From whom in the Black community should Kylie Jenner have sought permission to braid her hair?

[Derec]

You are assuming that people are posting comments in support of the article when you have no.fucking.evidence.whatsofuckingever. None. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Oh, but you're not the prejudicial one.

No. I was saying kind of the opposite - that they are likely to censor disagreeing comments.
But it really doesn't matter how many comments this particular article got. That article and that blog are not the only ones being all butt-hurt about so-called "cultural appropriation". I know we have discussed it on here at least once before.

 

[Derec]

Well, I think that if you want to understand ownership of a cultural aspect,

Nobody can really own an cultural aspect.

you need to consider commidification of culture.

Why? Somebody taking an aspect of culture and "commodifying" it doesn't detract from your use of it. And since nobody can really own it in the first place, there is nothing to prevent people using it as they see fit, including ways you may not like.
Cultural exchange has been a fact of life for millenia. I do not get why some people are so butt-hurt about it.

You also have to understand the history of that commodification.

Why?

If you approach matters of culture in a historical vacuum, not only will this never make sense to you, you will never be able to construct a cogent criticism of the concept in question.

It will never make sense, because it doesn't make sense.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't give a shit. What I don't understand is why you do.

Since we are discussing a topic, I thought I'd inform myself by googling. What's wrong with that?

 

[jladam]

You are assuming that people are posting comments in support of the article when you have no.fucking.evidence.whatsofuckingever. None. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Oh, but you're not the prejudicial one.

No. I was saying kind of the opposite - that they are likely to censor disagreeing comments.
But it really doesn't matter how many comments this particular article got. That article and that blog are not the only ones being all butt-hurt about so-called "cultural appropriation". I know we have discussed it on here at least once before.

You don't have one shred of evidence of one motherfucking goddamned thing. You can't tell me one solitary fact about who the moderators of that site are or who the so-called mysterious commenters are who've posted comments that have been blocked by the very same moderators who you don't have a fucking clue who they are. In absence of any fucking shred of evidence, you let your prejudices speak for you. That tells me all I need to know about you, Derec.

 

[Derec]

You don't have one shred of evidence of one motherfucking goddamned thing.

Chillax!

You can't tell me one solitary fact about who the moderators of that site are

A bunch of radfems no doubt.

or who the so-called mysterious commenters are who've posted comments that have been blocked by the very same moderators who you don't have a fucking clue who they are.

I tried posting a comment for one.

In absence of any fucking shred of evidence, you let your prejudices speak for you.

I have evidence. Why is it so hard for you to admit that you wee wrong about Discuss platform not precluding moderation before comments can show up?

That tells me all I need to know about you, Derec.

Ditto!

 

[Metaphor]

It was at least the author of that article on feministing.com, and I assume people who are members of feministing who opposed the ideas in the article might have commented, but if there were people who questioned it they were either unwilling or unable to say anything about it on feministing.

So, according to you, because no one commented on the article you assume everyone agreed with it. That makes you one hell of a mindreader.

I made a clearly rhetorical throwaway remark about the authors and membership of a particular site. If your contribution is to challenge me on that non-point, congratulations, you've made your contribution.

Here's another freebie: sometimes I say 'everyone on the Internet lost their mind' when I usually mean thousands of people at most!

 

[Metaphor]

Well, I think that if you want to understand ownership of a cultural aspect,

I'ma stop you there. Do you think a cultural aspect can be owned?

you need to consider commidification of culture. You also have to understand the history of that commodification. If you approach matters of culture in a historical vacuum, not only will this never make sense to you, you will never be able to construct a cogent criticism of the concept in question.

My first criticism of the concept is that I don't even know what it means. To appropriate something means to take it from its rightful owner and deprive them of it.

So I don't even understand how the words 'cultural appropriation' can exist next to each other. It's a contradiction in terms.

 

[Axulus]

I'ma stop you there. Do you think a cultural aspect can be owned?

you need to consider commidification of culture. You also have to understand the history of that commodification. If you approach matters of culture in a historical vacuum, not only will this never make sense to you, you will never be able to construct a cogent criticism of the concept in question.

