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Fracking, again.

The problem is they tend to be reckless with the waste they produce.
Well, it's not just that. For me it's also about the geological damage.

Putting fractures in the rocks surrounding deposits of oil allows the oil to become more mobile in the ground. Yes, this allows more ready extraction, but it also allows the chemicals to invade other strata, and has the potential to expose aquifers to oil and gas intrusions.

This is borne out by the fact that in some communities near fracking sites, the pipes will occasionally spit methane or have clear hydrocarbon contamination. To me this represents environmental irresponsibility on an epic scale.
Locals claim this--but we never have a before and after comparison.

I think that rather than pulling up hydrocarbons, we should be working on ways to put hydrocarbons in the ground. I'm talking stuff like straight up farming industrial quantities of hemp for the purposes of sterilizing it, and burying impregnated with glass-beaded radioactive waste material to eventually become oil again, without any industrial benefit other than decarbonizing the atmosphere.
Why?! Simply chop it up and drop it down the hole. Nothing more needs to be done. (But note that you're not going to accomplish a lot, there's no big volume down there to put it in. The oil is in cracks, not pools.) And radioactive waste is a political issue, not a scientific one. I'm opposed to all forms of deep burial because eventually we will come to our senses and want the unused fuel.
 
 Electrolysis of water
2H2O + ⚡️ -> 2H2 + O2

 Fischer–Tropsch process
(y/2+2x-z)(H2) + x(CO2) + 🔥 -> CxHyOz + (2x-z)(H2O)

making hydrocarbons and oxyhydrocarbons -- one can make gasoline and kerosene and methanol:

3H2 + CO2 + 🔥 -> (CH2) + 2H2O
where long-chain hydrocarbons are roughly (CH2)x - hydrocarbons of gasoline and kerosene (diesel fuel, jet fuel).

4H2 + CO2 + 🔥 -> CH3OH + 2H2O
methanol

One can make not only vehicle fuels, but also plastic feedstocks, with the Fischer-Tropsch reaction.

 Haber process
N2 + 3H2 + 🔥 -> 2NH3
Already used for making nitrogen fertilizer, but one replaces steam reforming with electrolysis as the source of hydrogen.

Steam reforming:
CH4 + H2O + 🔥 -> CO2 + 4H2

Uses natural gas and releases CO2.
According to your formula above you are still using hydrocarbons that come from an oil well.

Yes, but how much energy does it take to do this? What is the mass balance?

What is the source material for the plastics? Can this process be upgraded for mass production?

Natural gas is still a fossil fuel, that you need oil rigs to drill for.
The only equation on his list that uses a fossil fuel as an input is CH4 + H2O and note that that is not a required input to anything else on the list--that is a listing what happens now, not what has to happen.

The first 5 reactions use nothing but air (although water would make it easier) + power. And the real energy-eater is the first equation, but the reality is this can be done by overprovisioning and driving it with solar and waste power. Everything else can be driven by nuclear power. (And a properly-designed electrical grid will have the concept of waste power being available at much lower rates. You pay a lot less but the power company decides when and how much power you can have. Used when solar + wind + nuclear exceeds the current load. The marginal cost of nuclear power is trivial (and I suspect if everything is considered it's negative), if you have a reactor you might as well run it at 100% if there's something you can do with the power.)
 
Solar panels are made by using hydrocarbons. The computer and your keyboard you are typing on are made from hydrocarbons.

They are not going away any time soon.
 
The problem is they tend to be reckless with the waste they produce.
Well, it's not just that. For me it's also about the geological damage.

Putting fractures in the rocks surrounding deposits of oil allows the oil to become more mobile in the ground. Yes, this allows more ready extraction, but it also allows the chemicals to invade other strata, and has the potential to expose aquifers to oil and gas intrusions.

This is borne out by the fact that in some communities near fracking sites, the pipes will occasionally spit methane or have clear hydrocarbon contamination. To me this represents environmental irresponsibility on an epic scale.
Locals claim this--but we never have a before and after comparison.

I think that rather than pulling up hydrocarbons, we should be working on ways to put hydrocarbons in the ground. I'm talking stuff like straight up farming industrial quantities of hemp for the purposes of sterilizing it, and burying impregnated with glass-beaded radioactive waste material to eventually become oil again, without any industrial benefit other than decarbonizing the atmosphere.
Why?! Simply chop it up and drop it down the hole. Nothing more needs to be done. (But note that you're not going to accomplish a lot, there's no big volume down there to put it in. The oil is in cracks, not pools.) And radioactive waste is a political issue, not a scientific one. I'm opposed to all forms of deep burial because eventually we will come to our senses and want the unused fuel.
The radioactive waste serves a few purposes.

