Gene editing of humans

[untermensche]

It is based on the fact that human diversity is not that large because humans have not been around that long.

It is called genetics.

What an IQ test does is exaggerate very small differences.

Insignificant differences in the real world.

Except in systems where test scores not total abilities are rewarded.

I work in IT. The job itself can be seen as an ever ongoing intelligence test.

A life of countless experiences makes some better at it than others.

That is true.

But nothing innate. Separation of ability exists because there is a separation of experiences. Beginning in the womb then the separation explodes at birth. Much less with siblings but even there you have a huge separation of experiences.

But even the different experiences in the womb already create large differences in personality at birth.

Experiences.

You have to throw in motivation too but that arises due to early experiences as well.

Practice, especially early in life, is important too, but that is just another experience.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It is based on the fact that human diversity is not that large because humans have not been around that long.

It is called genetics.

What an IQ test does is exaggerate very small differences.

Insignificant differences in the real world.

Except in systems where test scores not total abilities are rewarded.

I work in IT. The job itself can be seen as an ever ongoing intelligence test.

A life of countless experiences makes some better at it than others.

That is true.

But nothing innate. Separation of ability exists because there is a separation of experiences. Beginning in the womb then the separation explodes at birth. Much less with siblings but even there you have a huge separation of experiences.

But even the different experiences in the womb already create large differences in personality at birth.

Experiences.

You have to throw in motivation too but that arises due to early experiences as well.

Practice, especially early in life, is important too, but that is just another experience.

I'm sorry, but it's such a bizarre belief you've got. Demonstrably false

 

[Toni]

So the identity of the sperm donor should have no effect. It does, though.

Give the same sperm to a rich married woman living in suburbia and a poor single woman in an inner city slum and you will have two different children.

But experiments like this are not carried out.

Identical twins who are adopted separately have been studied, although it's not a large sample group. The twins who grew up in disparate circumstances are remarkably similar in many ways, indicating a strong genetic component. On the other hand, identical twins who grew up together in the same family also have strongly different characteristics--leading to the conclusion that individuals are individuals and even with the same genetics and upbringing, individuals still are not identical.

 

[untermensche]

So the identity of the sperm donor should have no effect. It does, though.

Give the same sperm to a rich married woman living in suburbia and a poor single woman in an inner city slum and you will have two different children.

But experiments like this are not carried out.

Identical twins who are adopted separately have been studied, although it's not a large sample group. The twins who grew up in disparate circumstances are remarkably similar in many ways, indicating a strong genetic component. On the other hand, identical twins who grew up together in the same family also have strongly different characteristics--leading to the conclusion that individuals are individuals and even with the same genetics and upbringing, individuals still are not identical.

There are no controlled studies.

There are weak correlation studies. With very few cases.

Nothing anybody should take as definitive.

 

[Toni]

Identical twins who are adopted separately have been studied, although it's not a large sample group. The twins who grew up in disparate circumstances are remarkably similar in many ways, indicating a strong genetic component. On the other hand, identical twins who grew up together in the same family also have strongly different characteristics--leading to the conclusion that individuals are individuals and even with the same genetics and upbringing, individuals still are not identical.

There are no controlled studies.

There are weak correlation studies. With very few cases.

Nothing anybody should take as definitive.

Exactly correct. It seems obvious that environmental factors play an enormous role in developing —and revealing intelligence. Genetics does play a role as well but neither genetics nor environment tell the complete story.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So the identity of the sperm donor should have no effect. It does, though.

Give the same sperm to a rich married woman living in suburbia and a poor single woman in an inner city slum and you will have two different children.

But experiments like this are not carried out.

Once again you missed the point entirely.

Babies conceived by artificial insemination are almost always going to have decent lives, thus removing a good portion of the upbringing effect.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Only someone who is ignorant would assert that highly intelligent individuals always produce highly intelligent offspring. The most obvious and well known example of this being false is Albert Einstein's child, who, despite being born to exceptionally intelligent parents was probably developmentally delayed.

And who on here has asserted that highly intelligent individuals always produce highly intelligent offspring?! Saying it's heritable only means it's appreciably more likely than chance, not that it is 100%.

Children of migrant workers or janitors or homeless people are often quite intelligent although this is also quite often overlooked by schools who see: poor kid and think dumb kid with lousy parents who don't care--which is not any more true of the child of a janitor than it is of the child of a CEO.

People often assume that the child of a professor or doctor or lawyer or CEO is intelligent.

Standard leftist denial of reality.

We have a very good example of what actually happens. Specifically, Poland. The war destroyed the schools and when the communists rebuilt things they were obsessive about equality. Did it change things? No--children still are highly correlated with their parents.

 

[untermensche]

So the identity of the sperm donor should have no effect. It does, though.

Give the same sperm to a rich married woman living in suburbia and a poor single woman in an inner city slum and you will have two different children.

But experiments like this are not carried out.

Once again you missed the point entirely.

Babies conceived by artificial insemination are almost always going to have decent lives, thus removing a good portion of the upbringing effect.

So in other words: You have no point.

 

[laughing dog]

I'd be more interested in gene editing if it was retroactively successful.

 

[Toni]

Children of migrant workers or janitors or homeless people are often quite intelligent although this is also quite often overlooked by schools who see: poor kid and think dumb kid with lousy parents who don't care--which is not any more true of the child of a janitor than it is of the child of a CEO.

People often assume that the child of a professor or doctor or lawyer or CEO is intelligent.

