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Five hundred years error in ancient history chronology

humbleman said:
It depends of how much closer.
You tell me! Please!

The idea that Mars had sons was mentioned from ancient times. At no point did anyone see any satellites of Mars. Swift was making an educated guess based on the facts observed in his times: One, Earth and Jupiter had moons, so it was likely that Mars did too (the theory that the further out you get in the solar system, the more moons you have. Not exactly true, but reasonable to guess according to the available evidence) Also since no one had seen the moons, they must be small and close to Mars. His educated guess turned out to be correct. Plenty of other people made guesses, some educated and some not, that turned out not to be correct. Edgar Rice Burroughs, for example.

When discovered, the moons were named after the sons of Mars. I have no idea what afflicts you to think that because Mars' moons are named Phobos and Deimos, that the mention of these characters in old myths confirms that they knew about the moons.

How much closer, who knows?

About how the solar system was in the past no one has the minimum idea based on facts.

Only the ancient knew about it when they observed the skies.

If, by chance, you have the researcher ID to have access to manuscripts and references of all kind, then you are going to be surprised of how much information never reaches the general public. It is a kind of "classified" information.

Velikovsky was found guilty of heresy when he published even letters from biblical times kings.

That dinosaurs were warm blood was known since 1800s but the information was never given and people always related dinosaurs with reptiles. After some leaks and the obvious finding by private organizations discovering the warm blood evidence, it is when slowly but surely images of dinosaurs with feathers appeared in science magazines and other publications.

That time doesn't exist at all is already known in science, but the fantasy of relativity is forced to be broadcasted because is like production of cigarettes, many people have work and are fed thanks to such a fantasy.

There are events showing that celestial bodies of great size perturbed our planet.

Ancient history is based on those events as well.

- - - Updated - - -

That quote from the Popul Vuh is made up. They didn't have a single creator god. They had several gods, who made several blunders before managing to create humankind. I've read the Popul Vuh.

Of course, you never actually bothered to check his primary sources, right? You fell for the old trick of attributing a made up quote from an obscure source, and then juxtaposing it with a correct quote from a more well known source, so that the reader assumes the one is as accurate as the other.

Actually I have the Popol Vuh book, and I remember that indeed, there is a mention of a Creator.
 
I still wonder, what the hell Sagan discovered?
Venus's greenhouse effect.

Lets see now how Sagan is slave of modern mysticism in the chapter following his criticism against Newton. The famous case of the Siberia explosion.
Yes, Tunguska.

"antimatter" Ha ha ha ha

...
"Mini black holes"... ha ha ha ha...
...
"a spaceship of some unimaginably advanced extraterrestrial civilization "... ha ha ha ha....

This guy is showing that the scientific community was a circus with a bunch of clowns.

He concluded

There seems to be only one explanation consistent with all the facts: In 1908 a piece of comet hit the Earth.
Here, with Carl Sagan, you have another supporter of Velikovsky.
A comet fragment hitting the Earth is not the same as planets bouncing across the Solar System.

As to the extraterrestrial-spaceship hypothesis, I've written a story that features it: "Tunguska and the Titanic". From it: "When our investigators arrived at the scene, they found a huge explosion site, with trees knocked down for miles around, and with nothing remaining of the ship. Nothing."

The book Cosmos is full of pictures, the greater percent of mystic origin, a few with scientific background.

Sagan just collected information from other existing sources and resume them in a book. He didn't discover anything, he was just a showman.
It's a popularization. humbleman, you are making yourself look VERY silly.
 
The bible describes a dark cloud lasting 40 years due to the passing by of a huge body (planet) near our earth.
Citation needed. Chapter and verse, please.

Milankovitch cycles are consistent with Venus having been in its present orbit well into the Proterozoic.
It happens that such Proterozoic era never was millions of years ago but recently some thousands years ago.
What geological illiteracy :rolleyes:.
 
To make things fit his scenario, IV had to finagle Egyptian history, moving bits of Egyptian history around to fit his narrative. The problem here is that there are many tombs of high ranking Egyptians who left biographies of their lives, including the various Pharaohs they served under. Which exposes IV for the incompetent he was. Rohl is also considered a charlatan by competent Egyptologists for similar reasons. He tries to rewrite Egyptian history to fit a religious agenda.
 
In the part of the Popul Vuh where they are describing the creation of humans, the gods, while unnamed are definitely plural. "We have not done well." Who translated your version?
 
Venus's greenhouse effect.

Sure, and Al Gore invented the internet.

Next?

Yes, Tunguska.

"antimatter" Ha ha ha ha

...
"Mini black holes"... ha ha ha ha...
...
"a spaceship of some unimaginably advanced extraterrestrial civilization "... ha ha ha ha....

This guy is showing that the scientific community was a circus with a bunch of clowns.

