• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Friends and Family Who Died Yet Were Never Saved

Unknown Soldier

Banned
Banned
Joined
Oct 10, 2021
Messages
1,541
Location
Williamsport, PA
Basic Beliefs
Truth Seeker
Most if not all of us have deceased friends, family members, and others we have known and loved who were not "saved Christians" at the time of their deaths. How can Christians live with the thought of those loved ones being lost forever separated from God? Apologist William Lane Craig says that it doesn't really matter because when they are with Jesus in heaven they will be so happy that those lost souls won't matter to us. Do you agree with Craig? I prefer that everybody just die and be done with it. No heaven could be so blissful for me that it could be worth others suffering the agonies of hell.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WAB
As Catholic I was told the unbaptized went to Limbo. RCC theology has a n answer for all questions.


In Catholic theology, Limbo (Latin limbus, edge or boundary, referring to the edge of Hell) is the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the Damned. Medieval theologians of Western Europe described the underworld ("hell", "hades", "infernum") as divided into three distinct parts: Hell of the Damned,[2] Limbo of the Fathers or Patriarchs, and Limbo of the Infants. The Limbo of the Fathers is an official doctrine of the Catholic Church, but the Limbo of the Infants is not.

It is believed by some that actual suffering takes place in Limbo, although this is not a very popular idea since it means that innocent people who merely were unlucky are suffering just like in hell.[3]
 
As Catholic I was told the unbaptized went to Limbo. RCC theology has a n answer for all questions.


In Catholic theology, Limbo (Latin limbus, edge or boundary, referring to the edge of Hell) is the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the Damned. Medieval theologians of Western Europe described the underworld ("hell", "hades", "infernum") as divided into three distinct parts: Hell of the Damned,[2] Limbo of the Fathers or Patriarchs, and Limbo of the Infants. The Limbo of the Fathers is an official doctrine of the Catholic Church, but the Limbo of the Infants is not.

It is believed by some that actual suffering takes place in Limbo, although this is not a very popular idea since it means that innocent people who merely were unlucky are suffering just like in hell.[3]
Obviously we're not the first to think of this problem in Christian theology. The Catholic church's attempt to resolve this difficulty is clumsy at best. It seems to me that the first Christians didn't even think about those who could not believe what Christians were claiming.
 
Jesus was speaking to fellow Jews, not to the entire world of humanity. Jews of the day had different views.

The entire RCC catehism is online. The Vatcan is filled with PHD level academic-theists. I doubt you will find any logcal contrdiction in RCC theology.

The Vatican theoligists eat, sleep, and think about theology. In the 90s the pope issued a proclamation that evolution may be part of god's plan. Theoligists earning their pay to keep up with chaging times.
 
THOMAS AQUINAS
In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. So that they may be urged the more to praise God. The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens to the damned. [Summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV, "Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned," First Article, "Whether the Blessed in Heaven Will See the Sufferings of the Damned?"]


Yeah baby! The RCC does have the answers.
 
From a pastor I know of:

Prophet B. Leyshon boldly speaks the truth as he recounts his recent experience with his Christian grandmother before she went to hell. This is a wake up call for all Christians as well as non-believers. Everyone must listen to this sermon before they die. The truth will shock you.
After all there's Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
 
It's only the evangelical/fundamentalist Christians who believe in the concept of being saved from hell, afaik. I was raised by such people, although they were converts to this type of belief system when I was in early childhood. My mom used to preach to her father who was a rather liberal Catholic. When she told him he was going to hell if he didn't become "saved", he would answer with, "Me and the devil will have a good time together in hell". This naturally dismayed her, but I have no idea how she coped with this after he died. She more or less convinced her own mother to believe like she did. Of course it's pretty easy to ask Jesus to come into your heart and save you from sin. That's all you need to do to be saved, according to this crazy version of Christianity. Nothing else matters. You can be the biggest asshole ever and still be saved as long as you ask Jesus to save you. How fucked up is that? Shouldn't a religion be based on good works, if one must. have a religion? Shouldn't a religion motivate you to be a better person, if you need a religion?

But, here's the weird thing, which I've mentioned in other threads. I told my mom that I was an atheist when I was in my 20s, but we remained close friends despite our different beliefs, since we had so much other things in common. My husband asked her many years ago how it was possible for her to believe that I was going to hell. After a brief pause, she told him that she didn't believe I was going to hell. So, perhaps even the most conservative Christians do have their doubts about this silly concept that if you don't believe in the same things I do, my god will punish you for all eternity. Then again, singing gods praise for all eternity sounds pretty hellish to me.

