Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

And no, I do not support Hamas. And I care a lot more about Israelis, let alone "Jews" than does someone like yourself, who supports using them as meat shields to fight a proxy war against Iran. Cowards hire someone to fight for them, in someone else's backyard. Do you self-identify as a coward? Do you think your country should be cowardly on your behalf, and throw other people's children in front of bullets for you?

You say you don't support Hamas but you do exactly what Hamas wants you to do.

Hamas wants peace between nations, socialized medicine, and improved cultural education? I must say, I am very surprised to learn that.

You try to stop Israel from fighting back, make them just sit there and die.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So by "Iran" you don't mean literally Iran, just... anyone that Iran supports in some way? Do you likewise consider every action by Israel to be "what the United States did"?

I litterally mean Iran. Like Hamas. A puppet regime completely controlled by Iran.

We know now that the 7/10 was supposed to be a coordinated attack by Iran, Hezbollah, Houthis and Hamas. All organisations controlled by Iran. Hamas just attacked prematurely. For some reason.

The military hardware that was supposed to be fired into Israel has already landed in Israel. Except Hezbollah's rockets. Hezbollah was crippled by Israel.

Israel is an independent country. They don't only act on the orders of USA. They are dependent on US support for their survival. But that's not the same thing as being a puppet regime.

If you equate Israels regime with that of Hamas then I will accuse you of anti Jewish race hate. So prevalent in the western left right now.

You're supporting genocidal actions against real human beings because of internet conspiracy theories? Yeah, no way that could end badly...

You're being as bad as the MAGAs automatically not believing anything from the mainstream media.

I mean, I do think it's healthy to be skeptical about the news, but what are you specifically referring to? I've not seen any reputable media source describing Iran as single-handedly responsible for the governance and military strategy of the nations they are in alliance with.

You're setting an impossible bar.

Saying that Iran is not single-handedly responsible for the military actions of their allies does not at all refute the notion that Iran is providing the money and weapons for the purpose of using them against Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wait what? Just stop. Loren did no such thing.

So you’re denying that Hamas benefits when concern for Palestinian civilians is dismissed, or worse, treated with hostility? Yes, Hamas uses civilians as shields. Yes, Hamas bears responsibility for many of those deaths. But to suggest that only Hamas supporters would care about those civilians sends exactly the message Hamas wants: that Palestinian lives don’t matter. When people demand that we stop caring about civilians, they’re not undermining Hamas, they’re reinforcing its narrative and handing it propaganda fuel.

You are imagining the hostility. I don't like it that they are dying, but I recognize that it's a Hamas tactic, every time they get someone killed you bash Israel. Hamas wants you to bash Israel, they kill more people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Only lunatics would say such a thing. Too bad the left today is gripped by a kind of collective psychosis right now. The fact that many share the view makes it less excusable. Not more.

It's not a psychosis, it's just they are being manipulated.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Acknowledging the suffering of Palestinian civilians does not equal siding with Hamas. It simply means recognizing that innocent lives are being lost. Hamas bears responsibility for putting civilians in harm’s way, and Israel bears responsibility for how it conducts its operations. Both realities can be true at once.

Which doesn't change the fact that you try to stop Israel from defending itself.

Like I said, the danger comes when people like yourself dismiss or ridicule concern for civilians, it plays directly into Hamas’ hands by reinforcing the idea that Palestinian lives don’t matter. Recognizing civilian loss doesn’t weaken Israel’s case, it strengthens it by showing the difference between a military that at least tries to acknowledge collateral damage and a terrorist group that deliberately seeks it.

Your arguments aren’t helping Israel, if anything, they’re more likely to do harm than good, in my opinion.

We are not ridiculing them. We are saying that by focusing on them you are being lead down the path of evil. Those dead civilians are a deliberate tactic by Hamas, the more you blame Israel the more Hamas will kill.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The fact that Palestinian grievances from 48 - 68 have merit, doesn't excuse any of the following Palestinian atrocities. And there have been many. A reaction completely out of any proportion. And also ignoring the political context of the Middle East. The 20th century saw an extreme reshuffling of the political board of the Middle East. People and ethnic groups were kicked off their land and shuffled around. They found a new home and made the best of it. Everyone accept the Palestinians. Every country in the world is full of refugees who have accepted getting pushed out of their ancestral home and making the best of it. That includes a lot of the Jews in Israel.

