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Free Will And Free Choice

You believe, have faith, that merely knowing the location where some activity takes place but not knowing anything about the activity or how it got there is an understanding of how a thought is created.

It is like claiming to know all about bowling by standing outside and watching the lights in the bowling alley go on every night.

You are fooling yourself, not me.

You are using your will to fool yourself. The thing about the will is you are free to do that.

I use mine differently.
 
You misstate what I know. I now where the activity is converted to neural signals, how and where they are sorted by envelope and spectrum in the ascending auditory system. I generally know how acoustic signals are created by activity in the cerebellum directing activity of tongue muscles, larynx, and diaphragm to produce human created sounds. That's a damn sight more than nothing.

And I do know that humans use subvocal utterings to produce acoustic experience of thought.

The one fooling oneself is thou. One need not invent mind, self, experience when those qualitative things can be explained showing the brain produces them through overt behavior.

You do the same. Try to think when you purposely stop any possibility of utterance through acoustic vocal suppression.
 
You believe, have faith, that merely knowing the location where some activity takes place but not knowing anything about the activity or how it got there is an understanding of how a thought is created.

It is like claiming to know all about bowling by standing outside and watching the lights in the bowling alley go on every night.

You are fooling yourself, not me.

You are using your will to fool yourself. The thing about the will is you are free to do that.

I use mine differently.

The faith is yours. You reject research, you reject its results, you reject evidence and qualified analysis, just to proclaim your own beliefs. That is the power of faith.

"Faith is like a piece of blank paper whereon you may write as well one miracle as another." ~ Charles Blount (1654-1693)

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. - Hebrews 11:1
 
You are the on speculating. You base your declarations of Untertruthtm on speculation. In order to do that you dismiss scientific research and analysis.

It s a lie to say any rational research has been dismissed.

There is no research that understands what the mind is doing.

They have to ask the subjects what is happening in the mind to understand that.

Asking subjects about subjective experiences is a focus group. Not scientific research.

The effect that brain condition has on the mind is the point. In short, brain state equals state of the mind/consciousness. Alter chemical balance, apply current here, effect connectivity there, and you get results in terms of cognition and conscious experience.
 
You misstate what I know. I now where the activity is converted to neural signals, how and where they are sorted by envelope and spectrum in the ascending auditory system. I generally know how acoustic signals are created by activity in the cerebellum directing activity of tongue muscles, larynx, and diaphragm to produce human created sounds. That's a damn sight more than nothing.

And I do know that humans use subvocal utterings to produce acoustic experience of thought.

The one fooling oneself is thou. One need not invent mind, self, experience when those qualitative things can be explained showing the brain produces them through overt behavior.

You do the same. Try to think when you purposely stop any possibility of utterance through acoustic vocal suppression.

One suggestion in neuroscience is that one side of ones brain creates emotional responses while the other side of ones brain uses the inner dialogue to rationalize the emotion.

That's an empty unsupported in any way speculation, yes.

No scientist has any clue what produces this inner dialogue or what specifically experiences it.

And of course mental disorders are evidence of a mind.

A mind not functioning properly.
 
You are the on speculating. You base your declarations of Untertruthtm on speculation. In order to do that you dismiss scientific research and analysis.

It s a lie to say any rational research has been dismissed.

There is no research that understands what the mind is doing.

They have to ask the subjects what is happening in the mind to understand that.

Asking subjects about subjective experiences is a focus group. Not scientific research.

The effect that brain condition has on the mind is the point. In short, brain state equals state of the mind/consciousness. Alter chemical balance, apply current here, effect connectivity there, and you get results in terms of cognition and conscious experience.

What about the brain condition effected by the mind?

What about the entire world of biofeedback were the mind is used to produce physiological effects?

Why do you ignore all this science?
 
One suggestion in neuroscience is that one side of ones brain creates emotional responses while the other side of ones brain uses the inner dialogue to rationalize the emotion.

That's an empty unsupported in any way speculation, yes.