At least Catholics can pray that their sinning relatives won't spent too much time in purgatory, or so I was told by my Catholic friends. To me, that makes a little bit more sense.
 
Vatican theologians have a good gig. Plenty of wine and pasta, and all they have to do is think up answers to questions on theology.

Nice work if you can get it.
 
From a pastor I know of:

Prophet B. Leyshon boldly speaks the truth as he recounts his recent experience with his Christian grandmother before she went to hell. This is a wake up call for all Christians as well as non-believers. Everyone must listen to this sermon before they die. The truth will shock you.
After all there's Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."



Did Granny go to hell because she did not give enough money to this prophet?
 
From a pastor I know of:

Prophet B. Leyshon boldly speaks the truth as he recounts his recent experience with his Christian grandmother before she went to hell. This is a wake up call for all Christians as well as non-believers. Everyone must listen to this sermon before they die. The truth will shock you.
After all there's Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Did Granny go to hell because she did not give enough money to this prophet?

Something about demonic activity and her not going on her cross.....
 
This thread reminded me of an asshole friend of my mother's. My mother became close friends with a neighbor when she was in her 80s. The neighbor was Catholic, but I don't think the two of them ever talked about religion. They just took walks together and enjoyed being friends. I happened to be visiting New Jersey when the neighbor died. My poor mom was grieving and her asshole friend stopped by for some reason. She said to my mom, "Marie, did you talk to her about the Lord". I wanted to smack her because the woman was already dead, so what was her point? If my mom didn't try to "save" her Catholic friend, it was too late now, since evangelicals don't believe you can pray you dead friends into heaven. So now, my poor mom, who had been sucked up into the evangelical cult when she was in her 20s, was made to feel guilty for not talking to her friend about the Lord. It amazes me that people can still believe in an egotistical god who will torment people forever if they don't recognize him as their savior. I have a feeling that my mother believed that her Catholic friend wasn't going to hell as I think that sometimes during her old age, her beliefs softened a bit and that made me happy for her.
 
This thread reminded me of an asshole friend of my mother's. My mother became close friends with a neighbor when she was in her 80s. The neighbor was Catholic, but I don't think the two of them ever talked about religion. They just took walks together and enjoyed being friends. I happened to be visiting New Jersey when the neighbor died. My poor mom was grieving and her asshole friend stopped by for some reason. She said to my mom, "Marie, did you talk to her about the Lord". I wanted to smack her because the woman was already dead, so what was her point? If my mom didn't try to "save" her Catholic friend, it was too late now, since evangelicals don't believe you can pray you dead friends into heaven. So now, my poor mom, who had been sucked up into the evangelical cult when she was in her 20s, was made to feel guilty for not talking to her friend about the Lord. It amazes me that people can still believe in an egotistical god who will torment people forever if they don't recognize him as their savior. I have a feeling that my mother believed that her Catholic friend wasn't going to hell as I think that sometimes during her old age, her beliefs softened a bit and that made me happy for her.
And your story reminds me of a Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN) TV talk show I watched way, WAY back: the 1980s. The topic of that show was freemasonry, and it featured some "experts" who meant to expose freemasonry as a cult. Cult membership, of course, imperils souls according to those Christian apologists. One woman in the audience became very upset over what those apologists were saying. She explained that her late husband had been a mason and that she "just couldn't believe" he had engaged in cult activity. In all probability, she feared that her husband was in hell. The host of the show made a lame attempt to calm her by asking the apologists to consider people's feelings about loved ones who were or are freemasons.

So the Christian dogma of eternal life is a two-sided coin. While it may be comforting to believe in heaven, a Christian must also fear hell. Apologist William Lane Craig has argued that heaven will be so great that the thought of those suffering in hell won't make the saved any less happy. I wonder if that woman whose husband was a mason would agree with Craig.
 
Yes, but Freemasns are a cult.

Secret rituals.
 