Remember that their treatment in the 48-68 period was by Egypt, not Israel.

The ignorance among the western left is, in this case, overwhelming. And has real life catastrophic consequences.

To pay attention is to accept the world contains horror we can't deal with.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Acknowledging the suffering of Palestinian civilians does not equal siding with Hamas. It simply means recognizing that innocent lives are being lost. Hamas bears responsibility for putting civilians in harm’s way, and Israel bears responsibility for how it conducts its operations. Both realities can be true at once.

Sure. But Israel is going above and beyond to protect civilians. Its still a war on. They're doing what they can to minimise civilian casualties without taking pressure off Hamas. The last bit is important. They are at war and need to do what they need to do to win.

If you can't see that Israel is trying to avoid unnecessary civilian suffering then I'll accuse you of unreasonable demands on Israel.

The US went way out of their way to not harm civilians in Iraq during the occupation. Over 100,000 Iraqis died, over 1 million displaced due to the failures of the occupation. And in the process thousands of US troops killed or seriously maimed.

The IDF doesn't have to be trying to harm civilians for there to be negative consequences for Israeli interests. The IDF is trying not to kill civilians, and are failing, and meanwhile the collateral damage is creating almost nothing but future risk to the lives of Israelis.

And we did much worse than Israel is doing.

 

[Politesse]

So by "Iran" you don't mean literally Iran, just... anyone that Iran supports in some way? Do you likewise consider every action by Israel to be "what the United States did"?

I litterally mean Iran. Like Hamas. A puppet regime completely controlled by Iran.

We know now that the 7/10 was supposed to be a coordinated attack by Iran, Hezbollah, Houthis and Hamas. All organisations controlled by Iran. Hamas just attacked prematurely. For some reason.

The military hardware that was supposed to be fired into Israel has already landed in Israel. Except Hezbollah's rockets. Hezbollah was crippled by Israel.

Israel is an independent country. They don't only act on the orders of USA. They are dependent on US support for their survival. But that's not the same thing as being a puppet regime.

If you equate Israels regime with that of Hamas then I will accuse you of anti Jewish race hate. So prevalent in the western left right now.

You're supporting genocidal actions against real human beings because of internet conspiracy theories? Yeah, no way that could end badly...

You're being as bad as the MAGAs automatically not believing anything from the mainstream media.

I mean, I do think it's healthy to be skeptical about the news, but what are you specifically referring to? I've not seen any reputable media source describing Iran as single-handedly responsible for the governance and military strategy of the nations they are in alliance with.

You're setting an impossible bar.

Saying that Iran is not single-handedly responsible for the military actions of their allies does not at all refute the notion that Iran is providing the money and weapons for the purpose of using them against Israel.

I didn't set the bar. The sentence "I litterally mean Iran. Like Hamas. A puppet regime completely controlled by Iran." set the bar. I don't deny, nor does anyone deny, that Iran and Hamas are linked. Just as Israel and the US are linked. We are taking advantage of an existing conflict in order to fight a proxy war in an economically depressed and politically alienated region, like most wars since 1950. It's disgusting, but it's what we do.

 

[Politesse]

And no, I do not support Hamas. And I care a lot more about Israelis, let alone "Jews" than does someone like yourself, who supports using them as meat shields to fight a proxy war against Iran. Cowards hire someone to fight for them, in someone else's backyard. Do you self-identify as a coward? Do you think your country should be cowardly on your behalf, and throw other people's children in front of bullets for you?

You say you don't support Hamas but you do exactly what Hamas wants you to do.

Hamas wants peace between nations, socialized medicine, and improved cultural education? I must say, I am very surprised to learn that.

You try to stop Israel from fighting back, make them just sit there and die.

