George Zimmerman Arrested On Domestic Violence And Weapons Charge

[Jayjay]

Pointing out how taking a different action on part of either party could have avoided the event is hardly blaming anyone, it's a fact. It's no more disgusting than suggesting that Zimmerman caused the chain of events by leaving his car.

Yes, actually you are blaming Trayvon. He is not the one who did anything wrong. Innocent people minding their own business wandering about their neighborhood (like you just got done saying is not against your "rules") do not have to be mind-readers to take evasive actions to avoid their own deaths at the hands of overly aggressive violent self-appointed "neighborhood watch" people. Zimmerman is the only person who needed to change his own actions to avoid killing an innocent teenager.

Probably so, but was "leaving his car" the crucial part where it went awry? I don't think so. We can't expect Zimmerman to be a mind-reader either and presume that Martin wouldn't head for the back entrance, and had he done so, Zimmerman would be about 160 yards away, that hardly risks confrontation.

Besides, he was waiting quietly at the T was what Zimmerman did up until the point he met Trayvon again.

That is a pure fantasy speculation with zero basis in any sort of rational thought or fact.

No, it's a scenario that is consistent with evidence. Which is more than can be said about the other scenarios presented here.

 

[RavenSky]

I have already agreed that he created the situation leading up to the confrontation. It's the premeditation part that is important considering the nature of Zimmy's previous incidents of convicted and alleged violence - they are more like "heat-of-the-moment" sort of reactions with little time to consider the consequences. There was time to consider consequences between the 911 call and the fight. And how do you know Zimmy's apparent lying was about more than covering up the creation of the situation leading to the confrontation (assuming Rachel's testimony was truthful)? Because he lied about some things, everything else must be a lie? Is this just another thug of the gaps?

you seem to be arguing strawmen.

Please quote/link the post wherein anyone here said George Zimmerman is guilty of premeditated murder. Note the underlined word. You insist there isn't enough evidence to support premeditation. OK, so? No one here, to the best of my recollection, is claiming premeditation. If I am wrong, post the quote and link.

I've already agreed that Zimmy created the situation leading to the confrontation. But it is also possible that Martin reacted violently to GZ's verbal confrontation in the gated community - "Why are you following me?" could be said in different tones.

So? What "tone" could Trayvon have said "Why are you following me?" that would justify Zimmerman killing him?

It is also possible that Zimmy tried to physically stop Martin from "getting away" before the police arrived, despite having nothing but suspicion of drug possession and intention to burglarize. What I think happened between the two possibilities is really much less important than the lessons learned from the case, which should not exclude actions Martin could have taken.

The bolded is again blaming the innocent victim. Think of it in terms of telling a woman she shouldn't wear short skirts if she wants to avoid being raped. There is simply no possible way for a woman to account for every possible permutation of thought processes of every potential rapist so that sort of "advice" to be helpful. What it does, instead, is shift blame to the woman who is raped while wearing a short skirt. That is what you are doing, repeatedly, to Trayvon Martin.

Being proactive toward suspected crime is a two-way street (either vs. stalking/harassment or drug possession/intention to burglarize). If I had to make a choice (really why?), I'd go with Zimmy trying to detain Martin in some manner... but I wouldn't be surprised if Martin punched him before any physical contact was initiated. Therein lies the reasonable doubt.

To the contrary. Even IF we want to entertain the possibility that Trayvon punched Zimmerman first after the initial exchange of words, Trayvon has an absolute legal right to "stand his ground" in self-defense. Aggressive creeper stalker guy refuses to answer as to who he is pursing Trayvon through the dark and rain, despote Trayvon's attempts to evade aggressive creeper stalker guy, Trayvon has every legal right to use physical force as a self-defense measure.

 

[RavenSky]

He may have created the incident, but it wasn't by leaving his car and checking out where the suspected burglar may have gone which isn't an unreasonable thing to do.

that is exactly how he created the "incident" in which he killed an innocent teenager, and most certainly was a highly unreasonable thing for Zimmerman to exit his vehicle to check out where the suspected burglar may have gone.

What Zimmerman did was dangerous, stupid, and totally against the rules of the neighborhood watch program he claimed to be the captain of. Moreover, if Zimmerman had been chasing after a real burglar, and not an innocent teenager that Zimmerman wrongly profiled, it could have been Zimmerman who died that night.

Beyond making the 911 call itself, there was absoluetly nothing reasonable about George Zimmerman's actions that night, and because of his stupid, aggressive, unreasonable actions, an innocent teenager is dead, as in forever.