This thread reminded me of an asshole friend of my mother's. My mother became close friends with a neighbor when she was in her 80s. The neighbor was Catholic, but I don't think the two of them ever talked about religion. They just took walks together and enjoyed being friends. I happened to be visiting New Jersey when the neighbor died. My poor mom was grieving and her asshole friend stopped by for some reason. She said to my mom, "Marie, did you talk to her about the Lord". I wanted to smack her because the woman was already dead, so what was her point? If my mom didn't try to "save" her Catholic friend, it was too late now, since evangelicals don't believe you can pray you dead friends into heaven. So now, my poor mom, who had been sucked up into the evangelical cult when she was in her 20s, was made to feel guilty for not talking to her friend about the Lord. It amazes me that people can still believe in an egotistical god who will torment people forever if they don't recognize him as their savior. I have a feeling that my mother believed that her Catholic friend wasn't going to hell as I think that sometimes during her old age, her beliefs softened a bit and that made me happy for her.
And your story reminds me of a Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN) TV talk show I watched way, WAY back: the 1980s. The topic of that show was freemasonry, and it featured some "experts" who meant to expose freemasonry as a cult. Cult membership, of course, imperils souls according to those Christian apologists. One woman in the audience became very upset over what those apologists were saying. She explained that her late husband had been a mason and that she "just couldn't believe" he had engaged in cult activity. In all probability, she feared that her husband was in hell. The host of the show made a lame attempt to calm her by asking the apologists to consider people's feelings about loved ones who were or are freemasons.

So the Christian dogma of eternal life is a two-sided coin. While it may be comforting to believe in heaven, a Christian must also fear hell. Apologist William Lane Craig has argued that heaven will be so great that the thought of those suffering in hell won't make the saved any less happy. I wonder if that woman whose husband was a mason would agree with Craig.
My father used to tell me when I was a little girl having some doubts about the religion I was being told was true, that god would eventually explain to us why people who didn't believe or had never even heard about Jesus would be sent to hell. Being about 7 years old, I tried to accept that explanation. Looking back now, as an older adult. I think that perhaps the reason I asked to be Baptized ( dunked ) at age 8 is probably because I had hoped it would be a magical experience that would help me understand what it took to be close to the Lord. It took me to age 18 to abandon fundamentalist Christianity entirely, and it took several more years of thoughtful consideration regarding other religious ideologies before I realized there was no god. When I reached that moment of realization, it was almost like being "saved". :) Saved from the fear and trepidation that religion often brings. Saved from wondering why there are so many religions, while wondering which if any of them are true.

If people need a religious belief to make them happy, to provide them with community or purpose, I don't judge them for that. I just despise religions that are used for hate and fear mongering. There are some very positive things in the Christian mythology, but sadly, there are too many Christians who use their beliefs as a weapon, as a way to judge and condemn others who don't share their beliefs. But, I digress.
 
My father used to tell me when I was a little girl having some doubts about the religion I was being told was true, that god would eventually explain to us why people who didn't believe or had never even heard about Jesus would be sent to hell.
My Dad's explanation was that all people belonging to other religions would get a chance post-death to see God and Jesus, and if any of those non-Christians "accepted" God and Jesus at that time, then they were granted heaven. Those who refused to bend the knee I suppose were damned. I wonder why God doesn't just show Himself here and now. It would prevent a lot of people from imperiling their souls and wasting their time with "false religion."
Being about 7 years old, I tried to accept that explanation. Looking back now, as an older adult. I think that perhaps the reason I asked to be Baptized ( dunked ) at age 8 is probably because I had hoped it would be a magical experience that would help me understand what it took to be close to the Lord. It took me to age 18 to abandon fundamentalist Christianity entirely, and it took several more years of thoughtful consideration regarding other religious ideologies before I realized there was no god.
I remember having doubts about religion when I was very young. I was raised Catholic, and I tended to see the nuns and priests as fools and phonies whom I must rebel against. My mother was violently paranoid believing the devil was possessing anybody who crossed her. I eventually told her I no longer wished to attend mass, and she freaked out telling me I was going to hell. I retorted that some of the worst people I know attended mass. I was referring to her, of course.

Anyway, I became an agnostic for a few years but started attending a Pentecostal church as a born-again Christian. I soon found that most of them were either phonies or fanatics or both. I discovered discrepancies and false prophecies in my Bible, and I eventually realized that Christian dogmas could not be true. Soon after I became an atheist which I have been to this day.
When I reached that moment of realization, it was almost like being "saved". :) Saved from the fear and trepidation that religion often brings. Saved from wondering why there are so many religions, while wondering which if any of them are true.
I felt that way too. Madonna's song "Live to Tell" was a hit on the radio at that time, and I really loved how it reflected the way I felt about escaping religion. I wanted to "live to tell" everybody that there is no God and religion is a lie. My euphoria didn't last long when I realized that most people did not welcome my telling them about my discoveries. They became very angry denouncing me as an atheist, and it didn't seem to matter to them how much I was hurt by religion. Their comforting lies were to be believed at all costs including the costs I had paid.
If people need a religious belief to make them happy, to provide them with community or purpose, I don't judge them for that. I just despise religions that are used for hate and fear mongering.
What religion isn't used for hate and fear mongering?
There are some very positive things in the Christian mythology...
What little good there is in "Christian mythology" can be found anywhere, and you don't need to pay the high price you pay to church groups. As for mythology as literature, I prefer the tales of King Arthur and Merlin the magician to most of what you read in the Bible.
but sadly, there are too many Christians who use their beliefs as a weapon, as a way to judge and condemn others who don't share their beliefs. But, I digress.
Yes. Christian beliefs do tend to be a handy club to beat people with. I don't think it's a coincidence.
 