He concluded

There seems to be only one explanation consistent with all the facts: In 1908 a piece of comet hit the Earth.
Here, with Carl Sagan, you have another supporter of Velikovsky.
A comet fragment hitting the Earth is not the same as planets bouncing across the Solar System.

You weren't when that celestial body hit earth, and you weren't when a planet passed close to earth.
As to the extraterrestrial-spaceship hypothesis, I've written a story that features it: "Tunguska and the Titanic". From it: "When our investigators arrived at the scene, they found a huge explosion site, with trees knocked down for miles around, and with nothing remaining of the ship. Nothing."

False. A piece of the side door was discovered but is kept in secret because it has a sticker saying "Made in China".

As my uncle says, get out of "heer"!... lol

The book Cosmos is full of pictures, the greater percent of mystic origin, a few with scientific background.

Sagan just collected information from other existing sources and resume them in a book. He didn't discover anything, he was just a showman.

It's a popularization. humbleman, you are making yourself look VERY silly.

It is called "showman": entertainment.
 
To make things fit his scenario, IV had to finagle Egyptian history, moving bits of Egyptian history around to fit his narrative. The problem here is that there are many tombs of high ranking Egyptians who left biographies of their lives, including the various Pharaohs they served under. Which exposes IV for the incompetent he was. Rohl is also considered a charlatan by competent Egyptologists for similar reasons. He tries to rewrite Egyptian history to fit a religious agenda.

Do you know what?

You do have a very good point.

And I say it, because I would like to see what "date" those records wrote for the biographies.

Understand my point: I'm not asking what date Egyptian historians have establish for those inscriptions but actually what "date" the ones who inscribe those biographies wrote in pillars.

If the writers in pillars didn't establish a "date" based on their way to start a chronological existence since the first pharaoh, then the only way to establish the date of their existence as pharaohs is by comparing the actions they did with other cultures.

This is an example based with more recent events with pharaohs of Egypt.

Lets say Cleopatra. You can use the narration written by Egyptians, and you can also use writings made by Romans.

Then, you establish dates with more accuracy.

So, Velikovsky compared the acts made by those pharaohs biographies in pillars with records from other cultures which interacted with Egypt in those times.

Here is where Velikovsky found the great 500 years error.

Velikovsky did better than other orthodox historians.

Another example.

In the bible, in the book of exodus, there is the mention of the "land of Ramses". Perhaps this is what created the fable that Ramses II was the pharaoh when the exodus happened. Even Manetho was confused in his chronology when he wrote that Moses caused great harm to Egypt while "subduing it", and historians followed religiously what this Egyptian historian wrote several centuries later. (280 BC)
 
In the part of the Popul Vuh where they are describing the creation of humans, the gods, while unnamed are definitely plural. "We have not done well." Who translated your version?

OK, you made me go to the attic and pick up one of the Popol Vuh books, because I did remember I read about a "creator" in that book.

Your point about "what translation I do have" is excellent. In another topic here in these forums I posted that the translation I have is different from the translation posted online by another translator. (the book is about Humboldt and his travels).

OK, this is the "genesis" of the Popol Vuh according to translation made by Dennis Tedlock:

This is the beginning of the ANCIENT WORD, here is this place called Quiche. Here we shall inscribe, we shall implant the Ancient Word, the potential and source for everything done in the citadel of Qhiche, in the nation of Quiche people.

And here we shall take up the demonstration, revelation, and account of how things were put in shadow and brought to light

By the Maker, Modeler, named Bearer. Begetter.
Hunahpu Possum, Hunahpu Coyote.
Great White Peccary, Tapir.
Sovereign Plumed Serpent.
Heart of the Lake, Heart of the Sea.
Maker of the blue-Green Plate.
Maker of the Blue-Green Bowl....


....

....

... Whatever there is that might be is simply not there: only the pooled water, only the calm sea, only it alone is pooled.
Whatever might be be is simply not there: only murmurs, riples, in the dark, in the night. Only the Maker, Modeler alone, Sovereign Plumed Serpent, the Bearer, Begetters are in the water, a glittering light. They are there, they are enclosed in quetzal feathers, in blue-green.


The translation by Allen J. Christenson is not much different

THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE ANCIENT TRADITIONS of this place called Quiché.HERE we shall write. We shall begin to tell the ancient stories of the beginning, the origin of all that was done in the citadel of Quiché, among the people of the Quiché nation.

Here we shall gather the manifestation, the declaration, the account of the sowingand the dawning
by the Framer and the Shaper, She Who Has Borne Children and....
 
You weren't when that celestial body hit earth, and you weren't when a planet passed close to earth.
I'm guessing that you mean that I wasn't there. Neither were you, humbleman.

Read the book of exodus.
Where in it?

