Florida judicial system: Designed for fairness, it fails to account for prejudice

[RavenSky]

The Herald-Tribune spent a year reviewing tens of millions of records in two state databases — one compiled by the state’s court clerks that tracks criminal cases through every stage of the justice system and the other by the Florida Department of Corrections that notes points scored by felons at sentencing.

Reporters examined more than 85,000 criminal appeals, read through boxes of court documents and crossed the state to interview more than 100 legal experts, advocates and criminal defendants.

The newspaper also built a first-of-its-kind database of Florida’s criminal judges to compare sentencing patterns based on everything from a judge's age and previous work experience to race and political affiliation.

No news organization, university or government agency has ever done such a comprehensive study of sentences handed down by individual judges on a statewide scale.

Among the findings:

• Florida’s sentencing system is broken. When defendants score the same points in the formula used to set criminal punishments — indicating they should receive equal sentences — blacks spend far longer behind bars. There is no consistency between judges in Tallahassee and those in Sarasota.

• The war on drugs exacerbates racial disparities. Police target poor black neighborhoods, funneling more minorities into the system. Once in court, judges are tougher on black drug offenders every step of the way. Nearly half the counties in Florida sentence blacks convicted of felony drug possession to more than double the time of whites, even when their backgrounds are the same.

Across Florida, when a white and black defendant score the same points for the same offense, judges give the black defendant a longer prison stay in 60 percent of felony cases.

For the most serious first-degree crimes, judges sentence blacks to 68 percent more time than whites with identical points.

For burglary, it's 45 percent more.

For battery, it’s 30 percent.

I predict that this is news to no one, and that the same people as always will find a way to deny there is any systematic bias.

Critics of the point system say discrepancies jeopardize the fundamental function of the court, which is held together by the perception that it is fair and unbiased.

by the "perception"...

http://projects.heraldtribune.com/bias/sentencing/

 

[laughing dog]

I'll bet anything this study did not include points for influence of the BLM or "black radicals" on the criminals or add the necessary extra points for being a thug.

 

[prideandfall]

i'm not sure which outcome i find the most predictable: derec, dismal, LP, trausti, or the rest of the racist brigade coming into this thread linking to something off stormfront to prove that more blacks in jail means more blacks are criminals... or the fact that the rest of you yahoos will spend the next 8 pages actually debating them about it as if you're not doing the intellectual equivalent of punching yourself in the tits over and over again by talking to them.

 

[Trausti]

Now that I've been slandered by prideandfall, I'll make the obvious interpretation after reading that article that the authors started with a conclusion and sought to confirm their biases.

“The public thinks judges get to do whatever they want, and that’s just not accurate,” said Lee Haworth, a retired senior judge in Sarasota and former chief of the 12th Circuit. “Judges are just blessing what the prosecutor and defendant agreed to. These sentences were handed to the judges on a silver platter. There’s only a tiny percentage where I think the judges could be responsible for the disparities with things like age, gender or race.”

Lee Haworth, a retired senior judge in Sarasota and former chief of the 12th Circuit, said that in most cases, judges are signing off on sentences that the prosecutor and defendant agreed to.

To be sure, sentences across Florida are negotiated before they reach the judge for final approval. But a Herald-Tribune investigation found the system still leaves judges with the discretion to show mercy.

They just show it more often to the people who look like them.

So an irrefutable explanation is presented but the authors quickly dismiss it because it doesn't fit their narrative. It seems the real issue is access to good legal representation. I suspect that Black defendants are more reliant on the public defender than White defendants. When it comes to plea bargaining with the prosecutor, that probably makes a difference.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Now that I've been slandered by prideandfall, I'll make the obvious interpretation after reading that article that the authors started with a conclusion and sought to confirm their biases.

“The public thinks judges get to do whatever they want, and that’s just not accurate,” said Lee Haworth, a retired senior judge in Sarasota and former chief of the 12th Circuit. “Judges are just blessing what the prosecutor and defendant agreed to. These sentences were handed to the judges on a silver platter. There’s only a tiny percentage where I think the judges could be responsible for the disparities with things like age, gender or race.”

