• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Free Will And Free Choice

It's something psychometricians do as a profession besides recording political preferences. It's also part of psychophysics. Lesson complete!

"Private interpretation of pain" is a wonderful expression. ... What troubles me is you seem to think the individual in pain doesn't really understand their pain. That is immoral and disgusting.

It troubles me as well which is why I find it strange you don't understand is the first one cares about is oneself.

It's a major advance in human nature for the group to understand what is pain rather than let the individual drive that feeling any way they want. There will always be ones who engineer feelings to their own ends. It is critical humankind understand some things are universally felt and to be decisive in responding to those feelings. Leave pain to the individual and we get another Mengele driving society.

The lesson has been learned. No wringing of hand emotional pleas will ever again be alone to drive the selfish. We are great because we know we are individuals that must act as a group to be great.

Amazing we come to opposite conclusions isn't it. Personal testimony should never be upon which one decides her next action. That is the stuff from which despotism arises.

The balance shouldn't be turned over to the group because the group is presumed to know is how individual belief comes to power.

However, it is necessary for the group to know and each individual be aware everyone knows. What's sad is we having this conversation while we are living in a time where the personal is being used as a club the group to gain advantage.

Well, you responded to my first sentence and a half. Congratulations on ignoring the rest of my post.

And nothing in your lengthy answer makes any sense whatsoever.

In fact, it makes the opposite of sense. You wrote:

It's a major advance in human nature for the group to understand what is pain rather than let the individual drive that feeling any way they want.

Excuse me????

As far as I know there is no such thing as collective pain. Only individuals experience physical pain. If you get your arm sawed off by a maniac, it is YOU and only YOU who registers the pain, it is YOU and ONLY YOU who has to experience that level of suffering. No group, no collective, can experience that pain with you. YOU are the sole authority of that pain: the ONLY entity who UNDERSTANDS that pain. And it does not require a team of squints and labcoats (scientists) to do studies and reach a conclusion to justify or fucking explain the suffering you have endured by having your fucking arm sawed off.

As I said, your attitude towards personal suffering is disgusting and amoral, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Your lack of empathy is tantamout to evil, in my opinion.
 
As far as I know there is no such thing as collective pain. Only individuals experience physical pain. If you get your arm sawed off by a maniac, it is YOU and only YOU who registers the pain, it is YOU and ONLY YOU who has to experience that level of suffering. No group, no collective, can experience that pain with you. YOU are the sole authority of that pain: the ONLY entity who UNDERSTANDS that pain. And it does not require a team of squints and labcoats (scientists) to do studies and reach a conclusion to justify the suffering you have endured by having your fucking arm sawed off.

As I said, your attitude towards personal suffering is disgusting and amoral, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

I guess you missed the episode where learning and empathy were united physiologically via a system of mirror cells. (The Mirror Neuron Revolution: Explaining What Makes Humans Social https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mirror-neuron-revolut/ )


I almost did myself. But back in the late eighties scientists, neuroscientists actually, discovered cells and structures associated with learning were to be found through out both the ascending and descending sensory systems. Findings were uncertain at first. (Cells that Read Minds: http://cf.linnbenton.edu/artcom/social_science/danced/upload/psy201mirrorneurons.pdf )These came to be known as empathy cells and systems since they responded, mirror, to the act of learning and to seeing others confronted with the same or similar situations. Apparently this works for sensing pain as well establishing the fact that pain is commonly expressed among humans and other mammals.

Damn scientists.

You really don't want to go too far with your notions about how stupid scientists, or, just me, are. I actually read the whole book and most of the references from The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Richard Shirer, and Mila 18 by Leon Uris. I am very sensitive to the bleating of those who want to justify their misery as the responsibility of others, which it is very clear to me you are doing when you insist personal experience is the only way such should be appreciated. We are individuals who happen to have risen to being social beings.

Like you, I guess, I was all about myself when I was young. I've since learned both of the advantages and disadvantages of accepting the fact we are social beings. There is actually nothing new under the sun. The human experience for the most part is a shared experience.

