Free Will And Free Choice

[untermensche]

Nope.

That's all it takes for a mind to do something.

You simply will your arm to move and it moves. You don't will it to move and it doesn't

You are still making unfounded claims that ignore the mechanisms of thought, decision making and movement.

Meanwhile:


A parietal-premotor network for movement intention and motor awareness
''It is commonly assumed that we are conscious of our movements mainly because we can sense ourselves moving as ongoing peripheral information coming from our muscles and retina reaches the brain.

Recent evidence, however, suggests that, contrary to common beliefs, conscious intention to move is independent of movement execution per se. We propose that during movement execution it is our initial intentions that we are mainly aware of.

Furthermore, the experience of moving as a conscious act is associated with increased activity in a specific brain region: the posterior parietal cortex. We speculate that movement intention and awareness are generated and monitored in this region. We put forward a general framework of the cognitive and neural processes involved in movement intention and motor awareness.''

I have no access to that speculation and pretending to understand what brain activity is specifically doing.

 

[untermensche]

I'm back.

That's all it takes for a mind to do something.

You simply will your arm to move and it moves. You don't will it to move and it doesn't

Experience is evidence to the individual mind and therefore you are the one ignoring the evidence.

There is no scientific understanding of the mind. We just know, since we are a mind, it exists.

Brains create minds.

Minds grow and learn and "know" and believe and are mistaken and are corrupted and are clouded by emotions.

Minds are living things.

Not ghosts.

Nine lines of vaporware. Mary a hint of evidence of regarding any of those statements.

It is only vapor to dishonest clowns with ulterior motives.

I can command my arm to move at any time I desire and in any way I desire. And it obeys like a faithful slave.

We could wager if you claim differently.

A simple experiment.

I will raise my arm over my head in three seconds.

Did it.

 

[untermensche]

Nobody has the slightest clue what brain activity is actually doing or what specific activity is producing consciousness.

All humans can do is look at relative brain activity, the whole brain is active at all times, and correlate changes in activity to observed behavior and subjective reports.

From this we get all kinds of fiction about what brain activity is doing.

It is all nonsense.

No human has the slightest clue what any brain activity (the activity of cells) is specifically doing in terms of consciousness or what causes brain activity to move around (external stimulation, evolved processes, and the mind).

Physiological knowledge of the mind is missing in every experiment.

They resort to subjective reports because they want to make claims and pretend to know something.

They freely choose their methods and hypotheses and conclusions and then claim to not have freedom.

Emperor's new clothes.

That is modern brain science.

 

[fromderinside]

Nobody has the slightest clue what brain activity is actually doing or what specific activity is producing consciousness.

To the powers that be on this forum: Below is presented what I consider necessary material to dispose of Untermensche spam.

Dumping "Nobody" and "They" hypotheses into the trash bin.

Neural Basis of Consciousness

Koch, Christof and Crick, Francis (2001) Neural Basis of Consciousness. In: International Encyclopedia of the Social & Behavioral Sciences. Elsevier , New York, pp. 2600-2604. ISBN 9780080430768. https://resolver.caltech.edu/CaltechAUTHORS:20130816-103309155
Full text is not posted in this repository.
Abstract

Consciousness appears to be the most singular challenge to the scientific, reductionist worldview. In the closing years of the second millennium, advances in the ability to record the activity of individual neurons in the brains of monkeys or other animals while they carry out particular tasks, combined with the explosive development of functional brain imaging in normal humans, led to a renewed empirical program to discover the scientific explanation of consciousness. This entry reviews some of the relevant experimental work and argues that the most advantageous strategy for now is to focus on discovering the neuronal correlates of consciousness.

​

The neural basis of consciousness

CD Frith - Psychological medicine, 2021 - cambridge.org
Consciousness has evolved and is a feature of all animals with sufficiently complex nervous
systems. It is, therefore, primarily a problem for biology, rather than physics. In this review, I
will consider three aspects of consciousness: level of consciousness, whether we are awake …


Cited by 11 Related articles All 7 versions


[PDF] psu.edu


The neural correlates of conscious experience: An experimental framework

C Frith, R Perry, E Lumer - Trends in cognitive sciences, 1999 - Elsevier
Demonstrating that neural activity 'represents' physical properties of the world such as the
orientation of a line in the receptive field of a nerve cell is a standard procedure in
neuroscience. However, not all such neural activity will be associated with the mental …


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From just one or two authors over past 25 years. Tip of the iceberg of consciousness knowledge

"Nobody knows the consciousness I've seen. Nobody knows my my understanding"  

Dead and buried!