This isn't a video game where "dead" just means you lose a few points and reset the game. Dead means an innocent young life is gone and a forever grieving family is left to deal with the pain of that loss for the rest of their lives. And it was senseless... as senseless as George Zimmerman proves himself to be over and over and over.

The way some of you go on and on minimizing what George Zimmerman did, and shifting blame onto Trayvon Martin, I really think you forget that Trayvon Martin was a real living human being with parents and brothers and friends that loved him. Trayvon Martin was an INNOCENT teenager. How can you justify and minimize and excuse what Zimmerman did? Zimmerman and only Zimmerman is responsible for Trayvon's death.

 

[RavenSky]

Zimmerman had every right to check if Martin was leaving through the back entrance. And since he had called the cops, it was a reasonable thing to do also..that way he could tell them if Martin left the area. Observing and reporting to the police is not a crime.

. This right here. This is what Rhea and other keep telling you. This is where you are doing it again.

No, there is no inalienable right to follow other people, not even if you think they are burglars up to no good. In fact, in most municipalities, following other people without their permission is called stalking and it is against the law.

And no, it was not a reasonable thing to do either. You keep repeating that as if you will magically make it true, but you won't. It is NOT reasonable, and both the dispatcher and neighborhood watch training (he claimed he was the neighborhood watch captain) said not to.

 

[RavenSky]

Yes, actually you are blaming Trayvon. He is not the one who did anything wrong. Innocent people minding their own business wandering about their neighborhood (like you just got done saying is not against your "rules") do not have to be mind-readers to take evasive actions to avoid their own deaths at the hands of overly aggressive violent self-appointed "neighborhood watch" people. Zimmerman is the only person who needed to change his own actions to avoid killing an innocent teenager.

Probably so, but was "leaving his car" the crucial part where it went awry? I don't think so. We can't expect Zimmerman to be a mind-reader either and presume that Martin wouldn't head for the back entrance, and had he done so, Zimmerman would be about 160 yards away, that hardly risks confrontation.

it was one in a series of actions of the part of George Zimmerman that caused the situation to go "awry" resulting with him killing an innocent teenager. If Zimmerman had stayed in his truck, as he should have done, as he was advised to do, as he was taught to do if he was really the neighborhood watch captain... none of the rest would have happened and Trayvon Martin - the innocent teenager walking home from the store - would be alive.

Besides, he was waiting quietly at the T was what Zimmerman did up until the point he met Trayvon again.

That is a pure fantasy speculation with zero basis in any sort of rational thought or fact.

No, it's a scenario that is consistent with evidence. Which is more than can be said about the other scenarios presented here.

I know you are simply funning with me now.

 

[EPresence2]

I have already agreed that he created the situation leading up to the confrontation. It's the premeditation part that is important considering the nature of Zimmy's previous incidents of convicted and alleged violence - they are more like "heat-of-the-moment" sort of reactions with little time to consider the consequences. There was time to consider consequences between the 911 call and the fight. And how do you know Zimmy's apparent lying was about more than covering up the creation of the situation leading to the confrontation (assuming Rachel's testimony was truthful)? Because he lied about some things, everything else must be a lie? Is this just another thug of the gaps?

Please quote/link the post wherein anyone here said George Zimmerman is guilty of premeditated murder. Note the underlined word. You insist there isn't enough evidence to support premeditation. OK, so? No one here, to the best of my recollection, is claiming premeditation. If I am wrong, post the quote and link.

You are making a false accusation (again) Raven. Where did I say he was planning premeditated murder? The reference to "premeditated" was to the approach to confrontation (e.g., physically detain, question and stall). You don't seem to have a clue what I'm talking about - talk about strawmen!

I lost interest in your response thereafter.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't see who's arguing for that.
Do you mean you have some information that didn't reach me that Martin was waiting with a lethal weapon, ready to kill as soon as Zimmerman would step on the sidewalk?

It was suggested that Zimmerman should have stayed in his car, as if that was his crime. The context of the discussion is that Martin could have avoided the incident by going home, but that doesn't mean it was Martin's fault for failing to do so. Similarly, there is no doubt that Zimmerman could have avoided the incident by staying in his car, but it doesn't follow that it was his fault for leaving his car.

Zimmerman is responsible for his actions. There was no need for him to leave his vehicle and he was instructed to stay in the vehicle. He didn't.

 

[bleubird]

I think the mods should kill this thread.
Nothing will get solved here.

 

[marc]

I don't think Z's actions were premeditated. I believe his thoughts were to 'not let them get away', and his thoughts began and ended there. No thought or contemplation as to what that would mean, or entail.

 

[Arctish]

Please quote/link the post wherein anyone here said George Zimmerman is guilty of premeditated murder. Note the underlined word. You insist there isn't enough evidence to support premeditation. OK, so? No one here, to the best of my recollection, is claiming premeditation. If I am wrong, post the quote and link.