I'm sorry that your feelings have lead you to believe that those who think about group and common experience are enemy. It's something you will have to live with. I'd like to share but you won't have it. I can only suggest that you teach your children to not work at a saw mill. I lost a friend who did and I can tell you I feel his presence very much. Oh, by the way. My pain tolerance is extremely high. As a cure you could follow others who studied social species like ants, such as E.O Wilson, and Richard Dawkins. When you want to understand why you can't see quite right or hear everything consult your local scientist-doctor who gathers data and methods for both.

You shouldn't have gotten me started.
 
Same old Mantra. Nothing changes. Reject all research, evidence, analysis by experts in their field, only to assert and proclaim your belief, your faith.

Meanwhile:

Neuroscience, quantum indeterminism and the Cartesian soul

Clarke first outlines the dualism of Rene Descartes, who famously believed in an immaterial human soul separate from the brain, and responsible for rational thought. But this implied that an immaterial soul could break the laws of physics, and affect some physical processes in the brain, in order to control our actions. Even in the 17th century, this was regarded as a bit much:

Princess Elizabeth of Bohemia (oldest daughter of King James VI), wrote: “…it would be easier for me to concede matter and extension to the soul, than to concede the capacity to move a body and to be moved by it to an immaterial thing.”

But the 20th century gave new life to dualism. Quantum theory taught that physics is non-deterministic on the smallest scales; most famously, Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle states that we can’t know the exact properties of any particle for sure – only the probability of finding a certain kind of particle in a certain place.

Since then, a number of authors have argued that the soul interacts with the brain by altering the distribution of quantum states, in such a way that it alters brain function. Arguably, this would not be ‘breaking the laws of physics’ in an objectionable Cartesian way. Because, thanks to Heisenberg, there was always a chance that the system would have ended up the desired way all along.

But Clarke pours cold water on this hope:

We consider whether a fluctuation within the limits of Heisenbergian uncertainty could affect the presynaptic calcium concentration by permitting a chemical bond to be modified in an ion channel, as has been proposed…

Tinkering with presynaptic calcium channels is one of the main proposals for how souls could alter neuronal firing. However,

… even with the conservative value of a time uncertainty of 10 milliseconds, Heisenberg’s equation gives an energy uncertainty of approximately 5.2 x 10^-30 J, which is about 200,000 times too small to disrupt even a single Van der Waals interaction, the weakest kind of chemical bond.


In other words, even if the soul were only aiming to influence a calcium channel for 10 milliseconds, the bare minimum it would need to, it wouldn’t have nearly enough quantum ‘wiggle room’ to make a difference (the longer the time, the less room.)

Some have argued that even tiny quantum nudges could nonetheless control brain activity, because of the butterfly effect: a small change might lead, indirectly, to a big one, in the complex system of the brain.

However, Clarke squashes this idea too. He says that the brain is actually very good at not being influenced by tiny changes. It has to be, because thermal noise – the random movement of atoms, due to temperature – is constantly throwing up tiny changes, and this noise would drown out any plausible Heisenberg-based effects:[/I]


Thus, the thermal energy of the molecules is 9 orders of magnitude greater than the energy change that can be hidden by Heisenbergian uncertainty. But the functioning of neurons has to be resistant to thermal noise. And if the Heisenbergian uncertainty is amplified by chaos or in other ways, the far greater fluctuations due to thermal energy will presumably be amplified as well’’

Nothing I say has anything to do with dualism.

A brain gives rise to some phenomena that can act in some way on the brain.

When we understand it, if we ever understand what a mind is, nothing will be miraculous.

Your criticism is on the level of a second grader.

You stated that the mind is independent from the brain.

That is dualism.

Never once said it.

A have said the mind and the brain are distinct entities, not separated.

My position on free will depends on the mind being very intimately connected to the brain.

My position on experience requires the mind being very intimately connected to the brain.

The brain and the mind are two things. But intimately connected to one another.

And they are not different "substances". A meaningless term these days. They are both created by what is possible within this existence.
 