I what now? When have I ever done anything of the sort? And why would they care if I did?

 

[laughing dog]

Observation: Every time Israel tries to do good they end up hurt. When they are harsh, they are less hurt. What outcome do you expect?

Observation - every time Israel acts harshly, they end up with a worse attack in the future. What outcome do you expect?

The general trend is Israeli deaths go up when they act nice, go down when they act harsh.

And then they go up more next time.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So by "Iran" you don't mean literally Iran, just... anyone that Iran supports in some way? Do you likewise consider every action by Israel to be "what the United States did"?

I litterally mean Iran. Like Hamas. A puppet regime completely controlled by Iran.

We know now that the 7/10 was supposed to be a coordinated attack by Iran, Hezbollah, Houthis and Hamas. All organisations controlled by Iran. Hamas just attacked prematurely. For some reason.

The military hardware that was supposed to be fired into Israel has already landed in Israel. Except Hezbollah's rockets. Hezbollah was crippled by Israel.

Israel is an independent country. They don't only act on the orders of USA. They are dependent on US support for their survival. But that's not the same thing as being a puppet regime.

If you equate Israels regime with that of Hamas then I will accuse you of anti Jewish race hate. So prevalent in the western left right now.

You're supporting genocidal actions against real human beings because of internet conspiracy theories? Yeah, no way that could end badly...

You're being as bad as the MAGAs automatically not believing anything from the mainstream media.

I mean, I do think it's healthy to be skeptical about the news, but what are you specifically referring to? I've not seen any reputable media source describing Iran as single-handedly responsible for the governance and military strategy of the nations they are in alliance with.

You're setting an impossible bar.

Saying that Iran is not single-handedly responsible for the military actions of their allies does not at all refute the notion that Iran is providing the money and weapons for the purpose of using them against Israel.

I didn't set the bar. The sentence "I litterally mean Iran. Like Hamas. A puppet regime completely controlled by Iran." set the bar. I don't deny, nor does anyone deny, that Iran and Hamas are linked. Just as Israel and the US are linked. We are taking advantage of an existing conflict in order to fight a proxy war in an economically depressed and politically alienated region, like most wars since 1950. It's disgusting, but it's what we do.

This is so common in this conflict. To compare Hamas and Israel 1:1 or Iran and USA 1:1. It's just antisemitic claptrap.

Israel and USA are allies. It means that Israel is an indipendent agent. They need to listen to USA, to a point, because they're dependent on American support. Because every country around Israel wants to destroy it. Because Islam.

Iran financed Hamas takeover of Gaza, and can dictate Hamas policy in detail. Among other things, to wreck the Gaza economy in order to make it completely dependent on Iranian support. Hezbollah and Hamas are virtually identically organised organisations. The only difference is the size (Hezbollah is much bigger). Both are Shia organisations. Palestinians in Gaza are almost completely Sunni. Yet have power in Gaza. Weird. Especially weird since Arabs are tribal in what they support.

Just stop your nonsense. It's not cool. People are suffering in Gaza right now. There's a war on. It's not the time to relativise suffering or try to downplay atrocities committed. And it's never cool to make excuses for a terror regime. The attempt by the left to try to gild the turd that is Iran and Hamas fascist regimes, is highly troubling IMHO.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The fact that Palestinian grievances from 48 - 68 have merit, doesn't excuse any of the following Palestinian atrocities. And there have been many. A reaction completely out of any proportion. And also ignoring the political context of the Middle East. The 20th century saw an extreme reshuffling of the political board of the Middle East. People and ethnic groups were kicked off their land and shuffled around. They found a new home and made the best of it. Everyone accept the Palestinians. Every country in the world is full of refugees who have accepted getting pushed out of their ancestral home and making the best of it. That includes a lot of the Jews in Israel.

Remember that their treatment in the 48-68 period was by Egypt, not Israel.

And who caused the Palestinians to move onto Egyptian territory? Please don't downplay the fucked up stuff Israel has done. There's plenty.