What geological illiteracy :rolleyes:.
Discuss ages according to your chronology is stupid, you have nothing to establish your chronology as factual.
Do I need to give you a graduate-level course in geology?
 
Ah yes, I must yield this point to you. That part is in there. I was recalling the other part, where the creation of humans is described, and attributed to mulitple gods. Like the Bible, the Popul Vuh contains contradictory versions of events.

One point I will not yield is your double standards.

You criticize Lpetrich for 'not being there' to see certain events that happened long ago, even though he has evidence, yet you accept without question, the mythology of various groups when and if they match your preconceptions. I hardly think you accept the Quiche account of creation, yet you accept the verse which you interpret as meaning the planets were closer-a conclusion that is not even natural from the text.
 
Ah yes, I must yield this point to you. That part is in there. I was recalling the other part, where the creation of humans is described, and attributed to mulitple gods. Like the Bible, the Popul Vuh contains contradictory versions of events.

One point I will not yield is your double standards.

You criticize Lpetrich for 'not being there' to see certain events that happened long ago, even though he has evidence, yet you accept without question, the mythology of various groups when and if they match your preconceptions. I hardly think you accept the Quiche account of creation, yet you accept the verse which you interpret as meaning the planets were closer-a conclusion that is not even natural from the text.

Look at it this way: We weren't there is those times.

We have establish today a model based on what we see today.

However, the ancient said different than our point of view.

Between what they say and what we say about past events, they have the reason, we don't.

We want to accommodate things according to our system of ordering them, but unfortunately we don't have the tools to verify our assumptions. While the common belief is that some species never co-existed with humans, there are lots of images made by ancients which show different.

Then, you and others don't want to recognize you were wrong, your pride pushes you to ignore those amounts of evidence showing that planets passed close to earth, that species considered extincted coexisted with humans, or were seen alive by humans, and more, because you have invented theories saying the contrary.

It is not my fault that you and others have decided to play "the stupid", and have decided to follow good for nothing theories, such is your problem, not mine.

I'm here showing that your decision is the incorrect one, that what you believe in is more fantasies than the ones you say the ancients wrote in the past.

500 years chronological error, and current orthodox historians are making you an idiot, they are the ones pulling your legs, there is lots of evidence proving them wrong.
 
By analogy, we attribute disease to a variety of causes; microbes, parasites, genetic defects, vitamin deficiency, etc.

The ancients attributed them to evil spirits.

Were they correct? Is that what you are saying? After all, they saw the evidence back then, and made their conclusions. We can't see what they saw, therefore, we can't say they were wrong.

I bet you will say that this is not a fair analogy. The trouble with you is that you accept the many gifts that knowledge has given us, while rejecting a select few, because you have the luxury to.
 
By analogy, we attribute disease to a variety of causes; microbes, parasites, genetic defects, vitamin deficiency, etc.

The ancients attributed them to evil spirits.

Were they correct? Is that what you are saying? After all, they saw the evidence back then, and made their conclusions. We can't see what they saw, therefore, we can't say they were wrong.

I bet you will say that this is not a fair analogy. The trouble with you is that you accept the many gifts that knowledge has given us, while rejecting a select few, because you have the luxury to.

Then, we can use the weight scale.

Can you see viruses, microbes with naked eyes?

No?

Well, they can't either. They knew some agent was causing those deaths, but for them the agent was invisible. They attributed to that agent the status of "evil spirit". However, the historical event indeed happened.

On the other hand, they knew what storms were, earthquakes, tsunamis, etc. They, of course, gave credit for those to a similar agent, like a god, evil spirits, and so forth. But also, they attributed disasters to planets, like Mars, Venus, called with other names in different cultures. These planets perturbed planet earth at that point that ancient civilizations were afraid because the several consequences they suffered. They started to make "human sacrifices" to calm the "fury" of those gods.

Now well, the English word "god" we use means a powerful being, same is the meaning of "elohim" in the bible, which means powerful, force, judge, spirit, etc.

The meaning of this word used by ancients according to their use is actually pointing a powerful agent causing those disasters.

If the agent was wind alone, then they should build temples to the wind, not so to planet Mars.

If you meditate about their behavior, the ancients who build constructions which today still impressing due to their technological and architectural knowledge, you want to "degrade" them as "savages, uncivilized, ignorant, deluded, etc" just because they worshiped planets and made temples for them.

Such makes no sense. Even today, great scientists reaching great discoveries are not ignorant, uncivilized, savage or deluded because they believe in God.

So, this is not about "selecting" some historical events or ancient scripts, but researching them to understand what happened. As you said very well right above, it was a virus and not an evil spirit, OK, such is granted, but the event happened.