My father used to tell me when I was a little girl having some doubts about the religion I was being told was true, that god would eventually explain to us why people who didn't believe or had never even heard about Jesus would be sent to hell.
My Dad's explanation was that all people belonging to other religions would get a chance post-death to see God and Jesus, and if any of those non-Christians "accepted" God and Jesus at that time, then they were granted heaven. Those who refused to bend the knee I suppose were damned. I wonder why God doesn't just show Himself here and now. It would prevent a lot of people from imperiling their souls and wasting their time with "false religion."
Being about 7 years old, I tried to accept that explanation. Looking back now, as an older adult. I think that perhaps the reason I asked to be Baptized ( dunked ) at age 8 is probably because I had hoped it would be a magical experience that would help me understand what it took to be close to the Lord. It took me to age 18 to abandon fundamentalist Christianity entirely, and it took several more years of thoughtful consideration regarding other religious ideologies before I realized there was no god.
I remember having doubts about religion when I was very young. I was raised Catholic, and I tended to see the nuns and priests as fools and phonies whom I must rebel against. My mother was violently paranoid believing the devil was possessing anybody who crossed her. I eventually told her I no longer wished to attend mass, and she freaked out telling me I was going to hell. I retorted that some of the worst people I know attended mass. I was referring to her, of course.

Anyway, I became an agnostic for a few years but started attending a Pentecostal church as a born-again Christian. I soon found that most of them were either phonies or fanatics or both. I discovered discrepancies and false prophecies in my Bible, and I eventually realized that Christian dogmas could not be true. Soon after I became an atheist which I have been to this day.
When I reached that moment of realization, it was almost like being "saved". :) Saved from the fear and trepidation that religion often brings. Saved from wondering why there are so many religions, while wondering which if any of them are true.
I felt that way too. Madonna's song "Live to Tell" was a hit on the radio at that time, and I really loved how it reflected the way I felt about escaping religion. I wanted to "live to tell" everybody that there is no God and religion is a lie. My euphoria didn't last long when I realized that most people did not welcome my telling them about my discoveries. They became very angry denouncing me as an atheist, and it didn't seem to matter to them how much I was hurt by religion. Their comforting lies were to be believed at all costs including the costs I had paid.
If people need a religious belief to make them happy, to provide them with community or purpose, I don't judge them for that. I just despise religions that are used for hate and fear mongering.
What religion isn't used for hate and fear mongering?
There are some very positive things in the Christian mythology...
What little good there is in "Christian mythology" can be found anywhere, and you don't need to pay the high price you pay to church groups. As for mythology as literature, I prefer the tales of King Arthur and Merlin the magician to most of what you read in the Bible.
but sadly, there are too many Christians who use their beliefs as a weapon, as a way to judge and condemn others who don't share their beliefs. But, I digress.
Yes. Christian beliefs do tend to be a handy club to beat people with. I don't think it's a coincidence.
I told my church friends that we had been deceived about our beliefs. One of them told me I think too much. That's just it. You have to think and seriously question your religious beliefs before you can consider them as myths.

You and I do have different views of religion, and that's okay. I disagree that all religions are bad for people. For example, I have several Black Christian friends. They are very loving people who don't preach, but obviously find great comfort, and community in their churches. They also value the more positive aspects of the Christian gospels and try to use those values to be better people. Humanism is in a way, a secular religion that shares many of the values of Christianity. So, of course, one doesn't need Christianity or religion, but a lot of religion is cultural. Liberal versions of religion become more progressive over time.