First, it prevents bacteria from acting on it in a way that prevents it from becoming oil.

Second, it acts as a primary deterrent to bringing it back up.

Third, as a chemical ionizing agent, it promotes continued chemical change so that long chain hydrocarbons for.
 
Is there some upper limit on how many wind turbines and solar panels that one can build?
Well, obviously there is; These things use raw materials that are not in infinite supply.

But there is a (probably much lower) limit to the number of these we can practically build and use - The avalability of suitable sites is also not infinite.

And there's a much lower still limit to the number we can economically build, though that's a moving target, and depends on a large number of factors, only some of which we can control and/or predict.

With any electricity generation technology, the economic questions are:

1) Is the electricity it produces sufficiently valuable to more than pay for the cost of building, running*, and finally decommisioning the facility? and;

2) Is there another way to generate the same value of electricity that is cheaper, after including all costs**?

It is far from obvious that all new wind turbines and solar panels will (at least in the immediate term) meet the hurdle of condition 1; And the more of these intermittent generators you build, the less easy it is for them to meet the hurdle of condition 2.

Electricity cannot be cheaply stockpiled, and this is reflected in the wholesale prices paid for it by energy grids. It is very common for wind and solar energy (and less common, but not particularly unusual, for other energy projects) to be subject to sale price guarantees, so that the grids they feed must buy their electricity at a pre-agreed price, even if the prevailing wholesale price is far lower.

This (along with inertia from less dispatchable sources) can lead to negative wholesale prices. In a very real sense, adding more generation to a grid with negative wholesale prices, is worse than useless. The average value of electricity from a generator must be greater than the amortised average costs of that generator, or it is economically unviable, and building it was a literal waste of money.

A grid with large amounts of solar power can easily reach this economic saturation point - where each new solar panel added is of negative worth, as the average value of its electricity is less than the cost of making and installing the panel.

Lots of obfuscation and accounting trickery is used to avoid this from being easy to detect; But it is almost certainly already the case for many regions, such as California and South Australia. In both of those states, they have neighbours with lower proportions of solar power, who can help to conceal the local saturation by trading low value solar electricity for high value fossil fuel generation; And they also trade off in this way internally, using their own gas fired generation - though that internal trade off has an undesirable impact on their claimed carbon emissions.

Californian politicians get great support from citizens when they reduce their state's carbon emmissions; But nobody wants to talk about how much Californian consumers are pushing up the carbon emmissions of Arizona or Nevada. The same is true for South Australia, whose "green" status is, to a great extent, dependent on making Victoria's status more "black".

There's a very real economic limit to the number of wind and solar generators we can build. It's hard to pin down, and varies depending on the costs of storage, and on the net cost of selling low value electricity to neighbours, and buying back high value electricity from those neighbours (buying expensive and selling cheap isn't a great business model for any product or service). Both of these costs themselves depend on the pattern of consumption, which can be varied either by encouraging industry to follow the supply curve, or by load shedding; Those techniques have political and economic costs of their own, so determining where the line, whether it has been crossed, and whether it can be profitably and practically moved, is is very difficult indeed.

The wholesale electricity generation and marketing picture was a horrible mess before large scale intermittent generation was a thing; It's even messier now, and there are few simple solutions, and even fewer politically palatable ones.









* Including the cost of fuel, and the cost of disposing of any waste products.

**Ideally, without externalising any of these costs; Although in our real world, many costs are externalised - the most glaring example being the cost of climate change caused by burning fossil fuels.
 
(referring to my efforts to explain production of hydrogen, hydrocarbons, and ammonia without fossil fuels)
According to your formula above you are still using hydrocarbons that come from an oil well.

Yes, but how much energy does it take to do this? What is the mass balance?

What is the source material for the plastics? Can this process be upgraded for mass production?

Natural gas is still a fossil fuel, that you need oil rigs to drill for.
The only equation on his list that uses a fossil fuel as an input is CH4 + H2O and note that that is not a required input to anything else on the list--that is a listing what happens now, not what has to happen.

The first 5 reactions use nothing but air (although water would make it easier) + power. And the real energy-eater is the first equation, but the reality is this can be done by overprovisioning and driving it with solar and waste power. Everything else can be driven by nuclear power. ...
Good to see some reading comprehension.
 