No scientist has any clue what produces this inner dialogue or what specifically experiences it.

And of course mental disorders are evidence of a mind.

A mind not functioning properly.

Uh the quote in context is:

Subvocalizing and “Thinking Errors”.

One suggestion in neuroscience is that one side of ones brain creates emotional responses while the other side of ones brain uses the inner dialogue to rationalize the emotion.
Perhaps Affects (mood and emotion) influence on the process of subvocalizing is what produces “cognitive distortions” or “Thinking Errors” aka “Thought Errors“).

These “errors” maybe life- intrusive and/or self defeating, and are particular problem for people with Mental disorders (like me), and require a person to cope, and pay special attention to their inner dialogue. People who suffer from long term Depression , for example will usually “hear” a excessive negative or self defeating subvocal thinking.

It is an informed speculation not an empty speculation. You having presented no counter evidence are not entitled to claim either empty or unsupported speculation. By the way the writer is personally involved being one with a mental disorder.  List of mental disorders
 
The effect that brain condition has on the mind is the point. In short, brain state equals state of the mind/consciousness. Alter chemical balance, apply current here, effect connectivity there, and you get results in terms of cognition and conscious experience.

What about the brain condition effected by the mind?

What about the entire world of biofeedback were the mind is used to produce physiological effects?

Why do you ignore all this science?

There is no mind without a mind generating brain.
There is no mind without brain activity.
You are a dualist.
Your remark implies autonomy of mind.
There is no evidence for autonomy of mind.

The mind is whatever a brain is doing. You mistake feedback or loops from different regions and structures of the brain for autonomy of mind.
 
The effect that brain condition has on the mind is the point. In short, brain state equals state of the mind/consciousness. Alter chemical balance, apply current here, effect connectivity there, and you get results in terms of cognition and conscious experience.

What about the brain condition effected by the mind?

What about the entire world of biofeedback were the mind is used to produce physiological effects?

Why do you ignore all this science?

There is no mind without a mind generating brain.
There is no mind without brain activity.
You are a dualist.
Your remark implies autonomy of mind.
There is no evidence for autonomy of mind.

The mind is whatever a brain is doing. You mistake feedback or loops from different regions and structures of the brain for autonomy of mind.

The brain generates the mind, you got that right, and the mind is a living entity arising from some unknown activity that can influence the brain. At will. It can raise the arm at will. No real science says otherwise.

It is clear.

Look up BIOFEEDBACK.

Why do you deny the science?
 
A mind- body approach to taking control of your physical and emotional health.
Biofeedback is the process of training your body to control its involuntary actions, such as breathing and heart rate. Minor changes to these actions can significantly improve physical and emotional well- being. In Biofeedback and Mindfulness in Everyday Life, Harvard Medical School faculty member Inna Khazan pairs biofeedback techniques with mindfulness practice to address some of life’s most common ailments— from anxiety and fear to stress and insomnia.

biofeed 00.JPG

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Biofeedback_and_Mindfulness_in_Everyday/-IR1DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0

Biofeedback is a process that teaches the mind so that it can learn to control the body.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Biofeedback/sdrlF80DtTEC?hl=en&gbpv=0

I can post dozens of text books on biofeedback.

It is using the mind to make physiological changes.

The mind has to influence the brain to do that.
 
So while you were in diapers I was member of an FSU psychophysics team which developed a relaxation therapy lab. We used a variety of tools including biofeedback for relaxation therapy. We employed alpha wave training, hypnosis, and point of mental locus relaxation techniques all well known and standardized by that time.

The lab was part of a research program aimed at developing evidence for EEG conditioning first pioneered by Donald Lindsey at UCLA BMD Center. If you are interested, I published an article in 1976 in Behavioral Biology on the potential for use of Evoked potential in determining auditory and visual thresholds in babies.

 Peretz Lavie was part of our program at that time, 1972, before he transferred to U Florida to train with Delsie Webb at U Florida. he went onto UC Sand Diego to work as postdoc with Daniel Kripke. There they demonstrated rem patterns persisted during wakefulness.
 