Lee Haworth, a retired senior judge in Sarasota and former chief of the 12th Circuit, said that in most cases, judges are signing off on sentences that the prosecutor and defendant agreed to.

To be sure, sentences across Florida are negotiated before they reach the judge for final approval. But a Herald-Tribune investigation found the system still leaves judges with the discretion to show mercy.

They just show it more often to the people who look like them.

So an irrefutable explanation is presented but the authors quickly dismiss it because it doesn't fit their narrative. It seems the real issue is access to good legal representation. I suspect that Black defendants are more reliant on the public defender than White defendants. When it comes to plea bargaining with the prosecutor, that probably makes a difference.

Possibly, we'd need to see the stats, but there are a lot of piss poor whites that get pulled in as well. But yes, ALWAYS have a good lawyer you trust on your side.

 

[RavenSky]

So an irrefutable explanation is presented but the authors quickly dismiss it because it doesn't fit their narrative. It seems the real issue is access to good legal representation. I suspect that Black defendants are more reliant on the public defender than White defendants. When it comes to plea bargaining with the prosecutor, that probably makes a difference.

Not quite (though I don't dispute that having money also plays a big part in the disparity of our justice system regardless of skin color). The authors didn't "quickly dismiss it because it doesn't fit their narrative" - in fact they obviously acknowledged it... put it in their article, even.

But they also pointed out that this explanation does not account for all of the cases wherein the judges are the ones that issue the sentencing without any negotiated plea deal.

Moreover, since the article is addressing the entire justice system, not just the judges, your emphasis on just the judges in order to dismiss all of the findings of the study is telling.

 

[laughing dog]

Now that I've been slandered by prideandfall,

How is the truth slander?

I'll make the obvious interpretation after reading that article that the authors started with a conclusion and sought to confirm their biases.

Actually there is no way for you to know that. Nor is it a reasonable conclusion from the article. And I am sure the irony of your claim is lost on you.

 

[prideandfall]

Now that I've been slandered by prideandfall

it isn't slander when it's true, and actually since this is technically print form i think it would be libel.

either way, if you don't want to be someone who's actions and behaviors and posts and opinions regularly and consistently get them lumped into the group as a racist, then don't regularly and consistently post opinions that are racist.
it's not my fault you have a predictable pattern of behavior.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Now that I've been slandered by prideandfall, I'll make the obvious interpretation after reading that article that the authors started with a conclusion and sought to confirm their biases.

“The public thinks judges get to do whatever they want, and that’s just not accurate,” said Lee Haworth, a retired senior judge in Sarasota and former chief of the 12th Circuit. “Judges are just blessing what the prosecutor and defendant agreed to. These sentences were handed to the judges on a silver platter. There’s only a tiny percentage where I think the judges could be responsible for the disparities with things like age, gender or race.”

Lee Haworth, a retired senior judge in Sarasota and former chief of the 12th Circuit, said that in most cases, judges are signing off on sentences that the prosecutor and defendant agreed to.

To be sure, sentences across Florida are negotiated before they reach the judge for final approval. But a Herald-Tribune investigation found the system still leaves judges with the discretion to show mercy.

They just show it more often to the people who look like them.

So an irrefutable explanation is presented but the authors quickly dismiss it because it doesn't fit their narrative. It seems the real issue is access to good legal representation. I suspect that Black defendants are more reliant on the public defender than White defendants. When it comes to plea bargaining with the prosecutor, that probably makes a difference.

Thank you for saving me the time to figure out what was really up.

This sounds like the same old issue--the justice system most definitely discriminates against those of low socioeconomic status. While that is an issue it's not evidence of racism.

 

[dismal]

Now that I've been slandered by prideandfall

it isn't slander when it's true, and actually since this is technically print form i think it would be libel.

either way, if you don't want to be someone who's actions and behaviors and posts and opinions regularly and consistently get them lumped into the group as a racist, then don't regularly and consistently post opinions that are racist.
it's not my fault you have a predictable pattern of behavior.