Sources of hydrogen:
  • Steam reforming of coal: C + 2H2O + 🔥 -> CO2 + 2H2
  • Steam reforming of natgas: CH4 + 2H2O + 🔥 -> CO2 + 4H2
  • Pyrolysis: CH4 + 🔥 -> C + 2H2
  • Electrolysis: 2H2O + ⚡️ -> O2 + 2H2

Though hydrogen is colorless, sources are often given various colors:

What the colors mean:
  • Black - produced by steam reforming from bituminous (black) coal: C
  • Brown - produced by steam reforming from lignite (brown coal): C
  • Gray - produced by steam reforming from natural gas (methane): CH4
  • Blue - like the previous three, but with capture of resulting CO2
  • Turquoise - pyrolysis of CH4: heating it until it disintegrates
  • Green - production by electrolysis from renewable-energy electricity and H2O
  • Pink - like green, but using nuclear-energy electricity
  • Purple - like pink, but with assistance from nuclear-reactor heat
  • Red - from cracking of H2O using nuclear-reactor heat
  • Yellow - various sources (solar, nuclear, mixed)
  • White - naturally-occurring hydrogen in the Earth's interior (rare)
 
For renewable energy, one wants electrolysis, of course. Once one has hydrogen, one can make nitrogen fertilizer:

 Haber process - makes ammonia
2N2 + 3H2 -> 2NH3

 Ostwald process - makes nitric acid
NH3 + 2O2 -> H2O + HNO3

 Ammonium nitrate - a common nitrogen fertilizer
NH3 + HNO3 -> NH4-NO3

These reactions are currently done industrially with gray hydrogen. But if electrolysis can compete well enough, that will make green hydrogen a good alternative.
 
 Fischer–Tropsch process
With hydrogen and a carbon source one can make hydrocarbons:
CO2 + 3H2 -> (CH2) + 2H2O
for (CH2)x hydrocarbons

One can also make methanol:
CO2 + 3H2 -> CH3OH + H2O

 Synthetic fuel
The first one was likely  Charcoal made by baking wood in an environment with poor aeration so it will not burn completely. That drives off the water in its chemical structure; cellulose is roughly (CH2O)x, and lignin roughly (C3H3O)x.

A common industrial synthetic-fuel technology is  Cracking (chemistry) even if it is not usually called one. It is for making short-chain hydrocarbons by splitting long-chain ones.

Synfuels proper are made with processes like the Fischer-Tropsch process, usually starting with coal. Nazi Germany and apartheid-era South Africa made a lot of fuel in that way.
 
Fracking water is injected into wells that are deep, thousands of feet. Aquifers we get water from are not remotely that deep, about one-tenth as deep. Cross contamination between the formations isn't generally possible. The gap is too large.
You will need to explain all of the contaminated wells in Dimock, PA, among other places in the Marcellus Shale region.
From the documents I can get on Dimrock (I did it on my phone, so no links, sorry), the failure there was the well construction, not fracking. If you look up enough of my posts historically on the subject, my position has been to require baselining sites prior to any drilling and indicated the issues were primarily well sealing and surface spills, not the fracking itself.

Baselines are crucial and as the EPA report indicated, one issue with the Dimrock case was the presence of chemicals that there was no evidence it wasn't there previously. Having baselines are critical for legal purposes, which is why people like Loren are against them... well that and they cost money and take time. This also helps with local site issues as far as spills at the well(s). That said, there seemed to be little in the way of doubt that the well installer was responsible for quite a bit of contamination.

It is abhorrent that it took a decade for any level of justice to be dealt out in Dimrock. They are lucky the contractors still exist in some form at all!
How do you think this water got contaminated?
As noted, the wells were poorly sealed. The contractor did a crap job and it resulted in contamination of the aquifer. However, lots of fracking has occurred and this level of contamination has not been observed across PA, OH, NY, IN, etc... This is being observed in localized areas where contractors didn't make quality a priority.
 
Not just fuels:  Synthetic oil - made using various proprietary processes.

I'll now consider plastic feedstocks. I must first find out what are the most common kinds of plastic, since there are numerous kinds and variations of them. My sources:
I tried to avoid advocacy sites, either pro-plastic or anti-plastic.
 
Polyethylene - the most common kind, with high-density and low-density grades common.

Made from ethylene (ethene): CH2=CH2 -- can make by Fischer-Tropsch, making methanol then doing methanol-to-olefins

Polypropylene - second most common (?)

Made from propylene (propene): CH2=CH-CH3 -- made much like ethylene

Polyvinyl chloride - third most common (?)

Made from vinyl chloride: CH2==CHCl (ethylene with a chlorine atom instead of one of the hydrogen atoms) - chlorination of ethylene, with the chlorine coming from electrolysis of ordinary salt (NaCl).

Polyethylene terephthalate - very common kind of polyester.

Made from ethylene glycol: CHOH-CHOH and terephthalic acid: COOH-C6H4-COOH where the C6H4 is a benzene ring.