Standard leftist denial of reality.

We have a very good example of what actually happens. Specifically, Poland. The war destroyed the schools and when the communists rebuilt things they were obsessive about equality. Did it change things? No--children still are highly correlated with their parents.

You've never raised nor worked with children, I believe. Please tell me if that is not correct and I am mistaken.

I have done both.

Children are strongly influenced by their parents, yes. I can tell you with absolute certainty that there are plenty of children whose parents do work as janitors or in factories or bars or whatever who are quite creative and quite intelligent. I've gone to school with such and have worked with such. Children of farmers are as likely to be extremely intelligent, particularly in terms of science and engineering as the children of engineers. Where do you think that those engineers come from? Most Americans are only a few generations, max, from a farm.

Children raised by highly educated parents who are also interested in raising their children, who use complex language and problem solving experiences and offer, as a matter of every day living, opportunity to learn things THAT ARE MEASURED ON TESTS (by design or simply because that's what is valued) tend to raise children who DO WELL ON TESTS.

So do such children if their parents work as bar tenders, factory workers, farmers, etc.

Children of professors or doctors or lawyers or whoever--when their intellectual and creative needs are neglected also tend to not develop as well as they should otherwise do.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Identical twins who are adopted separately have been studied, although it's not a large sample group. The twins who grew up in disparate circumstances are remarkably similar in many ways, indicating a strong genetic component. On the other hand, identical twins who grew up together in the same family also have strongly different characteristics--leading to the conclusion that individuals are individuals and even with the same genetics and upbringing, individuals still are not identical.

There are no controlled studies.

There are weak correlation studies. With very few cases.

Nothing anybody should take as definitive.

Controlled studies in a situation like this are horribly unethical. That doesn't mean that what we have isn't good data. It just doesn't say what you want it to say.

 

[untermensche]

Identical twins who are adopted separately have been studied, although it's not a large sample group. The twins who grew up in disparate circumstances are remarkably similar in many ways, indicating a strong genetic component. On the other hand, identical twins who grew up together in the same family also have strongly different characteristics--leading to the conclusion that individuals are individuals and even with the same genetics and upbringing, individuals still are not identical.

There are no controlled studies.

There are weak correlation studies. With very few cases.

Nothing anybody should take as definitive.

Controlled studies in a situation like this are horribly unethical. That doesn't mean that what we have isn't good data. It just doesn't say what you want it to say.

There are no studies. No less controlled studies.

There is random totally uncontrolled data.

People can make whatever they want from it if they know enough statistical methods.

Random data has a mean and a standard deviation.

If genes create intelligence then every pair of twins should have the same intelligence.

The same exact intelligence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Controlled studies in a situation like this are horribly unethical. That doesn't mean that what we have isn't good data. It just doesn't say what you want it to say.

There are no studies. No less controlled studies.

There is random totally uncontrolled data.

People can make whatever they want from it if they know enough statistical methods.

Random data has a mean and a standard deviation.

If genes create intelligence then every pair of twins should have the same intelligence.

The same exact intelligence.

You failed statistics 101 here.

First, simple study: Look at twins that were adopted out separately. Compare their intelligence--sorting out for fraternal vs identical. If genetics plays no role there will be no significant difference in the relationship of their intelligence. (With a large enough sample size the random factors will average out.)

Another simple study: Sperm donors. If genetics plays no role the IQ of the donor will have no relationship to the IQ of the child. I do not know if this one has been done or not.

As for whether the twins should have identical intelligence--that's only the case if it's only genetics. It's not.

Having a mean and standard deviation only says there is a random component, not that it is totally random. 2d6+10 has a mean (17) and standard deviation (I'm not going to bother), 2d6+20 has a mean (27) and a standard deviation (exactly the same as 2d6+10), yet it should be obvious that they are not equal.

 

[untermensche]

Do you know what a controlled study is?

Do you know what it means to have data where nothing is controlled for?

 

[Toni]

As for whether the twins should have identical intelligence--that's only the case if it's only genetics. It's not.

Exactly. Genetics and environment both contribute to intelligence.

And then there are the tools used to measure intelligence, which are imperfect and measure different things, not necessarily intellectual ability.

 

[untermensche]

As for whether the twins should have identical intelligence--that's only the case if it's only genetics. It's not.

Exactly. Genetics and environment both contribute to intelligence.

And then there are the tools used to measure intelligence, which are imperfect and measure different things, not necessarily intellectual ability.

Genetics gives one the ability to have an intelligence.

Experience gives variation of intelligence.

What is totally discounted is the experience of the womb.

Every second in the womb is a unique experience.

So by the time a human is born they have had countless different experiences, and important experiences since they occurred during initial expression and the building of a brain.

A similar womb will explain any similarities of twins in terms of intelligence because intelligence is so many things.

 

[Toni]

As for whether the twins should have identical intelligence--that's only the case if it's only genetics. It's not.

Exactly. Genetics and environment both contribute to intelligence.

And then there are the tools used to measure intelligence, which are imperfect and measure different things, not necessarily intellectual ability.

Genetics gives one the ability to have an intelligence.

Experience gives variation of intelligence.

What is totally discounted is the experience of the womb.

Every second in the womb is a unique experience.

So by the time a human is born they have had countless different experiences, and important experiences since they occurred during initial expression and the building of a brain.

A similar womb will explain any similarities of twins in terms of intelligence because intelligence is so many things.

Exactly---and the mother's health prior to conception affects the developing embryo as well. So many variables at play.