Well, sure as long as you ignore those assholes who are very casual about flinging the term racist around.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

it isn't slander when it's true, and actually since this is technically print form i think it would be libel.

either way, if you don't want to be someone who's actions and behaviors and posts and opinions regularly and consistently get them lumped into the group as a racist, then don't regularly and consistently post opinions that are racist.
it's not my fault you have a predictable pattern of behavior.

Well, sure as long as you ignore those assholes who are very casual about flinging the term racist around.

Well, those people are just a bunch of frigging racists. Who cares what they think?

 

[Trausti]

Now that I've been slandered by prideandfall

it isn't slander when it's true, and actually since this is technically print form i think it would be libel.

either way, if you don't want to be someone who's actions and behaviors and posts and opinions regularly and consistently get them lumped into the group as a racist, then don't regularly and consistently post opinions that are racist.
it's not my fault you have a predictable pattern of behavior.

So if there are facts which do not comport with your worldview - let's call them "hate facts" - then better to throw insults around then have to consider those facts. It's like your a creationist or something.

 

[prideandfall]

Well, sure as long as you ignore those assholes who are very casual about flinging the term racist around.

Well, those people are just a bunch of frigging racists. Who cares what they think?

even worse than that! they're double-reverse triple stamped no takesie backsies mega racists!

 

[prideandfall]

So if there are facts which do not comport with your worldview - let's call them "hate facts" - then better to throw insults around then have to consider those facts. It's like your a creationist or something.

i predicted you'd show up in this thread A. going out of your way to try and deny the observation that relative to committing the same crime and with the same criminal background, black people receive harsher sentences than white people, and B. you'd do it in a way that was either a pathetically hilarious attempt at grievously misinterpreting the data or was just out-and-out white supremacist.

you did... exactly that.

again, if you don't like being called out for what you are, stop being that.
it's not my fault you and the other ilk i mentioned are so predictable you're like an ambulatory stormfront meme.

if you don't want me to point out that you're all predictably racist as shit, stop being predictably racist as shit.

oh and for the rest of you, because i called out two groups in my original post:
don't engage with these numbnuts, you guys just keep encouraging them when you treat their blathering stupidity like something that deserves to be reasoned with.

 

[Trausti]

So if there are facts which do not comport with your worldview - let's call them "hate facts" - then better to throw insults around then have to consider those facts. It's like your a creationist or something.

i predicted you'd show up in this thread A. going out of your way to try and deny the observation that relative to committing the same crime and with the same criminal background, black people receive harsher sentences than white people, and B. you'd do it in a way that was either a pathetically hilarious attempt to grievously misinterpreting the data or was just out-and-out white supremacist.

you did... exactly that.

again, if you don't like being called out for what you are, stop being that.
it's not my fault you're predictable you're like an ambulatory stormfront meme.

So you are allergic to facts? Are you able to discuss matters, even matters that make you uncomfortable, without resorting to insults and name-calling? In prior times, efforts to shout down noticing would label the offender as a witch, heretic, counter-revolutionary, Trotskyist, and so forth. It is unfortunate that despite this history, the moralizing busybodies still roam among us.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

i predicted you'd show up in this thread A. going out of your way to try and deny the observation that relative to committing the same crime and with the same criminal background, black people receive harsher sentences than white people, and B. you'd do it in a way that was either a pathetically hilarious attempt to grievously misinterpreting the data or was just out-and-out white supremacist.

you did... exactly that.

again, if you don't like being called out for what you are, stop being that.
it's not my fault you're predictable you're like an ambulatory stormfront meme.

So you are allergic to facts? Are you able to discuss matters, even matters that make you uncomfortable, without resorting to insults and name-calling? In prior times, efforts to shout down noticing would label the offender as a witch, heretic, counter-revolutionary, Trotskyist, and so forth. It is unfortunate that despite this history, the moralizing busybodies still roam among us.

That's just something that witches and heretics say.