My first criticism of the concept is that I don't even know what it means. To appropriate something means to take it from its rightful owner and deprive them of it.

So I don't even understand how the words 'cultural appropriation' can exist next to each other. It's a contradiction in terms.

I think the term you are looking for is "cultural misappropriation"

Misappropriation is the unauthorized use of another's name, likeness, or identity without that person's permission, resulting in harm to that person.

Cultural misappropriation would therefore be the unauthorized use of another culture's identity, symbols, and likeness without that culture's permission, resulting in harm to that culture.

Not really sure if that makes any sense (how does a culture give you permission? How is a culture harmed?), but I don't think it is a contradiction.

 

[Metaphor]

I'ma stop you there. Do you think a cultural aspect can be owned?



My first criticism of the concept is that I don't even know what it means. To appropriate something means to take it from its rightful owner and deprive them of it.

So I don't even understand how the words 'cultural appropriation' can exist next to each other. It's a contradiction in terms.

I think the term you are looking for is "cultural misappropriation"

Misappropriation is the unauthorized use of another's name, likeness, or identity without that person's permission, resulting in harm to that person.

Cultural misappropriation would therefore be the unauthorized use of another culture's identity, symbols, and likeness without that culture's permission, resulting in harm to that culture.

Not really sure if that makes any sense (how does a culture give you permission? How is a culture harmed?), but I don't think it is a contradiction.

Misappropriated funds result in harm to individuals from whom the funds have been misappropriated. A rightful owner can be identified.

You are right to ask 'how does a culture give permission', because I don't know. And, how do you decide who is an 'outsider' to the culture and therefore needs to get permission? For example, if you grew up on hip hop culture and music, are you an insider to hip hop culture? Or does the colour of your skin determine whether you're an insider or not, regardless of your orientation toward a particular cultural aspect?

However, the term I've seen consistently used is cultural appropriation, not misappropriation. However, cultural appropriation is always regarded as negative and morally bad.

 

[ApostateAbe]

When Kylie Jenner, famous for being famous, decided to tweet a selfie of her new hairstyle, someone called Amandla Stenberg and every person on feministing.com called her out for 'cultural appropriation'.

Since Jenner was accused of 'appropriation', I wanted to check my understanding of the term.

tr.v. (-āt′) ap·pro·pri·at·ed, ap·pro·pri·at·ing, ap·pro·pri·ates
1. To set apart for a specific use: appropriating funds for education.
2. To take possession of or make use of exclusively for oneself, often without permission: My coworker appropriated my unread newspaper.

So, I have to wonder. From whom did Jenner steal cornrows (thus depriving that person of them), and from whom should she have asked permission to wear cornrows?

I found this image on Tumblr, reblogged many times among people who take it perfectly seriously, a guide to when your seemingly-thoughtless actions are "cultural appropriation" and when they are not.

Even when you meet the criteria of understanding the cultural significance completely and FULLY understand and work to not abuse nor deny your white privilege, you still have to proceed very carefully, respect boundaries, and be sensitive, if you are someone with white privilege who is saying or doing anything stereotypically associated with a different culture.

I attribute the antagonism against "cultural appropriation" to a tribal us-vs-them mentality, where whites are perceived as the enemy who aggressively dominates all other minority groups. So, if you as a white man borrow anything stereotypically associated with a non-white culture, the burden is on you to conclusively prove that your intent is not culturally abusive. Same with white women. God help a famous white woman who styles her hair with a stereotypically black hairstyle, because it is very likely because she wants to steal from black culture, trivialize black culture, love the culture but not the people, make it cool for whites but not for blacks, capitalize on black culture, spread lies about black culture, perpetuate a racist stereotype, hypocritically do what whites punished blacks for doing, or something along those lines (these many contradictory white supremacist intentions are listed at EverydayFeminism.com). Hell, even if she somehow conclusively proves that she thinks no such things, it would still be wrong because she is a role model for other whites who will emulate her, helping subconscious white supremacists everywhere in their subconscious goal of disempowering the black identity. And Tumblr will not stand for that.