It can be difficult to understand why a Black person would embrace a religion that once used its holy book to justify slavery. But, like all other Christians, people can cherry pick the parts that are attractive to themselves and find ways of explaining the more negative parts. I've found that most Southern Christians don't go to church or push their beliefs on others. But, Christianity has had a strong cultural influence on the South. Having lived here for decades, I even use some of the cultural terms. If I must judge others, I will base that judgment on their character and values, not on their religious beliefs. Most of my friends know I'm an atheist and they give me the same respect. I don't try to change their minds and they don't try to change mine. People will cling to the myths and traditions that satisfy them. Extremism should be fought, but even atheists can become extremists. At the end of the day I prefer a society that can respectfully coexist. Enough said. :)
 
My Dad's explanation was that all people belonging to other religions would get a chance post-death to see God and Jesus, and if any of those non-Christians "accepted" God and Jesus at that time, then they were granted heaven.

To me, that's the only rational conclusion to reach based on fundamental teachings of Christianity.

P1) Almighty God loves all His children and wants them in Heaven.

P2) Almighty God gets whatever Almighty God wants, regardless of the opinions of puny humans.

C) Everyone goes to Heaven.


Anyone who still refuses to accept God, after having incontrovertible evidence, has something seriously wrong with them. If Jesus can give sight to the blind and raise the dead He can fix whatever psychosis would cause someone to deny God posthumously. It's the only rational and moral way to interpret the teachings.

There's a Christian denomination that teaches this. An otherwise ordinary Trinitarian view, but with Universal Salvation. It's called Universalists. It's not a "Get out of Hell free" card. Everyone needs some fixing before they go to Heaven. Some need lots. But it's not about vengeance, more like corrective surgery. Like having a broken bone set, or an organ transplant. It's not fun, but it's best in the long run.

Tom
 
I told my church friends that we had been deceived about our beliefs. One of them told me I think too much.
I was told that I go "too deep" which is something I'm not supposed to do. You and I were both being gaslighted which is a form of emotional abuse in which a victimized person is told that she or he is not thinking correctly when she or he speaks of the abuse that she or he endured.
That's just it. You have to think and seriously question your religious beliefs before you can consider them as myths.
I don't know of any religion that encourages its followers to test it and drop it if it fails the test. I'd call that a lack of confidence.
You and I do have different views of religion, and that's okay. I disagree that all religions are bad for people.
Actually, I asked you to cite an example of a religion that does good. I expected an answer to that question. Seeing, as they say, is believing.
For example, I have several Black Christian friends. They are very loving people who don't preach, but obviously find great comfort, and community in their churches.
That's not necessarily a good thing. Street gangs also offer comfort and community to its members.
They also value the more positive aspects of the Christian gospels and try to use those values to be better people. Humanism is in a way, a secular religion that shares many of the values of Christianity. So, of course, one doesn't need Christianity or religion, but a lot of religion is cultural.
I don't know why anybody would need Christianity to better themselves. I think it's more likely that people better themselves and then give the credit to Christianity.
Liberal versions of religion become more progressive over time.
Although liberal religion is more logically flawed than most fundamentalist religions, you are correct that liberal religion is generally more socially progressive than fundamentalist religion. Liberal Christians, for example, are more likely to accept gays than fundamentalist Christians are.
...even atheists can become extremists.
That's for sure. Some of the most fanatical, irrational people I've encountered online are atheists. Atheism is no more a cure for personal and social ills than smoking cessation is a cure for physical ills. But like smoking cessation, atheism offers one less reason to be harmed.
 
My wife and I have been talking about this topic for quite a while now.
Having your daughter get engaged, realising retirement is just around the corner, a younger sister becoming a grandmother, parents passing on etc. all cause you to think about some things much more seriously.
We have had relatives, friends die who were not saved and we do wonder just what exactly does that mean. Seeing it written in words is much different to actually contemplation the realities of said words.

How would Heaven for example be, if we knew that person X was not there? We are told that there will be no tears in Heaven.
I have no idea how it will work in practice i.e. you are in one place and family, friends are in the other place (choose which one you wish).
Speaking earthly it does not seem possible.
My wife and I will will leave that to God. It is his home and he is responsible for such things.
 
We have had relatives, friends die who were not saved and we do wonder just what exactly does that mean.

Maybe the problem is the use of the word "saved"?

According to Jesus's own Church, the RCC, Baptists are not saved. I know this because they taught me for 12 years.

Protestants are hell bound sinners who don't care about God, they make themselves gods. Or, at least, the humans who led them away from Jesus are made into gods.

Or something like that...

I dunno. I don't believe any of that stuff anymore, haven't for decades. I don't think humans know anything about who is saved and who is not. Any more than we know how Santa's reindeer fly.
Tom
 
Back
Top Bottom