 

[prideandfall]

So you are allergic to facts?

the pearl clutching and facade of detached intellectualism that is shocked and butt hurt by the scurrilous attacks of the ne'er-do-wells is as time honored a tradition as is the blatant racist bullshit that comes before it.

Are you able to discuss matters, even matters that make you uncomfortable, without resorting to insults and name-calling?

1. yes, but that would ostensibly require some kind of facts or discussion of said facts on your part.
2. i didn't insult anyone nor have i done any name calling.

In prior times, efforts to shout down noticing would label the offender as a witch, heretic, counter-revolutionary, Trotskyist, and so forth. It is unfortunate that despite this history, the moralizing busybodies still roam among us.

i'm not moralizing nor am i saying you shouldn't post your hilariously trite and predictable racist garbage, i was just pointing how that it's so same-old same-old i could call it happening before it happened, and i totally did.
more so than the storied magic of being able to predict that a racist poster would make a racist post, i'm just sick and tired of everyone else on this forum catering to the cabal that you're a part of and littering the politics forum with replies to your idiotic nonsense.

 

[RavenSky]

Thank you for saving me the time to figure out what was really up.

This sounds like the same old issue--the justice system most definitely discriminates against those of low socioeconomic status. While that is an issue it's not evidence of racism.

So do you simply assume that Trausti has accurately portrayed the results of the study because his claim aligns with your pre-conceived bias? If so, then I guess it won't do any good to tell you he is wrong, and that you should read the article for yourself.

 

[Trausti]

the pearl clutching and facade of detached intellectualism that is shocked and butt hurt by the scurrilous attacks of the ne'er-do-wells is as time honored a tradition as is the blatant racist bullshit that comes before it.

Are you able to discuss matters, even matters that make you uncomfortable, without resorting to insults and name-calling?

1. yes, but that would ostensibly require some kind of facts or discussion of said facts on your part.
2. i didn't insult anyone nor have i done any name calling.

In prior times, efforts to shout down noticing would label the offender as a witch, heretic, counter-revolutionary, Trotskyist, and so forth. It is unfortunate that despite this history, the moralizing busybodies still roam among us.

i'm not moralizing nor am i saying you shouldn't post your hilariously trite and predictable racist garbage, i'm just sick and tired of everyone else on this forum catering to the cabal that you're a part of and littering the politics forum with replies to your idiotic nonsense.

Now I understand. It's racist to suggest that the reason Black and White defendants might get different plea bargaining results is because of access to public vs. private legal representation. I mean, it makes more sense to go with a Nazi conspiracy; what, with all those Florida judges who meet up at the White Supremacy Conference - bring your swim trunks! - and swap tactics to bring back slavery. Nevermind the absence of facts, it's the narrative uber alles that counts.

I also understand that it is sexist to notice that men are more likely to commit crime. It's sexist to notice that women are more likely to take a break from their careers to focus on family. It's racist to notice that East Asians score high on standardized testing. It's racist to notice that Black children are far more likely to grow up in a single parent home than other children. It's transphobic to notice that men have a Y chromosome. It is best, apparently, to close our eyes, put fingers in our ears, and ignore all that makes us feel uncomfortable. That's the prideandfall way.

 

[dismal]

i predicted you'd show up in this thread A. going out of your way to try and deny the observation that relative to committing the same crime and with the same criminal background, black people receive harsher sentences than white people, and B. you'd do it in a way that was either a pathetically hilarious attempt to grievously misinterpreting the data or was just out-and-out white supremacist.

you did... exactly that.

again, if you don't like being called out for what you are, stop being that.
it's not my fault you're predictable you're like an ambulatory stormfront meme.

So you are allergic to facts? Are you able to discuss matters, even matters that make you uncomfortable, without resorting to insults and name-calling? In prior times, efforts to shout down noticing would label the offender as a witch, heretic, counter-revolutionary, Trotskyist, and so forth. It is unfortunate that despite this history, the moralizing busybodies still roam among us.

Don't forget to call him a racist. Racists like him hate that.

Also helps to establish the pattern of people calling him a racist.