An explanation is never an excuse. Desperate people do desperate things. That doesn't make it less fucked up.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Acknowledging the suffering of Palestinian civilians does not equal siding with Hamas. It simply means recognizing that innocent lives are being lost. Hamas bears responsibility for putting civilians in harm’s way, and Israel bears responsibility for how it conducts its operations. Both realities can be true at once.

Sure. But Israel is going above and beyond to protect civilians. Its still a war on. They're doing what they can to minimise civilian casualties without taking pressure off Hamas. The last bit is important. They are at war and need to do what they need to do to win.

If you can't see that Israel is trying to avoid unnecessary civilian suffering then I'll accuse you of unreasonable demands on Israel.

The US went way out of their way to not harm civilians in Iraq during the occupation. Over 100,000 Iraqis died, over 1 million displaced due to the failures of the occupation. And in the process thousands of US troops killed or seriously maimed.

The IDF doesn't have to be trying to harm civilians for there to be negative consequences for Israeli interests. The IDF is trying not to kill civilians, and are failing, and meanwhile the collateral damage is creating almost nothing but future risk to the lives of Israelis.

I don't understand what are you arguing for? I remember your earlier plan was to get rid of Hamas through diplomacy or negotiation. Which is naive, to put it mildly. You don't come across as a guy with a sober view of the situation.

Saddam was one of the most brutal dictators in human history. While it cause a lot of suffering to get rid of him. We did get rid of him. Sure, Iraq has nowslid back into authoritarianism. But the previous Iraq war and ousting of Saddam, means that the current prime minister (and regime) are aware that they can't just do whatever. They now know the world is watching. That has value. So it might already have led to less suffering overall = a good thing.

There's plenty of examples from history. In 1948 there were revolutions all over Europe. They all failed and led to lots of suffering and repression. But what they did was remind people of the French revolution 1789 and 1830. As well as all the other uprisings around Europe. Those failed 1948 revolutions convinced all sitting monarchs that unless the franchise was expanded they would all lose their heads eventually. This put Europe on an irrevesible trajectory towards democracy. So even if, at the time, everyone saw the 1948 revolutions as failures. Those failed revolutions is why Europe is democratic today.

The rest of the world giving a shit matters. We mustn't abandon the Palestinians now. They've been through enough. It's time to rid them of Hamas.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Only lunatics would say such a thing. Too bad the left today is gripped by a kind of collective psychosis right now. The fact that many share the view makes it less excusable. Not more.

It's not a psychosis, it's just they are being manipulated.

That's a question of definition. An induced mass psychosis through manipulation, is both.

The left used to be about fighting for workers rights and standing up for the little guy. Now it just seems to be about passivity and rolling over in an attempt to appease bullies. And attacking eachother for not being passive enough. The left needs to be able to be dangerous, when necessary. Otherwise our opinions won't matter. If we're not willing to fight for our values, then we don't have values.

 

[ZiprHead]

Only lunatics would say such a thing. Too bad the left today is gripped by a kind of collective psychosis right now. The fact that many share the view makes it less excusable. Not more.

It's not a psychosis, it's just they are being manipulated.

That's a question of definition. An induced mass psychosis through manipulation, is both.

How do you determine it's not you who are being manipulated and suffering psychosis?

 

[Gospel]

I don't understand what are you arguing for? I remember your earlier plan was to get rid of Hamas through diplomacy or negotiation. Which is naive, to put it mildly. You don't come across as a guy with a sober view of the situation.

You’ve misunderstood from the start. I’ve been clear that Hamas needs to go. What I tried to do was discuss how Israel and the Palestinians ended up in this situation, but you twisted that into antisemitic rants, mistaking history for hatred of Israel. From there, it’s been one baseless attack after another.

And let’s not forget: every time I suggested possible next steps, you dismissed them. Yet you completely overlooked that Netanyahu himself has echoed the same positions you labeled as naïve or apologetic toward Hamas, like allowing Palestinians to govern themselves (without military capabilities) and working toward a better future. The only other ‘options’ are to wipe them out or relocate them all, which I once asked you directly about. Instead of answering, you and Loren deflected by accusing me of demanding ‘perfection’ from Israel, an irrelevant dodge that never addressed the actual question or my views.