You don't use biofeedback for "relaxation".

You can use it to lower your blood pressure or to reduce muscle tone which may relax you.

But not being able to relax is a problem of the mind.

Biofeedback is the mind controlling the brain which in turn controls the body.

Biofeedback is not the mind controlling an anxious mind.

You had some exposure to it. Great.

It is a standard tool in physical therapy.

Well documented results.

It throws the whole "mind doesn't control anything" BS overboard.

To the intelligent.
 
There is no mind without a mind generating brain.
There is no mind without brain activity.
You are a dualist.
Your remark implies autonomy of mind.
There is no evidence for autonomy of mind.

The mind is whatever a brain is doing. You mistake feedback or loops from different regions and structures of the brain for autonomy of mind.

The brain generates the mind, you got that right, and the mind is a living entity arising from some unknown activity that can influence the brain. At will. It can raise the arm at will. No real science says otherwise.

It is clear.

Look up BIOFEEDBACK.

Why do you deny the science?

You still imply that the mind gains independence from the brain. That the mind is able to act on its own volition separately from the brain, which is the very thing that is generating and forming mind as it is being experienced

The fact that you bring up biofeedback shows how poor your understanding of cognitive process is.

Biofeedback supplies the brain with new information, which is propagated throughout the system, processed and used to alter mind and behaviour. Information input alters the state of the system and the mind.

Information input precedes conscious experience. You should understand this by now.
 
Untermensche from your selective responses it's clear to most you are still in diapers. Try getting around why training to maximize alpha activity is not relaxation training. Its going to be pretty hard to get around why lowering blood pressure and muscle tension, not tone*, as other than relaxing.

* Low muscle tone https://www.rch.org.au/kidsinfo/fact_sheets/Low_muscle_tone/
 
There is no mind without a mind generating brain.
There is no mind without brain activity.
You are a dualist.
Your remark implies autonomy of mind.
There is no evidence for autonomy of mind.

The mind is whatever a brain is doing. You mistake feedback or loops from different regions and structures of the brain for autonomy of mind.

The brain generates the mind, you got that right, and the mind is a living entity arising from some unknown activity that can influence the brain. At will. It can raise the arm at will. No real science says otherwise.

It is clear.

Look up BIOFEEDBACK.

Why do you deny the science?

You still imply that the mind gains independence from the brain. That the mind is able to act on its own volition separately from the brain, which is the very thing that is generating and forming mind as it is being experienced

The fact that you bring up biofeedback shows how poor your understanding of cognitive process is.

Biofeedback supplies the brain with new information, which is propagated throughout the system, processed and used to alter mind and behaviour. Information input alters the state of the system and the mind.

Information input precedes conscious experience. You should understand this by now.

The mind must exist beyond and independent of the brain.

The mind knows what justice is.

The brain knows nothing. The brain creates some thoughts. Randomly. The mind creates ordered rational thoughts. If the person uses their will.

The brain doesn't have thoughts. It creates them. Either randomly like a dream or at the command of a mind. The mind experiences thoughts, not the brain.

The mind thinks, not the brain.

Therefore the mind is more than the brain.

Look at a bodybuilder.

The difference between them and a normal person is the will to work out and eat a restricted diet.

The same is true of a rational thinker. They use their will to accept and reject ideas based on their reasonableness.

Nobody is rational at birth.

If they show any rationality it is their will in action.

We can certainly see a lot of irrational thought too. Like religious thought.

That is when people refuse to apply reason to their thoughts.

Their refusal to be rational (Trump supporters) is THEIR act of will. They call it faith. It is willfully refusing to be rational.

The will is in everything.
 
Untermensche from your selective responses it's clear to most you are still in diapers. Try getting around why training to maximize alpha activity is not relaxation training. Its going to be pretty hard to get around why lowering blood pressure and muscle tension, not tone*, as other than relaxing.

* Low muscle tone https://www.rch.org.au/kidsinfo/fact_sheets/Low_muscle_tone/

Try to understand.