 

[jladam]

You can't tell me one solitary fact about who the moderators of that site are

A bunch of radfems no doubt.

I rest my case.

 

[jladam]

So, according to you, because no one commented on the article you assume everyone agreed with it. That makes you one hell of a mindreader.

I made a clearly rhetorical throwaway remark about the authors and membership of a particular site. If your contribution is to challenge me on that non-point, congratulations, you've made your contribution.

Here's another freebie: sometimes I say 'everyone on the Internet lost their mind' when I usually mean thousands of people at most!

If basically you're saying your OP was a tad hyperbolic, well, good on you then. Others, (ahem, Derec) may seem to differ.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Nobody can really own an cultural aspect.

Then how does one sell culture? Unless you are saying no one is doing that. Are you saying that? Are you saying that people dont consider cornrows a "black thang?"

you need to consider commidification of culture.

Why?

Because if you want to deconstruct an argument, you need to first acknowledge its existence and understand the whys and wherefores of said argument. You need not agree with it. I agree with little if anything you post, but I am not so scared of the arguments you make that I need to deny the reasoning behind the stuff you type. That reasoning exists and it does have a logic to it, it is just wrong and usually bases of faulty first principles and a mortal fear of having to say so.

Somebody taking an aspect of culture and "commodifying" it doesn't detract from your use of it. And since nobody can really own it in the first place, there is nothing to prevent people using it as they see fit, including ways you may not like.

Then what is the problem?

Cultural exchange has been a fact of life for millenia. I do not get why some people are so butt-hurt about it.

Do you want to get why? I don't think you do.

You also have to understand the history of that commodification.

Why?

because controversies do not spring fully formed from the mind of Zeus.

If you approach matters of culture in a historical vacuum, not only will this never make sense to you, you will never be able to construct a cogent criticism of the concept in question.

It will never make sense, because it doesn't make sense.

It does not make sense or it doesn't make sense to you? Or is doesn't agree with you?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I'ma stop you there. Do you think a cultural aspect can be owned?

I think it can be bought and sold. I think you can purchase a certain outfit or hair style and understand and reasonably expect others in your orbit to understand that you are going for a particular look that makes a certain cultural statement. Or do you not agree? Do I think you can stop someone from wearing what they want? No. Do I think you should by able to? No. Do I think whole Jenner thing is a tempest in a teapot? Yes. Do I think the inability of people to understand or the righteous indignation expressed at the mere mention of C.A. is a little bit valid and a whole lot of BS? Oh yeah

you need to consider commidification of culture. You also have to understand the history of that commodification. If you approach matters of culture in a historical vacuum, not only will this never make sense to you, you will never be able to construct a cogent criticism of the concept in question.

My first criticism of the concept is that I don't even know what it means.

Cultural appropriation is the adoption of elements of one culture by members of a different cultural group, especially if the adoption is of an oppressed people's cultural elements by members of the dominant culture.
Cultural appropriation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriationWikipedia

To appropriate something means to take it from its rightful owner and deprive them of it.

See above.

So I don't even understand how the words 'cultural appropriation' can exist next to each other. It's a contradiction in terms.

Oh I think you can understand how they can exist, because you started a thread about it and something about the concept upsets you. If you didn't understand it, how could you disagree with it?

 

[Metaphor]

Oh I think you can understand how they can exist, because you started a thread about it and something about the concept upsets you. If you didn't understand it, how could you disagree with it?

"Cultural appropriation", as far as I'm able to understand it, does not upset me. Opposition to "cultural appropriation" upsets me, because it seems to me opposition to it is populated by whiny, infantile, prejudiced people with an astonishing sense of entitlement and a totally warped, selfish, oblivious, and racist viewpoint.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Oh I think you can understand how they can exist, because you started a thread about it and something about the concept upsets you. If you didn't understand it, how could you disagree with it?