Mind is a collection of unproven generalizations about what human nervous systems, primarily, produce as behavior. No more.

To believe other wise puts one in the position of advocating other than material existence operates in the world. A concept which has been consistently destroyed as we gain more understanding of the world. There is no reason other than pride and conceit for holding such views. It's a sloppy way of thinking.

If we don't understand something about how the nervous system works we go back and find means to determine more precisely how it works. We build better tools. We find more applicable procedures. We reexamine what we do know and find other ways to consider that knowledge so we can better explain what is going on.

We don't throw up our hands and appeal to the superstitious beliefs of others to justify why we should do so. No thing that was discarded with the notion man was something different from other living things should ever be reified by those who actually want to understand.
 
As far as I know there is no such thing as collective pain. Only individuals experience physical pain. If you get your arm sawed off by a maniac, it is YOU and only YOU who registers the pain, it is YOU and ONLY YOU who has to experience that level of suffering. No group, no collective, can experience that pain with you. YOU are the sole authority of that pain: the ONLY entity who UNDERSTANDS that pain. And it does not require a team of squints and labcoats (scientists) to do studies and reach a conclusion to justify the suffering you have endured by having your fucking arm sawed off.

As I said, your attitude towards personal suffering is disgusting and amoral, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

I guess you missed the episode where learning and empathy were united physiologically via a system of mirror cells. (The Mirror Neuron Revolution: Explaining What Makes Humans Social https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mirror-neuron-revolut/ )


I almost did myself. But back in the late eighties scientists, neuroscientists actually, discovered cells and structures associated with learning were to be found through out both the ascending and descending sensory systems. Findings were uncertain at first. (Cells that Read Minds: http://cf.linnbenton.edu/artcom/social_science/danced/upload/psy201mirrorneurons.pdf )These came to be known as empathy cells and systems since they responded, mirror, to the act of learning and to seeing others confronted with the same or similar situations. Apparently this works for sensing pain as well establishing the fact that pain is commonly expressed among humans and other mammals.

Damn scientists.

You really don't want to go too far with your notions about how stupid scientists, or, just me, are. I actually read the whole book and most of the references from The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Richard Shirer, and Mila 18 by Leon Uris. I am very sensitive to the bleating of those who want to justify their misery as the responsibility of others, which it is very clear to me you are doing when you insist personal experience is the only way such should be appreciated. We are individuals who happen to have risen to being social beings.

Like you, I guess, I was all about myself when I was young. I've since learned both of the advantages and disadvantages of accepting the fact we are social beings. There is actually nothing new under the sun. The human experience for the most part is a shared experience.

I'm sorry that your feelings have lead you to believe that those who think about group and common experience are enemy. It's something you will have to live with. I'd like to share but you won't have it. I can only suggest that you teach your children to not work at a saw mill. I lost a friend who did and I can tell you I feel his presence very much. Oh, by the way. My pain tolerance is extremely high. As a cure you could follow others who studied social species like ants, such as E.O Wilson, and Richard Dawkins. When you want to understand why you can't see quite right or hear everything consult your local scientist-doctor who gathers data and methods for both.

You shouldn't have gotten me started.

Gotten you started? When did that happen? You have scarcely begun.

Are you prepared at any time to say something about pain that actually means anything?

I should stress: I am NOT anti-science, whatever the hell anti-science would actually be.

This is my point, and I ask that you understand what the hell it is that I am saying:

If a person has their arm cut off, they experience a sensation which we call pain. The person experiencing knows more about the pain they are experiencing than anyone else - scientist, physician, whomever. This is a fact.

No-one, not a scientist or a physician, is privy to the pain any individual is experiencing when they are experiencing pain.

If I get a hack saw and saw your legs off, you will feel an alarming sense of extreme discomfort. No-one around you will share in that experience: not even people who have had their legs sawed off. Because the memory of pain is not equal to the current sensation of pain. And a team of labcoats will not help you to suffer through the pain, nor will they convince you that you don't really feel the level of pain you say you feel.

