don't want to be gobbled up again.

 

[lpetrich]

And isn't it amazing how all of this has happened without any influence whatsoever from Russia? Not a single soldier, tank, or weapons system has crossed the border between Russia and Western Russia Eastern Ukraine, all while great glorious leader Putin has been preaching peace!

Astonishing, really.

Even more astonishing is how for a over a year of intense fighting they manage to come up with plentiful ammunition, shells, rockets, and fuel for their armored forces and artillery regiments. Who knew that particular area of Ukraine had the all the oil wells, refineries, factories, dies, and the various raw material mines necessary to field a modern army through intense combat?

Rumor has it the ordinance it is a perfect replica of Russian made stuff. Wow.

Finally, something that I agree with maxparrish on.

That's why I like to call it Putin's Bay of Pigs. Perhaps we should rename the Sea of Azov the Sea of Pigs in honor of this comparison.

The original Bay of Pigs invasion was presented as being by some Cuban refugees who wanted to take back their country from the Communists, and to do so without any help from the Yanqui gringo imperialists. But in fact, they were trained by the CIA, and they got other support from the Yanqui gringo imperialists. It was a miserable flop, but the head Yanqui gringo, JFK himself, had the decency to own up to it.

This current fighting is being presented by the ethnic-Russian rebels and the Russian news media as an exact equivalent, of disgruntled ethnic Russians rising up against their Ukrainian oppressors without military support from Russia itself. But Russian military support it has been getting, and a lot of it, like the "little green men" fighting with the rebels.

 

[Jayjay]

"We are ceasing fire everywhere but inner regions of DPR. Any attempt of [Kiev soldiers] to leave the 'cauldron' [Debaltseve encirclement] will be stopped. I have already given this order," Alexander Zakharchenko told reporters.
"There is not a single word about Debaltseve in [Minsk] agreements. That means that Ukraine simply betrayed 5,000 people in the 'cauldron'," Zakharchenko said.

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150214/1018270783.html#ixzz3RlZZjYhO

One must wonder why Poroshenko didn't try to save these people?

Right, says Sputnik News. At least it confirms that the separatists never had any intention to respect the ceasefire.

Where in the agreement does it say that ceasefire doesn't apply to "inner regions"?

 

[Jayjay]

What's going to happen now is that the rebels will keep fighting until they take Debaltseve. There is no way Ukraine can hold it without ceasefire. Afterwards, maybe the ceasefire will finally take effect, unless the rebels find some other village they think they can take.

Ukrainian army is in such a sorry state that they are not in a position to make any demands, or even mount a credible offensive elsewhere to retaliate. I think Poroshenko knows this.

 

[tupac chopra]

BBC reporters might be amongst the most stupid people on the planet and probably should soon be up for a Darwin Award.
BBC Reporter Almost Killed by Ukrainian Shell While Accusing Rebels of Shelling

In one more incredibly biased TV report from the Donetsk airport, a BBC journalist started accusing Donetsk self defense forces of breaking the ceasefire while almost getting killed by a Ukrainian "peace-loving" sticking-to-ceasefire shell.

First, Ian Pannell, international BBC corespondent, implicitly accuses rebels of a "scorched earth policy".

Than in an almost surreal moment while saying that artillery fire "appears" to be mostly "outgoing", there's a clear and visible evidence of incoming Ukrainian fire, resulting in an dangerous explosion extremely close to and directly behind him.

Fortunately enough "outgoing fire" hasn't landed on his thick head.
The shells at 1:03, 1:14 and 1:24 are most definitely incoming shots since one can hear the "sizzle sound".

It is even more unbelievable that only moments after surviving Ukrainian shelling, the BBC reporter, instead of stating the obvious—that they were almost killed by Ukrainian shelling—has the audacity to state ludicrous claims that rebels are shelling themselves; thus implicitly backing up Ukrainian point of view.

To certain extent, we feel compassion with BBC employees since they need to stick to the official Westminster propaganda line ("It's always Russia's fault") or risk being demoted or losing their jobs.

If you want to go up the career ladder, self-imposed censorship is a must for every journalist working in the Western mainstream media

 

[Loren Pechtel]

BBC reporters might be amongst the most stupid people on the planet and probably should soon be up for a Darwin Award.
BBC Reporter Almost Killed by Ukrainian Shell While Accusing Rebels of Shelling

You're falling for propaganda.


The rebels are still firing, the Ukrainians are trying to counter-battery them. The shells are going both ways.

I do agree he's looking for a Darwin wandering around a war zone like that.

 

[Harry Bosch]

You're falling for propaganda. The rebels are still firing, the Ukrainians are trying to counter-battery them. The shells are going both ways. I do agree he's looking for a Darwin wandering around a war zone like that.

Good heavens! Tupac falling for propaganda?!!!

 

[dx713]

What's going to happen now is that the rebels will keep fighting until they take Debaltseve. There is no way Ukraine can hold it without ceasefire. Afterwards, maybe the ceasefire will finally take effect, unless the rebels find some other village they think they can take.

Ukrainian army is in such a sorry state that they are not in a position to make any demands, or even mount a credible offensive elsewhere to retaliate. I think Poroshenko knows this.

First half of the prediction now filled.
Let's hope the second half follows your first proposition...