Ethylene glycol: oxidation of ethylene, adding water. Terephthalic acid: oxidation of p-xylene: CH3-C6H4-CH3 which may be produced by the Fischer-Tropsch process.

Polylactic acid - another kind of polyester.

Made from lactic acid: CH3-CHOH-COOH -- fermentation

Polystyrene - very common

Made from styrene: CH2=CH-C6H5 where the C6H5 is a benzene ring.

Styrene is made from ethylbenzene, CH3-CH2-C6H5 by removing some of its hydrogen. Ethylbenzene, in turn, is produced by combining ethylene and benzene: C6H6. That, in turn, can be made by the Fischer-Tropsch process, either directly or indirectly by doing  Catalytic reforming - rearranging existing hydrocarbons. So if one has a lot of unsuitable HC's from FT, one can rearrange them and extract more suitable ones.

So far, nearly all the raw materials for these plastics can be made with the Fischer-Tropsch process and similar processes. Some of them require extraction of the desired materials and reforming the rest, but that's what's already done. So if one has a lot of other hydrocarbons besides ethylene or benzene, one reforms them and extracts the ethylene or benzene again.
 
Poly(methyl methacrylate) - acrylic, Plexiglas, Lucite, made from methyl methacrylate: (CH3)(CH2)C-COO-CH3

There are several ways to make MMA, all starting with small hydrocarbons or oxyhydrocarbons like acetone, ethylene, carbon monoxide, methanol, and formaldehyde.

Polyisoprene - natural rubber and a kind of synthetic rubber, made from isoprene: CH2=C(CH3)-CH=CH2

That can be produced as a byproduct of making ethylene.

Neoprene - synthetic rubber made with chloroprene: CH2=CCl-CH=CH2

Produced by chlorinating butadiene: CH2=CH-CH=CH2 - another byproduct of making ethylene.

Nitrile rubber - made with butadiene and acrylonitrile: CH2=CH-C#N (# is triple bond)

Acrylonitrile is produced by the  Ammoxidation of propylene, adding NH3 and O2.

Phenol formaldehyde resin - phenolic plastic, made from formaldehyde: CH2O and phenol: C6H5-OH

Formaldehyde can be made the way one makes methanol, with less hydrogenation, and phenol can be made by oxidizing benzene.

Nylon - several kinds, with one kind, Nylon 66, being made from adipic acid: HOOC-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-COOH and hexamethylenediamine: H2N-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-NH2. These are joined together at their ends with -COOH + H2N- becoming -COO-HN- and H2O, the same reaction for assembling proteins. The 66 in the name is from both raw materials having 6 carbons in them.

Adipic acid can be made by oxidizing cyclohexanol: loop of 5 (CH2) and 1 (CHOH) and/or cyclohexanone: loop of 5 (CH2) and 1 (CO), in turn produced by oxidizing cyclohexane: loop of 6 (CH2), in turn produced by hydrogenating benzene: loop of 6 (CH).

Hexamethylenediamine is usually made by hydrogenating adiponitrile: NC-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CN in turn made by adding hydrogen cyanide: HCN to butadiene.

Hydrogen cyanide can be made with 2CH4 + 2NH3 + 3O2 -> 2HCN + 6H2O
 
Aramid - what Kevlar and Nomex are. Their monomers (building blocks):
  • Kevlar: made from para-phenylenediamine and terephthalic acid
  • Nomex: made from meta-phenylenediamine and isophthalic acid
These are combined together in protein and nylon fashion:
-NH2 + HOOC- -> -NH-OC- + H2O
though the acid parts are made acyl chlorides first: -COOH + HCl -> COCl + H2O
then
-NH2 + ClOC -> -NH-OC- + HCl
  • Phenylenediamine: H2N-C6H4-NH2 (next to each other: ortho, halfway apart: meta, all the way apart: para)
  • Phthalic acid: HOOC-C6H4-COOH (next to each other: (), halfway apart: iso, all the way apart: tere)
The C6H4 is a benzene ring, and these building blocks are made from benzene.


Direct production of aromatics from syngas over a hybrid FeMn Fischer–Tropsch catalyst and HZSM-5 zeolite: local environment effect and mechanism-directed tuning of the aromatic selectivity - Catalysis Science & Technology (RSC Publishing) - with suitable catalysts, one can make benzene rings directly.

So in summary, one does not need crude oil as an ultimate source. One can do Fischer-Tropsch on atmospheric CO2 and electrolysis-released H2. But making it economically competitive is another story. The recent interest in hydrogen production will help by making electrolysis cheaper, and the same may eventually happen to Fischer-Tropsch.
 
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