No scientists need to be called in to do tests and run experiments in order to determine whether someone who has had their leg sawed off is REALLY in pain.

A scientific study of pain and how it occurs in the organism is important, and necessary; but no scientific study is required for an individual to know they are in pain, or to experience that pain.

I don't have anything against scientists. I love science. What I have a problem with is old farts like yourself who may have worn a labcoat at some time who actually seem to think they know more about any individual's pain that that individual themselves.

I have a major problem with that.
 
You stated that the mind is independent from the brain.

That is dualism.

Never once said it.

A have said the mind and the brain are distinct entities, not separated.

My position on free will depends on the mind being very intimately connected to the brain.

My position on experience requires the mind being very intimately connected to the brain.

The brain and the mind are two things. But intimately connected to one another.

And they are not different "substances". A meaningless term these days. They are both created by what is possible within this existence.


You have said that mind can act independently from the brain. That is Dualism. Whether or not you acknowledge it, you are a Dualist.
 
Searle's position is very close to my position.



The brain is sole known the source of mind. Given the evidence (conveniently ignored by some), it is a mistake to assume that consciousness is not a physical process of the brain. That we don't know how the brain generates the phenomena of sight, sound, hearing, thoughts, feelings, etc - which are the constituent features of mind - does not mean that the evidence points elsewhere.
 
Searle's position is very close to my position.

So you agree with Searle when he says that free will is basically an illusion:

Quote:
''John Searle, who is currently the Slusser Professor of Philosophy at the University of California, Berkeley, is one of the world’s most highly respected philosophers. In a recent nine-minute interview with Closer To Truth host Robert Lawrence Kuhn, Searle succinctly defined the problem of free will, in laypersons’ language. Although Searle finds it difficult (as a materialist) to see how human beings could possibly possess free will, he also realizes that it’s impossible for us not to believe that we have it. If it is an illusion, then it’s one we can never hope to escape from. At the same time, Searle is withering in his criticism of “compatibilist” philosophers, who assert that even if our actions are fully determined, we can still believe in a kind of free will.''

John Searle: We have no free will.

Robert Lawrence Kuhn: And it’s an illusion?

John Searle: That’s right.
 
WAB vents.

Your testimony about personal pain experience is certainly your personal pain experience. It may even be heart felt. However it is personal and not very convincing.

My statements about pain, on the other hand can be traced to traced to others who have testified and have been examined as, if you understand military service, few others are examined in the world. their testimony is documented by actual measurement of activities as they are exposed to extremely noxious stimuli in training or actual combat. Until WWII few had been measured in such conditions. Now it is common practice.

The reasons for such are obvious if you keep up with the advance in mental disease changes and treatment during modern warfare. Certainly you can't be saying such is unwarranted, unnecessary, unethical. If you are then here aresome pieces of information for your information.

1. Informed Consent and Ethical Issues in MilitaryMedical Research https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1197/j.aem.2005.05.037

2. Department of DefenseExperimentation Guidebook https://www.dau.edu/tools/Lists/DAUTools/Attachments/381/DoD Experimentation Guidebook, v1.0.pdf

At a personal level my son has a genetic disorder where his skeletal system fuses over time causing great pain and usually resulting in death during productive years, under 50, if extreme measures aren't taken. He's 54 years old now. His immune system is greatly suppressed. His spine is fused, his hips are fusing, and doctors are watching for activity around the heart.

Doctors are constrained from giving him adequate pain medication and because of federal law. He is kept from marijuana treatments which are available in CA by federal law. So yes we do have current access to current pain history and testimony. His nominal pain levels on the standard pain scale ae between 7 and 9 when being treated. he'snot being fully treated as i pointed out above. You take his numbers from there. In other words a normal person cannot usually reason under those conditions. He's not normal he's managing.

So when you say "I can't understand or appreciate this or that: consider to whom you are talking.

That should be enough for you to get the picture. If not well ....
 
WAB vents.