____________________________________________________

Lets use a legend or custom by Navajo Indians.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...1c0-9dc4-c0edcc1cd16e/?utm_term=.0f6afdded0b2

In essence, the medicine men were describing the mouse as a carrier of the mysterious illness.

The mouse has always been an important creature to the Navajo. It figures in the creation story, in which the revered rodent spreads the seeds of life throughout the world.

But the mouse is also dreaded as a killer of young Navajos and as a carrier of disease. According to legend, when a mouse enters a Navajo dwelling, called a hogan, and sees food lying about, he gets angry at the waste or the sloppiness. As punishment, he chooses the "strongest and finest" young Navajos to die.

The legend is apparently the underpinning of traditions still common among the Navajo. For instance, when a mouse runs over clothing, the clothing is burned.

"Almost every Navajo family has that tradition," Muneta said. "Missionaries used to ridicule the Navajo for burning clothing."

He said this "special warning" about the mouse extends to no other animal. For the first time in his life, Muneta said, he was beginning to understand why.

There is also a legend where mice killed an entire army.

Today, it is known that mice might carries Hantavirus, which is the cause of deaths even recently.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/21/us/virus-that-caused-deaths-among-navajos-is-isolated.html

The legend is vindicated. Even further, a story of water covering high rocks in a coast of England was written in a poem. Later, recently, it was discovered that yes indeed, water reached those areas in times where the poem was written. As far as everybody knew, there are no other records of such an event ever happened, but the poem describes it and was later confirmed.

Of course, like today, many manuscripts can be just imaginations written like today's poems and novels, however, when different cultures write about similar events happening in the same era, is when those records must be reviewed and find out what happened.
 
The fact that we can see better with the tools we now have at hand is central to our argument!
 
Modern physics tells us that massive planets cannot skip around the heavens like gambolling lambs Velikovsky et al that try to claim they did are full of shit.
 
Modern physics tells us that massive planets cannot skip around the heavens like gambolling lambs Velikovsky et al that try to claim they did are full of shit.

Modern physics?

Where?

How they have found that?

How do they know?

Explain.

The planets, especially large planets like Jupiter, Neptune, et al are huge and quite massive. The forces to move them are truly immense. There is no way to make them move around as per IV et al. And then settle down in their present orbits. It is utterly impossible, scientifically speaking. Velikovsky didn't realize this, but astrophysicists do.
 
Modern physics tells us that massive planets cannot skip around the heavens like gambolling lambs Velikovsky et al that try to claim they did are full of shit.

Modern physics?

Where?

How they have found that?

How do they know?

Explain.

The planets, especially large planets like Jupiter, Neptune, et al are huge and quite massive. The forces to move them are truly immense. There is no way to make them move around as per IV et al. And then settle down in their present orbits. It is utterly impossible, scientifically speaking. Velikovsky didn't realize this, but astrophysicists do.

Velikovsky solely mentioned orbital change or exchange between Mars and Venus. Jupiter was affected as the birth place of Venus or as being hit by Venus.

On the other hand, no one has even the minimum evidence of how planets formed the solar system, how they ended in their orbits. Last observed body out of our solar system came in a different angle of traveling, "hit" the orbital force created by the Sun -because gravity is a force and this force is caused by motion in action- and this body "bounced" and went away. This event didn't take "millions of years" to happen.

With this observation made, I can state that space-time is crap to the square, my position is 100% correct that gravity is a force, and that in base of how gravity can affect the orbit of planets their positions can change at random by the effect of any circumstance which includes collision between planets.

Check the animation in the link, the traveling of the foreign body trapped sporadically by the force of gravity caused by the Sun's motion, and causing the change of direction of that body.

A complete different scenario could happen if the body came from an opposite direction to the gravitational direction generated by the Sun, in this case this body should have encountered some problems to continued its path.

https://scitechdaily.com/a-small-object-a2017-u1-from-deep-space-enters-our-solar-system/

Definitively, some of the current theories of science suck, they are indeed "famous" but they suck, these theories are good for nothing theories and are carrying the knowledge of science to a medieval mysticism, they are retrograded ideas worthy of being nominated as magic and religious beliefs.

Unfortunately, the recognition of these current good for nothing theories can't be accomplished because fanaticism of the followers and profit made by selling them to the public. Your position has not a single solid base foundation, your "calculations" are laughable, in reality you have nothing to contradict what the ancient civilizations recorded in base of what they experienced. They wrote what they saw, while what you use to contradict them is indeed pure mythology.

The ancient mixed what they saw with beliefs originated when they can't comprehend the events themselves, and you are mixing a bunch of abstract mathematics written in a piece of paper with beliefs originated by dudes who lived dreaming in an out of reality life.

You can't explain in base of your theories why earth is slowing, a current event, and you pretend to know how and when other planets changed their orbits... give me a break...
 
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