You are making a false accusation (again) Raven. Where did I say he was planning premeditated murder? The reference to "premeditated" was to the approach to confrontation (e.g., physically detain, question and stall). You don't seem to have a clue what I'm talking about - talk about strawmen!

I lost interest in your response thereafter.

Well, that's too bad because it means you missed this part:

It is also possible that Zimmy tried to physically stop Martin from "getting away" before the police arrived, despite having nothing but suspicion of drug possession and intention to burglarize. What I think happened between the two possibilities is really much less important than the lessons learned from the case, which should not exclude actions Martin could have taken.

The bolded is again blaming the innocent victim. Think of it in terms of telling a woman she shouldn't wear short skirts if she wants to avoid being raped. There is simply no possible way for a woman to account for every possible permutation of thought processes of every potential rapist so that sort of "advice" to be helpful. What it does, instead, is shift blame to the woman who is raped while wearing a short skirt. That is what you are doing, repeatedly, to Trayvon Martin.

RavenSky's point is spot on.

 

[RavenSky]

Please quote/link the post wherein anyone here said George Zimmerman is guilty of premeditated murder. Note the underlined word. You insist there isn't enough evidence to support premeditation. OK, so? No one here, to the best of my recollection, is claiming premeditation. If I am wrong, post the quote and link.

You are making a false accusation (again) Raven. Where did I say he was planning premeditated murder? The reference to "premeditated" was to the approach to confrontation (e.g., physically detain, question and stall). You don't seem to have a clue what I'm talking about - talk about strawmen!

I lost interest in your response thereafter.

I lost interest in your pompous strawman arguments a long time ago.

No one has argued for a "premeditated approach to confrontation" either so check your own "false accusation (again)"

You don't seem to have a clue what you are talking about either

 

[EPresence2]

I don't think Z's actions were premeditated. I believe his thoughts were to 'not let them get away', and his thoughts began and ended there. No thought or contemplation as to what that would mean, or entail.

Zimmy had a few minutes to think between hanging up the 911 call and meeting up with Martin. I believe it is very likely he was thinking about what to do when he found him.

 

[RavenSky]

I don't think Z's actions were premeditated. I believe his thoughts were to 'not let them get away', and his thoughts began and ended there. No thought or contemplation as to what that would mean, or entail.

Zimmy had a few minutes to think between hanging up the 911 call and meeting up with Martin. I believe it is very likely he was thinking about what to do when he found him.

in other words, premeditating



I stand corrected. Someone IS talking about a "premeditated approach to confrontation". YOU are! You are arguing with yourself.

Which makes sense given that you make a big show of *ignoring* everyone else

:laughing-smiley-014

 

[EPresence2]

You are making a false accusation (again) Raven. Where did I say he was planning premeditated murder? The reference to "premeditated" was to the approach to confrontation (e.g., physically detain, question and stall). You don't seem to have a clue what I'm talking about - talk about strawmen!

I lost interest in your response thereafter.

Well, that's too bad because it means you missed this part:

It is also possible that Zimmy tried to physically stop Martin from "getting away" before the police arrived, despite having nothing but suspicion of drug possession and intention to burglarize. What I think happened between the two possibilities is really much less important than the lessons learned from the case, which should not exclude actions Martin could have taken.

The bolded is again blaming the innocent victim. Think of it in terms of telling a woman she shouldn't wear short skirts if she wants to avoid being raped. There is simply no possible way for a woman to account for every possible permutation of thought processes of every potential rapist so that sort of "advice" to be helpful. What it does, instead, is shift blame to the woman who is raped while wearing a short skirt. That is what you are doing, repeatedly, to Trayvon Martin.

RavenSky's point is spot on.

That's a good one - but it's only spot on if you negate the possibility that Martin responded violently to being followed and verbally confronted. You don't seem to get any reservation for that possibility. Even if Zimmy attempted the bonehead detainment, there are things someone who is being followed can do. How is acknowledging those things "victim blaming?" More strawmen.

 

[RavenSky]

Well, that's too bad because it means you missed this part:

It is also possible that Zimmy tried to physically stop Martin from "getting away" before the police arrived, despite having nothing but suspicion of drug possession and intention to burglarize. What I think happened between the two possibilities is really much less important than the lessons learned from the case, which should not exclude actions Martin could have taken.

The bolded is again blaming the innocent victim. Think of it in terms of telling a woman she shouldn't wear short skirts if she wants to avoid being raped. There is simply no possible way for a woman to account for every possible permutation of thought processes of every potential rapist so that sort of "advice" to be helpful. What it does, instead, is shift blame to the woman who is raped while wearing a short skirt. That is what you are doing, repeatedly, to Trayvon Martin.