Biofeedback is not teaching people to relax.

That is what bad self-help gurus do.

Biofeedback teaches people to control their physiology with their mind. To do that the mind must exert control over the brain.

Many times controlling the physiology will cause relaxation.

But the person did not try to relax. Biofeedback has nothing to do with relaxation. Relaxation is a purely mental exercise that usually fails.

Biofeedback is using the mind to control physiological processes.

You don't have the slightest idea how working professionals that actually help people view muscle tone.
 
But the mind is derivative of neural processes controlling speech production thereby effecting neural process management. Providing neural input through aural processes interacts with existing neural processes managing speech production leads to changes in management.

Doing so produces changes in that speech to the speech telling one to focus on relaxing. That in turn results in one relaxing neck muscles leading to increased eight to twelve cycle large EEG wave patterns. Those patterns are involved in processes relaxing other subsystems as well.

Relaxation attained.

Your comments and presumptions don't lead anywhere.

Broadly speaking one telling one self leads to scripts telling one to relax which is obeyed by existing processes designed to respond to such inputs by initializing physical changes in tension in the neck which leads to a cascade of follow on processes ultimately producing lessening of activity in the pons and arousal system.

Relaxation.

Yours? Biofeedback teaches one to control their physiology with magic. No hint at connection with processes designed to achieve that magic. NO. Instead just some vague reference to a 'mind'. Input to process to output not established.

Keep waving. Maybe someone will feel the air moving from your pointing this way and that going nowhere.

We already know that auditory, skin and visual central processing can shift from one modality to the other suggesting there is, beyond all being cortical, some functional similarity and connectiveness between them.

Its not a very large leap to suggest that visual sensory consciousnesses, surface sensory, gustatory, olfactory, auditory sensory consciousnesses are all functionally connected.

My illustration of a mechanism underlying auditory sensation consciousness by way of articulation control suggests a means for explaining all consciousness as physiological feedback processes.
 
You still imply that the mind gains independence from the brain. That the mind is able to act on its own volition separately from the brain, which is the very thing that is generating and forming mind as it is being experienced

The fact that you bring up biofeedback shows how poor your understanding of cognitive process is.

Biofeedback supplies the brain with new information, which is propagated throughout the system, processed and used to alter mind and behaviour. Information input alters the state of the system and the mind.

Information input precedes conscious experience. You should understand this by now.

The mind must exist beyond and independent of the brain.

Well, that's where you go astray. Your assumption has no support. Of course, that won't stop you from making the claim and just repeating it like repetition proves something. It doesn't. Your claims are unfounded.

Meanwhile, the actual research;


Neuronal Mechanisms of Conscious Awareness


''This review focuses on conscious awareness: the state in which external and internal stimuli are perceived and can be intentionally acted on. Much investigative effort has been directed at testing theoretical constructs dealing with general as well as specific characteristics of conscious awareness.''

'' We address 3 general questions: Where in the brain does consciousness occur? When does it occur in relation to external and/or internal stimuli? How are the underlying neural mechanisms involved in the emergence of consciousness?

Experimentally obtained answers to these questions, although at times not definitive, narrow the list of possible hypotheses, provide new insights into conscious mechanisms, and guide future research.''

Where
Considering the dispersed nature of various sensory centers in the brain and the resultant complexity of consciousness, it is likely that the interaction between different cerebral areas gives rise to consciousness. In their classic studies, Plum and Posner1 analyzed clinical records of comatose patients across a period of several decades. Coma was found to result from diffuse cerebral dysfunction, extensive damage to both cerebral hemispheres, diffuse demyelination of the hemispheral subcortex, destruction of the thalamus, or lesions of the upper brainstem. Coma may be induced by relatively focal subcortical damage to the diencephalon or midbrain. In contrast, unilateral lesions of the cerebral hemispheres, unless augmented by secondary lesions, are incapable of permanently affecting all consciousness but may cause transient loss of awareness. Focal cortical lesions may produce deficits in circumscribed aspects of conscious perception. In the right parietal cortex, for example, such lesions may impair perception of stimuli from the left hemispace.''

