Forgiving murderers

[credoconsolans]

As someone else said, most times the forgiveness is for the benefit of the victim/victim's family so they can move on with their lives and not constantly deal with seething, damaging anger and hatred toward the perp.

It's not magnanimous of them. It's purely for their own needs.

Some strangely low self-esteem, or misled, or religious fanatic actually does forgive the perp for their sake, regardless of whether the perp ever cops to the crime. That seems to me to be a form of control.

I don't think forgiveness is needed at all. You can most certainly despise, hate and wish all sorts of negativity on a person and it not damage your life at all as long as you don't let it.

It's like any strong emotion, like love, don't let it obsess you and you're fine.

No forgiveness necessary.

 

[Random Person]

If you don't let go of the hate, anger and bitterness then the killer has murdered a part of you. I have no idea how a person could do it but forgiveness is the only positive control you could take over the situation.

 

[abaddon]

Hatred comes from being hurt. To keep hating and wishing hurt on another is, unavoidably, to keep on hurting.

That does in fact necessitate forgiveness, understood as synonymous with “letting go”, if a person wants to stop hurting. My dictionary says forgiveness is “to stop feeling angry or resentful against someone for an offense” and I think that can be summed up more simply as “letting go”. There’s no end to the hurt until the person lets go of (ie, in one way or another psychologically resolves) the hate and anger.

Hate and anger are painful experiences though there can be satisfaction in expressing them, and that may be a good and needed part of “letting go”, though there's a danger of fueling it.

Forgiveness is a more direct two-way thing between perp and emotionally wounded person only if the perp’s repentance is needed by the hurt person to psychologically resolve the hurt. That might be necessary for some people and not others.

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Added note: It may be that people are thinking of forgiveness in more religious than psychological terms, where (I think) it’s more an issue of absolving someone of their wrongdoing… Which is entirely different from what I’m talking about.

 

[credoconsolans]

If you don't let go of the hate, anger and bitterness then the killer has murdered a part of you. I have no idea how a person could do it but forgiveness is the only positive control you could take over the situation.

Hatred comes from being hurt. To keep hating and wishing hurt on another is, unavoidably, to keep on hurting.

So a person should deny or pretend they weren't hurt?

That does in fact necessitate forgiveness, understood as synonymous with “letting go”, if a person wants to stop hurting.

Not really sure how a victim or their family should 'let something go' as if it's their fault if they can't.

Hate and anger are painful experiences though there can be satisfaction in expressing them, and that may be a good and needed part of “letting go”, though there's a danger of fueling it.

Nothing wrong with fueling an anger if it's righteous and hasn't been resolved.

 

[laughing dog]

So a person should deny or pretend they weren't hurt?

That has nothing to do with forgiveness.

Not really sure how a victim or their family should 'let something go' as if it's their fault if they can't.

Why are you bringing up straw men? If "letting go" betters their lives over the status quo, then it makes sense to let go. That has nothing to do with faults.

Nothing wrong with fueling an anger if it's righteous and hasn't been resolved.

If that anger leads to a reduction in the quality of life or decision making, then it is a mistake to hang onto it.

 

[abaddon]

Hatred comes from being hurt. To keep hating and wishing hurt on another is, unavoidably, to keep on hurting.

So a person should deny or pretend they weren't hurt?

Didn't say that. I'm trying for description not "shoulds". I think what you said a few posts up about how hating won't hurt if you don't let it implies a control that doesn't exist and contradicts how human psychology is.

That does in fact necessitate forgiveness, understood as synonymous with “letting go”, if a person wants to stop hurting.

Not really sure how a victim or their family should 'let something go' as if it's their fault if they can’t.

I don’t know anything about “fault”. The word “necessitate” in what I said doesn’t mean “should”. I meant if a person wants to stop hurting from their anger then letting go of it is needed for that to happen.

Hate and anger are painful experiences though there can be satisfaction in expressing them, and that may be a good and needed part of “letting go”, though there's a danger of fueling it.

Nothing wrong with fueling an anger if it's righteous and hasn't been resolved.

Like I said in what you’ve quoted, expressing unresolved feelings can help. “Fueling” meant wallowing in the anger/hate/hurt to where it only perpetuates the hurt, maybe makes it worse.

 

[fast]

I'm an 'eye for an eye' man myself, and make no apology for it.

That's a bit too soft. What about all the trouble you have with the new enemy: the state trying to thwart your attempts in exacting your own flavor of vengeance? We'd be required by necessity to enter the domain of cowardice (not my words) in order to retain our livelihood. We could sit at the side of the killer and play our role in helping them be free--for how else can we 'forgive' them--southern style ... if they aren't walking the streets among us.

People cry out for justice. Who the fuck wants that bullshit? If someone kills a liberal family member, then with their superior sense of morals, they are appreciative of the officials that seek to bring the killer to justice, and the conservative, even with their eye for an eye mentality, are willing to accept justice, but who's kidding who? Why in the hell would we allow right and wrong stand in the way? People!, you civilized fuckers.