"Cultural appropriation", as far as I'm able to understand it, does not upset me. Opposition to "cultural appropriation" upsets me, because it seems to me opposition to it is populated by whiny, infantile, prejudiced people with an astonishing sense of entitlement and a totally warped, selfish, oblivious, and racist viewpoint.

You should have started off with that. Then this whole trip around Robin Hood's barn would not have been necessary.

 

[NobleSavage]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[laughing dog]

"Cultural appropriation", as far as I'm able to understand it, does not upset me. Opposition to "cultural appropriation" upsets me, because it seems to me opposition to it is populated by whiny, infantile, prejudiced people with an astonishing sense of entitlement and a totally warped, selfish, oblivious, and racist viewpoint.

Would say that about complainers from a culture that used the swastika before the Nazis?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

"Cultural appropriation", as far as I'm able to understand it, does not upset me. Opposition to "cultural appropriation" upsets me, because it seems to me opposition to it is populated by whiny, infantile, prejudiced people with an astonishing sense of entitlement and a totally warped, selfish, oblivious, and racist viewpoint.

Would say that about complainers from a culture that used the swastika before the Nazis?

Interesting that you should bring that up

Cultural appropriation in America can be audacious. Just look at the Ku Klux Klan

The late professor William D Piersen began to unravel the relationship between the Klan mask and the West and Central African spiritual tradition 22 years ago years ago in his classic book Black Legacy. Since then, the work of scholars like Elaine Parsons has further established the connection between early Klan costumes and African and Afro-Caribbean behavior and masquerading traditions in the colonial and antebellum South.

Like so much of American culture with African roots, the early Klan history is conveniently forgotten to obfuscate the contributions of enslaved people and to render them passive rather than active actors in their own narrative.

As a result, few know that the Klan unashamedly co-opted and perverted African spirituality, aesthetics and culture in their mission of restoring white supremacy to the American South. To this day, much of the Southern culture as practiced by many Klan members reflects this history: the banjo playing, soul-food eating and so-called rebel-yell (an imitation of the African/blues yodel) all serve as a reminder of how much culture was “borrowed” from the very people they had enslaved.

 

[Metaphor]

"Cultural appropriation", as far as I'm able to understand it, does not upset me. Opposition to "cultural appropriation" upsets me, because it seems to me opposition to it is populated by whiny, infantile, prejudiced people with an astonishing sense of entitlement and a totally warped, selfish, oblivious, and racist viewpoint.

Would say that about complainers from a culture that used the swastika before the Nazis?

Since the swastika has been around for thousands of years and used by dozens of cultures, frankly, no group does have prior purchase on the swastika.

Do you think the swastika belongs to somebody?

 

[Metaphor]

Would say that about complainers from a culture that used the swastika before the Nazis?

Interesting that you should bring that up

Cultural appropriation in America can be audacious. Just look at the Ku Klux Klan

The late professor William D Piersen began to unravel the relationship between the Klan mask and the West and Central African spiritual tradition 22 years ago years ago in his classic book Black Legacy. Since then, the work of scholars like Elaine Parsons has further established the connection between early Klan costumes and African and Afro-Caribbean behavior and masquerading traditions in the colonial and antebellum South.

Like so much of American culture with African roots, the early Klan history is conveniently forgotten to obfuscate the contributions of enslaved people and to render them passive rather than active actors in their own narrative.

As a result, few know that the Klan unashamedly co-opted and perverted African spirituality, aesthetics and culture in their mission of restoring white supremacy to the American South. To this day, much of the Southern culture as practiced by many Klan members reflects this history: the banjo playing, soul-food eating and so-called rebel-yell (an imitation of the African/blues yodel) all serve as a reminder of how much culture was “borrowed” from the very people they had enslaved.

This is getting absurd. Are we now comparing braiding one's hair to organised terror and violence against a race of people?

It seems to me that the problem with the KKK is the organised terror and violence, not that they 'borrowed' cultural traditions to add an additional psychological layer to the organised terror and violence.