When

''When do humans become conscious of external stimuli? The seminal studies of Libet et al6,7 provide insights into the timing of conscious awareness. Using trains of electrical stimuli to the human cortex, Libet and colleagues demonstrated that perceptual threshold decreases as the train duration is extended up to about 300 to 500 milliseconds and that longer train durations do not further lower the perceptual threshold. They called this 300- to 500-millisecond window the utilization time and suggested that it was the time necessary for a stimulus to reach conscious awareness. They argued that once conscious awareness was achieved, it was referred back in time to the primary evoked potential (EP) that served as a timing element. The finding that peripheral stimulation of the hand is perceived before cortical stimulation has been attributed to the absence of primary EPs during cortical stimulation and the resultant failure of time referral.6 Consistent with this theory, Libet and colleagues described a patient with a parietal stroke who exhibited reduced contralateral tactile perception and lacked the primary somatosensory EP on the side of the stroke. When given simultaneous bilateral stimuli, the patient perceived stimuli to the hand ipsilateral to the stroke first. Stimuli were perceived as simultaneous if the ipsilateral hand was stimulated about 400 milliseconds after the contralateral hand.''

''Masking experiments have been instrumental in further defining the temporal gap between stimulus presentation and its conscious perception. Masking refers to the suppression of conscious perception of a target stimulus by another stimulus. The masking effect is enhanced in some patients with focal cerebral lesions (eg, neglect syndrome), but it can also be produced in healthy subjects. In the somatosensory modality, a mask given 50 to 100 milliseconds after the target stimulus to the opposite hand is actually more effective in blocking the target than if presented simultaneously with the target.8 These findings demonstrate not only that conscious perception is delayed but also that the mechanisms leading to conscious perception are particularly sensitive to disruptions at this specific time interval.''
 
Well, that's where you go astray. Your assumption has no support....

You merely prove you are no philosopher.

Experience is evidence. It is more evidence than reading any study.

You reject the direct evidence of your experience.

You are no philosopher. Philosophers don't do that. They question experience. They don't say experience is not our primary evidence.

A philosopher understands that experience is the primary evidence we have and all other things, like studies which can be flawed and many times are, are secondary.

You can't make a judgement about truth that has any meaning unless you have the absolute freedom to make judgements about truth.

You have freely chosen to look at the methods of a study and how it was conducted and conclude it is absolutely providing valid data. You make so many of these kinds of decisions and have been making them for so long you are blind to your own will somehow.

You are not a philosopher of any kind so I know you will not be able to deal with this and I waste my time.
 
But the mind is derivative of neural processes controlling speech production thereby effecting neural process management. Providing neural input through aural processes interacts with existing neural processes managing speech production leads to changes in management.

The mind is a derivative we only know subjectively. And none of the subjective feats of the mind can be discounted. Feats like willing the arm to move or willing the next written sentence.

The mind is the center of experience and the center of the will.

To the individual their mind is that which experiences all they experiences and wills all they will.

The mind is both a receiver of information and a transmitter of information.

And you don't have the slightest clue what activity in the brain is giving rise to both the mind and it's abilities.

When you look at a brain and it's activity you don't know where the mind is.

That is your ignorance, not your knowledge. You want your ignorance to count as knowledge.

Doing so produces changes in that speech to the speech telling one to focus on relaxing. That in turn results in one relaxing neck muscles leading to increased eight to twelve cycle large EEG wave patterns. Those patterns are involved in processes relaxing other subsystems as well.

To relax a muscle the person is hooked up to an EMG with some kind of visual display so the person can see what their mind is doing.

They use their mind to change the needle on the visual display. That is all they focus on. Changing the display.

Over time they learn to use their mind to control muscle tone. But not by thinking about muscle tone.

It is very effective for people who suffer tension headaches.

You don't have a clue how people that actually have to help people think.
 
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