Your testimony about personal pain experience is certainly your personal pain experience. It may even be heart felt. However it is personal and not very convincing.

My statements about pain, on the other hand can be traced to traced to others who have testified and have been examined as, if you understand military service, few others are examined in the world. their testimony is documented by actual measurement of activities as they are exposed to extremely noxious stimuli in training or actual combat. Until WWII few had been measured in such conditions. Now it is common practice.

The reasons for such are obvious if you keep up with the advance in mental disease changes and treatment during modern warfare. Certainly you can't be saying such is unwarranted, unnecessary, unethical. If you are then here aresome pieces of information for your information.

1. Informed Consent and Ethical Issues in MilitaryMedical Research https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1197/j.aem.2005.05.037

2. Department of DefenseExperimentation Guidebook https://www.dau.edu/tools/Lists/DAUTools/Attachments/381/DoD Experimentation Guidebook, v1.0.pdf

At a personal level my son has a genetic disorder where his skeletal system fuses over time causing great pain and usually resulting in death during productive years, under 50, if extreme measures aren't taken. He's 54 years old now. His immune system is greatly suppressed. His spine is fused, his hips are fusing, and doctors are watching for activity around the heart.

Doctors are constrained from giving him adequate pain medication and because of federal law. He is kept from marijuana treatments which are available in CA by federal law. So yes we do have current access to current pain history and testimony. His nominal pain levels on the standard pain scale ae between 7 and 9 when being treated. In other words a normal person cannot usually reason under those conditions. He's not normal he's managing.

So when you say "I can't understand or appreciate this or that: consider to whom you are talking.

That should be enough for you to get the picture. If not well ....

How is what I am saying "not convincing"????

If you are working beside someone, and they have their hand cut off in a machine accident, will you actually doubt that they feel extreme pain?

Yes or no?

Yes or no - none of your usual bullshit.

"Get the picture..."

What "picture" is it you would like me to get?

I understand that a scientific study of pain, how it happens, what happens, and all that that entails, is important.

Perhaps we misunderstand each other.

I assume that you are suggesting that a person experiencing pain doesn't really know what they are feeling.

Is that the case? Is that what you are saying?
 
Searle's position is very close to my position.

So you agree with Searle when he says that free will is basically an illusion:

Quote:
''John Searle, who is currently the Slusser Professor of Philosophy at the University of California, Berkeley, is one of the world’s most highly respected philosophers. In a recent nine-minute interview with Closer To Truth host Robert Lawrence Kuhn, Searle succinctly defined the problem of free will, in laypersons’ language. Although Searle finds it difficult (as a materialist) to see how human beings could possibly possess free will, he also realizes that it’s impossible for us not to believe that we have it. If it is an illusion, then it’s one we can never hope to escape from. At the same time, Searle is withering in his criticism of “compatibilist” philosophers, who assert that even if our actions are fully determined, we can still believe in a kind of free will.''

John Searle: We have no free will.

Robert Lawrence Kuhn: And it’s an illusion?

John Searle: That’s right.

What an ignorant reading. You have concluded he is saying the exact opposite of what he is saying.

Searle asks:
is it the case that for every decision that I make that the antecedent causes of that decision were sufficient to determine that very decision?

He is not saying it is the case.

He is questioning that idea.

He is rational so he does understand that if every decision has a direct neuronal cause that would mean there is no free will.

But he does not ever say he believes that every decision has a direct neuronal cause.

If you watch the video you see his position is that the brain creates the mind and the mind makes decisions free of direct causation by the brain. Decisions are influenced by memories and experiences and knowledge and emotions. But decisions are made by the mind.

His position is very similar to mine but he has had no influence on my ideas. I had them long before I ever heard of him.

The ideas I believe are the ideas I have freely chosen to believe. Nothing has forced me to believe them.

And unlike you I can rationally defend my ideas.

Posting studies you don't understand and can't and won't defend in any way is not rationally defending anything. It is not rational discourse. It is masturbating in public. Crude and distasteful.