But then, the fleeting moments of insane thought subsides. Anger continues. Hurt takes root. Law keeps us at bay. We think. We cry. We rationalize. Right and wrong matters once again. The turmoil still festers and it takes its toll. Then, some of us forgive. What else can we do.

Well, I for one, can take the pains of hurting a bit longer than others. I might, in exhaustion, eventually find some semblance of peace with justice, but it's certainly not a first choice, and forgiveness most certainly isn't going to coincide within days of the date of my family members grave.

Maybe I just have a propensity for anger.

 

[credoconsolans]

So a person should deny or pretend they weren't hurt?

Didn't say that. I'm trying for description not "shoulds". I think what you said a few posts up about how hating won't hurt if you don't let it implies a control that doesn't exist and contradicts how human psychology is.

So completely wrong. People do this all the time. No matter how badly their parents or their ex fucked them over, quite a few people make a new start and do well with their lives and yes, are still angry with the other person, but they don't let the anger control their lives or their future.

 

[DBT]

At some point you either learn to let go of the anger and hurt, or the anger and hurt poisons your own life and you become another victim of the event.

 

[One]

From what I understand, a lot of victims (meaning, in this case, the friends and family) can forgive only when the perp has been declared guilty. The reassurance that the perp was really wrong in society's eye and that the victim was really the victim seems important to be able to let go and advance on the grieving.

I agree with this and will add that the opportunity to forgive is more likely if the perp has actually been caught. For years, I watched things like Forensic Files and Cold Case Files. Families with unsolved murders have the hardest time recovering from the incident. Their emotions have no real direction to diffuse them. It's worse for missing persons cases because they simply have no resolution whatsoever. The person is just gone.

To my mind, forgiveness is more about closing a chapter. If the murderer is behind bars and won't be roaming about free, then it is easier to let go. We can call this letting go "forgiveness," but I think that's way too simple. I seems more about reconciling the incident within oneself with acceptance.

But if this person is only serving 15 months for the incident, rage and hatred are certainly not going to dissipate. Having the murderer "get away with it" is a huge obstacle to forgiveness. Especially if the family feels the Justice system has either screwed them over or been woefully inadequate.

For myself, I do not consider myself an "eye for an eye" person. Yet I have a hard time picturing myself forgiving something so heinous, trying to spin that religious-wise and not trying to exact punishment on a perpetrator that has evaded justice. I acknowledge that we live on this earth in the Garden of Bliss & Fear, where horror and happiness reside next to one another. All I can say is that I sincerely hope I am not in a situation that I have to explore these types of feelings.

 

[NobleSavage]

This is Michael Moore so take it with a grain of salt, but it's a good watch -- it's about the prisons in Norway:

 

[Cerberus]

This is Michael Moore so take it with a grain of salt, but it's a good watch -- it's about the prisons in Norway:

Who's Michael Moore when he's at home? Is he an expert on something, or a tv presenter?

 

[skepticalbip]

This is Michael Moore so take it with a grain of salt, but it's a good watch -- it's about the prisons in Norway:

Yeah, Moore is a trip. He shows an idealized world as he would like it to be in his movies rather than reality. His film Sicko showed how wonderful and superior he saw the Cuban medical system to be but Castro wouldn't allow it to to be shown in Cuba. Castro's reason was that if the Cuban people saw it then they would expect that kind of medical treatment.

 

[jab]

It just seems to me that a response of non-forgiveness and wanting punishment to the full extent of the law would be better than coming out publicly about forgiving the killers--and most certainly better than whatever might be going through my mind at the time

But those are two different things. What the authorities do to him for criminal behavior is not connected to whether or not you hate him or forgive him.

To me, I always kinda hear the 'we forgive his killer' statements as 'I'm letting go of the hurt you've done me, asshole, because you're not worth me carrying you around for the rest of my life.' They still grieve the lost family member, but that would be part of it whether he died from murder or accident.

The forgiveness would be for their benefit, releasing their burden. It's not the same as asking that the killer be pardoned for his crime. The punishment is a separate issue. I think you can forgive the pain but still want to let the system do as it must for the crime the killer committed.

I always hear this "I forgive" trope with the subtext or openly stated rationale of "It's the Christian thing to do."
I don't share that theological imperative, But I can't judge the reactions of victims of horrible crimes. Whatever way works for an individual is my attitude, with the caveats that allowing strong negative emotions to consume you openly and longterm is detrimental to yourself and repressing and denying negative emotions to try to meet an external standard of forgiveness, or for whatever reason, is also dangerous to yourself. It's a tough tough situation to be put in.

 

[jab]

If you don't let go of the hate, anger and bitterness then the killer has murdered a part of you. I have no idea how a person could do it but forgiveness is the only positive control you could take over the situation.

One could equally say that if a beloved person is horrifically killed and you do "let go of the hate, anger and bitterness then the killer has murdered a part of you."
The pain and fear of someone I love must affect me negatively and strongly or my "heart" has been killed.
It's a catch-22 situation.