God and him being source of objective moral vales

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Cont...otherwise you have no way of knowing which one is right because theoretically they are all smarter than you, more powerful than you, have a grand plan you dont understand and so forth.

That's because we invent them to fit our present needs, and we change them as those needs change.

The only honestly objective thing we know about gods is that there are none. If someone wants to show me one I'll concede that point and then we can move on to asking it to discuss the present thread.

 

[fromderinside]

Thanks. But I don't exist.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The idea that a God could be an "objective source of morality" is just the confusion of morality with obedience to power. Rather scary really.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The idea that a God could be an "objective source of morality" is just the confusion of morality with obedience to power. Rather scary really.

Gods typically aren't interested in input. It's usually about power, punishment and fear, qualities humans express in abundance. How not so strange.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Imagine if there was a God who took suggestions and let you vote on things. Instead of the collection plate, its a suggestion box.

 

[Wiploc]

The idea that a God could be an "objective source of morality" is just the confusion of morality with obedience to power. Rather scary really.

 

[Bronzeage]

Imagine if there was a God who took suggestions and let you vote on things. Instead of the collection plate, its a suggestion box.

That's actually pretty close to reality.

Morality has always been a list of suggested and expected behavior. One shouldn't lie, but you can, if you want to. There maybe consequences, or maybe not. Most moral offenses do not rise to the level where a response is needed by the general public. Without public censure, we are left wondering what is moral and what is not.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Imagine if there was a God who took suggestions and let you vote on things. Instead of the collection plate, its a suggestion box.

That's actually pretty close to reality.

Morality has always been a list of suggested and expected behavior. One shouldn't lie, but you can, if you want to. There maybe consequences, or maybe not. Most moral offenses do not rise to the level where a response is needed by the general public. Without public censure, we are left wondering what is moral and what is not.

This is why even scoundrels wrap themselves in piety, they do it because it works. The nuclear option is to claim divine right.

 

[fromderinside]

God seeking may have it's scofflaws. Does that alone eliminate it from being considered a preferred way to advance morality in a culture?

I say no. We need to 'spalain the universality of faith in culture. Putting poison int the brew isn't going to get there. We also need to explain why rule breaking is such a desirable thing to may given risks.

Humans tend to be followers and believers because doing so usually leads to beneficial results. Scofflaws do so because in a believing culture they can often get away with it again yielding beneficial results. All of these behaviors and outcomes are a result of being social animals which generally leads to more success than does being self reliant loners. Although being a loner yields benefits to some until they come in to contact with social organization at a more or less equal physical level.

We aren't designed which is why most of those who know that are not believers in fairies. A certain ignorance is required for following, believing, scofflaws,etc. Seen this way it is pretty evident that empiricism is the cloth of the antichrist.

 

[Torin]

The idea that we need to make things up to treat each other with basic decency is so absurd as to be unworthy of serious debate. It is utterly damning to the Christian faith that it apparently renders people incapable of grasping the beneficial effects of moral behavior in the real world.

 

[Lion IRC]

The idea that we need to make things up to treat each other with basic decency is so absurd as to be unworthy of serious debate. It is utterly damning to the Christian faith that it apparently renders people incapable of grasping the beneficial effects of moral behavior in the real world.

Are unmarked police cars real or imaginary?
Do people behave differently when they imagine there are hidden CCTV cameras watching?

The problem isn't that people make up their own religion, it's that they make up their own definition of good/evil.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The idea that we need to make things up to treat each other with basic decency is so absurd as to be unworthy of serious debate. It is utterly damning to the Christian faith that it apparently renders people incapable of grasping the beneficial effects of moral behavior in the real world.

Are unmarked police cars real or imaginary?
Do people behave differently when they imagine there are hidden CCTV cameras watching?

The problem isn't that people make up their own religion, it's that they make up their own definition of good/evil.

Is Princess Alice real or imaginary? Is Princess Alice good or evil? Who is Princess Alice? Will the real Princess Alice please stand up?

 

[abaddon]

The idea that we need to make things up to treat each other with basic decency is so absurd as to be unworthy of serious debate. It is utterly damning to the Christian faith that it apparently renders people incapable of grasping the beneficial effects of moral behavior in the real world.

Are unmarked police cars real or imaginary?
Do people behave differently when they imagine there are hidden CCTV cameras watching?

The problem isn't that people make up their own religion, it's that they make up their own definition of good/evil.

The cameras illustrate the uselessness of objective morality and God. People learn this-worldly subjective reasons to not be extremely selfish, or they don't learn anything of value regarding morality. Authority-based "objective" morality only makes the uncaring more careful to not be seen.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The idea that we need to make things up to treat each other with basic decency is so absurd as to be unworthy of serious debate. It is utterly damning to the Christian faith that it apparently renders people incapable of grasping the beneficial effects of moral behavior in the real world.

Are unmarked police cars real or imaginary?
Do people behave differently when they imagine there are hidden CCTV cameras watching?

The problem isn't that people make up their own religion, it's that they make up their own definition of good/evil.

The cameras illustrate the uselessness of objective morality and God. People learn this-worldly subjective reasons to not be extremely selfish, or they don't learn anything of value regarding morality. Authority-based "objective" morality only makes the uncaring more careful to not be seen.

It certainly exposes a lot of religious hypocrisy, that much is certain.

 

[BH]

The idea that we need to make things up to treat each other with basic decency is so absurd as to be unworthy of serious debate. It is utterly damning to the Christian faith that it apparently renders people incapable of grasping the beneficial effects of moral behavior in the real world.

Are unmarked police cars real or imaginary?
Do people behave differently when they imagine there are hidden CCTV cameras watching?

The problem isn't that people make up their own religion, it's that they make up their own definition of good/evil.

That's just a reality of existence that people refuse to accept.

 

[Torin]

The idea that we need to make things up to treat each other with basic decency is so absurd as to be unworthy of serious debate. It is utterly damning to the Christian faith that it apparently renders people incapable of grasping the beneficial effects of moral behavior in the real world.

Are unmarked police cars real or imaginary?
Do people behave differently when they imagine there are hidden CCTV cameras watching?

The problem isn't that people make up their own religion, it's that they make up their own definition of good/evil.

No, most people don't need unmarked police cars or hidden cameras not to commit crimes.

 

[Lion IRC]

You didn't address the question of whether imaginary law enforcement was effective.
Your point was that in religion, the undercover police and hidden CCTV cameras are imaginary - that we "make things up".

 

[fromderinside]

No, most people don't need unmarked police cars or hidden cameras not to commit crimes.

Actually, in the spirit of the topic society is ready to spend money inducing fear because some scoff at religiously based morality when they know that in reality they can get away with a lot without being constrained. Fantasy adding fantacy to control reality against fantasy. All that is necessary is to identify scofflaws, analyze their actions, then make realistic corrections targeting those who have been analyzed.

However, laziness is an attribute of religious fantasies so the above remedy will never be tried since it is a realistic solution. The religious would rather blame than act realistically.

From the font of whatever it is that combats fiction.