It would be another thing if you could actually defend the studies you post as opposed to merely worshiping their alleged perfection like a cultist.
 
WAB vents.

Your testimony about personal pain experience is certainly your personal pain experience. It may even be heart felt. However it is personal and not very convincing.

My statements about pain, on the other hand can be traced to traced to others who have testified and have been examined as, if you understand military service, few others are examined in the world. their testimony is documented by actual measurement of activities as they are exposed to extremely noxious stimuli in training or actual combat. Until WWII few had been measured in such conditions. Now it is common practice.

The reasons for such are obvious if you keep up with the advance in mental disease changes and treatment during modern warfare. Certainly you can't be saying such is unwarranted, unnecessary, unethical. If you are then here aresome pieces of information for your information.

1. Informed Consent and Ethical Issues in MilitaryMedical Research https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1197/j.aem.2005.05.037

2. Department of DefenseExperimentation Guidebook https://www.dau.edu/tools/Lists/DAUTools/Attachments/381/DoD Experimentation Guidebook, v1.0.pdf

At a personal level my son has a genetic disorder where his skeletal system fuses over time causing great pain and usually resulting in death during productive years, under 50, if extreme measures aren't taken. He's 54 years old now. His immune system is greatly suppressed. His spine is fused, his hips are fusing, and doctors are watching for activity around the heart.

Doctors are constrained from giving him adequate pain medication and because of federal law. He is kept from marijuana treatments which are available in CA by federal law. So yes we do have current access to current pain history and testimony. His nominal pain levels on the standard pain scale ae between 7 and 9 when being treated. In other words a normal person cannot usually reason under those conditions. He's not normal he's managing.

So when you say "I can't understand or appreciate this or that: consider to whom you are talking.

That should be enough for you to get the picture. If not well ....

How is what I am saying "not convincing"????

If you are working beside someone, and they have their hand cut off in a machine accident, will you actually doubt that they feel extreme pain?

Yes or no?

Yes or no - none of your usual bullshit.

"Get the picture..."

What "picture" is it you would like me to get?

I understand that a scientific study of pain, how it happens, what happens, and all that that entails, is important.

Perhaps we misunderstand each other.

I assume that you are suggesting that a person experiencing pain doesn't really know what they are feeling.

Is that the case? Is that what you are saying?

You've accepted on of the things I'm saying by admitting pain science is extremely important. I'm staying at the many people level when I say most people don't know, and to what you don't agree, what they are experiencing much beyond fear and shock.

We give people space. That's a good thing. We agree with what they feel that's a confidence thing mainly for them. But we know that along with pain there are other things going on such as shutting down, freezing, incapacitating, etc, that need be tended to with pain sufferers. I especially like how you immediately glommed on the empathy aspect of treating pain. Yes, even to the point of name calling.

We all must understand that feelings are personal first accurate maybe second or third, and suitable for making proper decisions probably not at all.

We are going to disagree on this last point given our orientations right up to the knife fight.
 
We all must understand that feelings are personal first accurate maybe second or third, and suitable for making proper decisions probably not at all. - FDI

...making proper decisions probably not at all - Bunk. Total bunk.

Feelings are personal - well of course. In this case we mean actual physical sensation, specifically the sensation of pain. We aren't referring to vague or nebulous emotions here, but real, physical, somatic sensations. Yes, these are subjective and private.

I think the mistake you are making is that since pain is "personal" then testimony of pain cannot be "accurate".

I submit that the only "accurate" measure of pain consists of the testimony of the person experiencing pain.

If you stub your toe, only you can know how much it hurts. Only YOU feel it. People can study it, but only you can feel it.
 
Look you spoke of an arm or a leg sliced off.

No. I'm just taking into account other processes such as adrenalin, blood flow change, defensive reactions, and the like.

Many people encountering brain associated life threatening trauma shift to more autonomic modes of behavior often showing such as Babinski reflex and uttering requests for water and other disassociated behavior which I observed when a biker uncle carrying a child behind him jumped a stoplight when another car was running that same light. The parents in the following car ran into oncoming traffic trying to protect their dead broken child.