 

[untermensche]

I will consider three aspects of consciousness: level of consciousness, whether we are awake or in a coma; the contents of consciousness, what determines how a small amount of sensory information is associated with subjective experience, while the rest is not; and meta-consciousness, the ability to reflect upon our subjective experiences and, importantly, to share them with others.

From your first alleged scientific understanding of consciousness.

Wakefulness is not consciousness nor an aspect of consciousness. It is a necessary condition for there to be consciousness. I must be awake to be conscious of anything. And my level of alertness will effect how efficiently I can use my conscious mind.

The contents of consciousness are not consciousness. Consciousness is that which is aware and knows about the contents of consciousness.

At least this author understands that what a consciousness has is "subjective experience"

It's behind a paywall so you waste my time with it.

How do you think you have truth, and you clearly do think it, without the freedom to make judgements about the truth or falsity of an idea?

 

[fromderinside]

Poor baby. It's behind a paywall as are most scientific journal articles of merit.

Amazing you selected just one article. Fortunately I can go behind that paywall since I'm a past postdoctoral scientist at CalTech. If you were serious you'd put out the bucks to subscribe to some of these journals. Rest assured I've read that article. I've also read most of the others listed in my post by these authors since consciousness is a retirement hobby of mine.

As for your comment about wakefulness you need to go way back to Moruzzi and Magoun (1949) Brain stem reticular formation and activation of the EEG https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0013469449902199

To see why you are incorrect I suggest you look into  Reticular activating system research.

Feel free to quibble. However we know a lot more than nothing which you admit in your post. So even though you want to quibble about their definitions you don't appear to have the knowledge to match up with your instincts.

It would be very nice if you quit your hyperbole. Stick what is actually known to which you can provide reference. I'm here for your assistance if you have questions.

 

[untermensche]

I only care about what knowledge you may have.

As far as as I can see you have none.

You worked on perception and think energy has information about color.

You say experience doesn't exist and post a reference discussing subjective experience.

You cannot impress me when you are so absolutely wrong about simple things like that.

 

[fromderinside]

There is a saying: God bless the intentionally uninformed for they are destined for a life of ignorant certainty.

So God Bless.

Now go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_aberration

Hint:

If lenses disperse light by frequency there is information in each frequency. So there's likely physical phenomena that treat such physical disparities.

The contents of consciousness are not consciousness. Consciousness is that which is aware and knows about the contents of consciousness.

Ergo the statement on subjective experience. It isn't a thing. It is a bag in which we dump brain process outcomes. Not physical, just a convenience for talking about what the brain is doing without constantly restating synaptic cluster process outcomes. Wallah,color.

We don't see moving objects either. Similar smoothing processer results from that which is actually sensed. Ergo frame rates.

We are so far from quantum activity that we can't even imagine, much less describe, equivalent processes. If we could it would be a perceptual turd pile so big that the Empire State building would be dwarfed.

 

[untermensche]

Human understanding of the stimulus for the visual reflex does not translate into energy having information about color.

It has none.

And a person who says energy has information about color is not fit to talk about vision.

They are clueless.

It isn't a thing. It is a bag in which we dump brain process outcomes.

The outcome is I experience something.

 

[untermensche]

As for your comment about wakefulness you need to go way back to Moruzzi and Magoun (1949)

No I don't.

Wakefulness is not consciousness.

It is prerequisite for there to be consciousness.

If a person is hyper alert because they are taking their SATs and are very motivated to do well that is a mind generated state of alertness.

Evolved brains know nothing about SATs. Only minds know about them.

There would be no way for the brain to create this hyper alert state on it's own without all the pushing from a motivated mind.

 

[fromderinside]

.... and Untermensche the BS artist just keeps spouting declarations as fast as he can make them up.

Thoughts are what the brain produces. It needn't know what is a thought to do so. It just needs to process information received from senses, generate models and put them to words articulating them. No mind, no experience. Just produce thoughts as history of what one does.

For every turd you produce I fire back scientific summaries and articles that are on point.

 Reticular formation

E. N. Sokolov's Neural Model of Stimuli as Neuro-cybernetic Approach to Anticipatory Perception http://www.nadin.ws/ante-study/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Kirvelis-Sokolov-and-Anticipation.pdf

 

[fromderinside]

I'm back.

That's all it takes for a mind to do something.

You simply will your arm to move and it moves. You don't will it to move and it doesn't

Experience is evidence to the individual mind and therefore you are the one ignoring the evidence.

There is no scientific understanding of the mind. We just know, since we are a mind, it exists.