 

[Gospel]

If you can't see that Israel is trying to avoid unnecessary civilian suffering then I'll accuse you of unreasonable demands on Israel.

Ok then you can drop the bullshit. I’ve said more than once that Israel is making efforts to avoid unnecessary civilian suffering. The harmful rhetoric comes from you, when you marginalize Palestinians and act as if they’re a single monolithic group that all voted for and supported Hamas. At some point you shifted that view, and I let it go, because unlike you, I don’t struggle to update my opinions when presented with new information.

 

[Politesse]

So by "Iran" you don't mean literally Iran, just... anyone that Iran supports in some way? Do you likewise consider every action by Israel to be "what the United States did"?

I litterally mean Iran. Like Hamas. A puppet regime completely controlled by Iran.

We know now that the 7/10 was supposed to be a coordinated attack by Iran, Hezbollah, Houthis and Hamas. All organisations controlled by Iran. Hamas just attacked prematurely. For some reason.

The military hardware that was supposed to be fired into Israel has already landed in Israel. Except Hezbollah's rockets. Hezbollah was crippled by Israel.

Israel is an independent country. They don't only act on the orders of USA. They are dependent on US support for their survival. But that's not the same thing as being a puppet regime.

If you equate Israels regime with that of Hamas then I will accuse you of anti Jewish race hate. So prevalent in the western left right now.

You're supporting genocidal actions against real human beings because of internet conspiracy theories? Yeah, no way that could end badly...

You're being as bad as the MAGAs automatically not believing anything from the mainstream media.

I mean, I do think it's healthy to be skeptical about the news, but what are you specifically referring to? I've not seen any reputable media source describing Iran as single-handedly responsible for the governance and military strategy of the nations they are in alliance with.

You're setting an impossible bar.

Saying that Iran is not single-handedly responsible for the military actions of their allies does not at all refute the notion that Iran is providing the money and weapons for the purpose of using them against Israel.

I didn't set the bar. The sentence "I litterally mean Iran. Like Hamas. A puppet regime completely controlled by Iran." set the bar. I don't deny, nor does anyone deny, that Iran and Hamas are linked. Just as Israel and the US are linked. We are taking advantage of an existing conflict in order to fight a proxy war in an economically depressed and politically alienated region, like most wars since 1950. It's disgusting, but it's what we do.

This is so common in this conflict. To compare Hamas and Israel 1:1 or Iran and USA 1:1. It's just antisemitic claptrap.

Israel and USA are allies. It means that Israel is an indipendent agent. They need to listen to USA, to a point, because they're dependent on American support. Because every country around Israel wants to destroy it. Because Islam.

Iran financed Hamas takeover of Gaza, and can dictate Hamas policy in detail. Among other things, to wreck the Gaza economy in order to make it completely dependent on Iranian support. Hezbollah and Hamas are virtually identically organised organisations. The only difference is the size (Hezbollah is much bigger). Both are Shia organisations. Palestinians in Gaza are almost completely Sunni. Yet have power in Gaza. Weird. Especially weird since Arabs are tribal in what they support.

Just stop your nonsense. It's not cool. People are suffering in Gaza right now. There's a war on. It's not the time to relativise suffering or try to downplay atrocities committed. And it's never cool to make excuses for a terror regime. The attempt by the left to try to gild the turd that is Iran and Hamas fascist regimes, is highly troubling IMHO.

Any evidence of this?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Iran financed Hamas takeover of Gaza, and can dictate Hamas policy in detail. Among other things, to wreck the Gaza economy in order to make it completely dependent on Iranian support. Hezbollah and Hamas are virtually identically organised organisations. The only difference is the size (Hezbollah is much bigger). Both are Shia organisations.

Hamas is Sunni, not Shia.

Palestinians in Gaza are almost completely Sunni. Yet have power in Gaza. Weird. Especially weird since Arabs are tribal in what they support.

You keep using the word "weird," but it isn't.