You have to have had some experiences to make claims.

I remember a when drunken foreman had a thumb torn off when he foolishly tried to secure a seal on a box in a can line dropped to his knees and began searching for his destroyed thumb, traveling down the line, on the floor of the shop rather than screaming or calling for help.

Trauma is not a single sense thing. Reality? What is reality to the one suffering sudden first pain or the one suffering progressive debilitating pain.

Then again, whose to say that the one suffering her first cut feels and reacts the same as one who is continuously exposed to tissue damage.

Sorry. I can't be clear eyed and positive about how one feels pain.
 
Searle asks:
is it the case that for every decision that I make that the antecedent causes of that decision were sufficient to determine that very decision?

He is not saying it is the case.

He is questioning that idea.

He is rational so he does understand that if every decision has a direct neuronal cause that would mean there is no free will.

But he does not ever say he believes that every decision has a direct neuronal cause.

He doesn't say otherwise. That a being would choose something other than the direct cause as decision isn't free will. It is wishy washy thinking processes. What we do determines what we decide to do. If what we do isn't directly driven by local events it is driven by ancillary events. What you seem to be calling will is what is being done, not what one decides to do.. In none of those scenarios is there freedom.
 
You have to have had some experiences to make claims. - FDI

Oh, yeah, you're probably right! Sorry, I forgot. Since I've never had any experience of pain in my 57 years of human existence I can't possibly make any claims about it. What was I thinking?

Proceed...
 
What an ignorant reading. You have concluded he is saying the exact opposite of what he is saying.

I didn't conclude anything. I quoted an interview. I quoted what Searle said. The words are not mine. I made no interpretation. He does not believe in Libertarian free will. His narrative on 'acting on Gaps' does not salvage the notion of free will or help you with your own notion of mind or decision making.

John Searle on free will:Quote:
''The notion that free will is an illusion is based on the assumption that for any action we perform, the set of causes immediately prior to that action are sufficient to fix that action and absolutely no other. In other words, for any event that occurs, the events prior to it are sufficient to determine it. I can’t prove to you that this deterministic view is false. It’s an empirical question.

But what do you think?

If forced to choose today on the basis of the evidence we have, we would choose the hypothesis that suggests that free will is an illusion.''

And unlike you I can rationally defend my ideas.

You don't have a rational idea. You have assertions and declarations. Assertions and declarations that contradict a very large body of evidence for brain agency.
 
What an ignorant reading. You have concluded he is saying the exact opposite of what he is saying.

I didn't conclude anything.

You made a very bad conclusion to be able to ask this question.

So you agree with Searle when he says that free will is basically an illusion:

Searle never said it.

He said the exact opposite. Searle said this nonsense about illusions is not rational. There is nothing illusory about mentally giving the arm a command to move and the arm immediately complying.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Searle asks:
is it the case that for every decision that I make that the antecedent causes of that decision were sufficient to determine that very decision?

He is not saying it is the case.

He is questioning that idea.

He is rational so he does understand that if every decision has a direct neuronal cause that would mean there is no free will.

But he does not ever say he believes that every decision has a direct neuronal cause.

He doesn't say otherwise. That a being would choose something other than the direct cause as decision isn't free will. It is wishy washy thinking processes. What we do determines what we decide to do. If what we do isn't directly driven by local events it is driven by ancillary events. What you seem to be calling will is what is being done, not what one decides to do.. In none of those scenarios is there freedom.

He most definitely says otherwise. He says the brain creates the mind and the mind commands the arm to move. The mind has the ability to act on it's own without neural input. That is it's nature.

The nature of the mind is that the brain creates it and supplies it with the energy to act but the mind is a thing unto itself that grows and changes and has the ability to move the arm and move thoughts.

I didn't post that interview that some people don't seem to be able to understand.

I posted this:



I will discuss Searle's points in the video. He is clear, not wishy washy like some insane nut that uses their mind to conclude they don't have one.
 
Back
Top Bottom