Brains create minds.

Minds grow and learn and "know" and believe and are mistaken and are corrupted and are clouded by emotions.

Minds are living things.

Not ghosts.

Nine lines of vaporware. Mary a hint of evidence of regarding any of those statements.

It is only vapor to dishonest clowns with ulterior motives.

I can command my arm to move at any time I desire and in any way I desire. And it obeys like a faithful slave.

We could wager if you claim differently.

A simple experiment.

I will raise my arm over my head in three seconds.

Did it.

Firing back in kind.

No you didn't.

Not very useful is it.

 

[DBT]

Nope.

That's all it takes for a mind to do something.

You simply will your arm to move and it moves. You don't will it to move and it doesn't

You are still making unfounded claims that ignore the mechanisms of thought, decision making and movement.

Meanwhile:


A parietal-premotor network for movement intention and motor awareness
''It is commonly assumed that we are conscious of our movements mainly because we can sense ourselves moving as ongoing peripheral information coming from our muscles and retina reaches the brain.

Recent evidence, however, suggests that, contrary to common beliefs, conscious intention to move is independent of movement execution per se. We propose that during movement execution it is our initial intentions that we are mainly aware of.

Furthermore, the experience of moving as a conscious act is associated with increased activity in a specific brain region: the posterior parietal cortex. We speculate that movement intention and awareness are generated and monitored in this region. We put forward a general framework of the cognitive and neural processes involved in movement intention and motor awareness.''

I have no access to that speculation and pretending to understand what brain activity is specifically doing.

You are the on speculating. You base your declarations of Untertruth^tm on speculation. In order to do that you dismiss scientific research and analysis.

 

[untermensche]

Thoughts are what the brain produces.

A thought is an experience. It is something a 'subject' experiences. A 'subject' is not the brain. The brain is an object.

If you didn't experience a thought you wouldn't know anything about it.

But the brain does not think.

The mind thinks.

The brain uses chemicals and cells.

The mind uses ideas and moves ideas around at will.

That's how ideas advance and grow.

Through the use of the mind.

Try it.

 

[untermensche]

Firing back in kind.

No you didn't.

Not very useful is it.

You're wrong.

The command from the mind was given and the arm moved exactly as the mind desired.

You lie if you say differently.

The brain knows nothing about any of it.

The brain is a slave that only follows it's evolved "programming" or the commands of the mind.

 

[untermensche]

You are the on speculating. You base your declarations of Untertruth^tm on speculation. In order to do that you dismiss scientific research and analysis.

It s a lie to say any rational research has been dismissed.

There is no research that understands what the mind is doing.

They have to ask the subjects what is happening in the mind to understand that.

Asking subjects about subjective experiences is a focus group. Not scientific research.

 

[untermensche]

For every turd you produce I fire back scientific summaries and articles that are on point.

I ask turds like: What is the physiological basis of a thought?

And you fire back: "We'll get back to you on that but we do see pretty colors when our scans show activity we don't understand."

What specifically causes some area of the brain to become more active when we observe a rise in activity?

What specifically motivates activity to suddenly arise in some part of the brain?

The specificity of your answer will show the specificity of your understanding of brain activity.

 

[fromderinside]

For every turd you produce I fire back scientific summaries and articles that are on point.

I ask turds like: What is the physiological basis of a thought?

And you fire back: "We'll get back to you on that but we do see pretty colors when our scans show activity we don't understand."

What specifically causes some area of the brain to become more active when we observe a rise in activity?

What specifically motivates activity to suddenly arise in some part of the brain?

The specificity of your answer will show the specificity of your understanding of brain activity.

Depending on your level of understanding the physiological basis of thought I might respond with descriptions of pathways in brain systems, circuits linked to such as arousal, sense information, neurochemical transactions in cell processes such as synapse at dendrite locations, neural fibers, cell walls, etc.

However since you specifically wrote physiological basis of thought I'd probably concentrate of medial-lateral frontal lobe processes, pathways and processing from sense and memory systems, and experiments demonstrating metabolic activity therein. I'd probably enquire about your understanding of thought which is not actually something for which there is a brain center, rather it's part of what what we build up in speech processing as sub-vocalizations which we hear I'd also bring up signal andinhibition mechanisms in ascending and descending sensory and effector pathways and the like.

I mean we'd really get down into the weeds. You know, the place where you claim we know nothing about.

 

[untermensche]

medial-lateral frontal lobe processes

Yes.

What an amazing understanding.

Some kind of processes happening at a location.

I rest my case.

 

[fromderinside]

You should. But you can't. You have no case.