RavenSky's point is spot on.

That's a good one - but it's only spot on if you negate the possibility that Martin responded violently to being followed and verbally confronted. You don't seem to get any reservation for that possibility. Even if Zimmy attempted the bonehead detainment, there are things someone who is being followed can do. How is acknowledging those things "victim blaming?" More strawmen.

It is still victim blaming because - in your continued speculation that Trayvon "responded violently to being followed and verbally confronted", you are denying Trayvon his legal right to stand his ground in his own self-defense

 

[EPresence2]

Zimmy had a few minutes to think between hanging up the 911 call and meeting up with Martin. I believe it is very likely he was thinking about what to do when he found him.

in other words, premeditating



I stand corrected. Someone IS talking about a "premeditated approach to confrontation". YOU are! You are arguing with yourself.

Which makes sense given that you make a big show of *ignoring* everyone else

:laughing-smiley-014

This is a sorry excuse for respectable dialog. What a laughable attempt at making another strawman "arguing with myself" horseshit. Besides, I'm done putting folks on the ignore list - I said it was useless and I reckon you conveniently missed that. Why are you bringing that up Raven/Supermod? Maybe you should kill this thread.

 

[EPresence2]

Well, that's too bad because it means you missed this part:

It is also possible that Zimmy tried to physically stop Martin from "getting away" before the police arrived, despite having nothing but suspicion of drug possession and intention to burglarize. What I think happened between the two possibilities is really much less important than the lessons learned from the case, which should not exclude actions Martin could have taken.

The bolded is again blaming the innocent victim. Think of it in terms of telling a woman she shouldn't wear short skirts if she wants to avoid being raped. There is simply no possible way for a woman to account for every possible permutation of thought processes of every potential rapist so that sort of "advice" to be helpful. What it does, instead, is shift blame to the woman who is raped while wearing a short skirt. That is what you are doing, repeatedly, to Trayvon Martin.

RavenSky's point is spot on.

That's a good one - but it's only spot on if you negate the possibility that Martin responded violently to being followed and verbally confronted. You don't seem to get any reservation for that possibility. Even if Zimmy attempted the bonehead detainment, there are things someone who is being followed can do. How is acknowledging those things "victim blaming?" More strawmen.

It is still victim blaming because - in your continued speculation that Trayvon "responded violently to being followed and verbally confronted", you are denying Trayvon his legal right to stand his ground in his own self-defense

That depends on what Martin was thinking about Zimmerman, which has already been stated on this thread. Your mind-reading does not pass for facts.

 

[Rhea]

It is still victim blaming because - in your continued speculation that Trayvon "responded violently to being followed and verbally confronted", you are denying Trayvon his legal right to stand his ground in his own self-defense

Legal and reasonable when getting stalked.

 

[bleubird]

Urban rule#7
Don't bring skittles and an Arizona to a gun fight.

 

[RavenSky]

Well, that's too bad because it means you missed this part:

It is also possible that Zimmy tried to physically stop Martin from "getting away" before the police arrived, despite having nothing but suspicion of drug possession and intention to burglarize. What I think happened between the two possibilities is really much less important than the lessons learned from the case, which should not exclude actions Martin could have taken.

The bolded is again blaming the innocent victim. Think of it in terms of telling a woman she shouldn't wear short skirts if she wants to avoid being raped. There is simply no possible way for a woman to account for every possible permutation of thought processes of every potential rapist so that sort of "advice" to be helpful. What it does, instead, is shift blame to the woman who is raped while wearing a short skirt. That is what you are doing, repeatedly, to Trayvon Martin.

RavenSky's point is spot on.

That's a good one - but it's only spot on if you negate the possibility that Martin responded violently to being followed and verbally confronted. You don't seem to get any reservation for that possibility. Even if Zimmy attempted the bonehead detainment, there are things someone who is being followed can do. How is acknowledging those things "victim blaming?" More strawmen.

It is still victim blaming because - in your continued speculation that Trayvon "responded violently to being followed and verbally confronted", you are denying Trayvon his legal right to stand his ground in his own self-defense

That depends on what Martin was thinking about Zimmerman, which has already been stated on this thread. Your mind-reading does not pass for facts.

You are the only one pretending to be a mind-reader:

Zimmy had a few minutes to think between hanging up the 911 call and meeting up with Martin. I believe it is very likely he was thinking about what to do when he found him.

Really? Please present the FACTS that support your contention that George Zimmerman premeditated what he would do when he found Trayvon