# "God cannot create a square circle"

#### Learner

##### Veteran Member
Math is a human creation. It is an abstraction of reality. Reality does not have numbers or derivatives or circles or straight lines. Only human math does.

My perspective is that the universe is so formulated in a way that we see certain characteristics of many elements of matter currently known, to behave accordingly to what is expected. I would agree with the notion that the maths we understand is a man made invention at the same time,a mathematical essence was always there to be discovered. By this I mean it is only the 'measuring units' we have invented. We can change about these measuring units and still get fairly precise calculations.

#### untermensche

##### Contributor
Math is a human creation. It is an abstraction of reality. Reality does not have numbers or derivatives or circles or straight lines. Only human math does.

My perspective is that the universe is so formulated in a way that we see certain characteristics of many elements of matter currently known, to behave accordingly to what is expected. I would agree with the notion that the maths we understand is a man made invention at the same time,a mathematical essence was always there to be discovered. By this I mean it is only the 'measuring units' we have invented. We can change about these measuring units and still get fairly precise calculations.
That is what people say.

I disagree.

Math is not out there. It is in the human mind.

Not one aspect of math actually exists in the world. All our math does is model and abstract the behavior of things that do exist in the world.

#### Juma

##### Gone
So order which allows logic precedes logic, an order that logic is based on.
All that is needed to create a telephone preceded the telephone. And that is what an telephone is based on. But we still count the telephone as an invention.

Discovery (or "invention") of logic is like a child "discovering" or "inventing" English.
Please elaborate on this. It is not clear what you mean.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
All that is needed to create a telephone preceded the telephone. And that is what an telephone is based on. But we still count the telephone as an invention.

Discovery (or "invention") of logic is like a child "discovering" or "inventing" English.
Please elaborate on this. It is not clear what you mean.
I think he means that a child is immersed in a cculture that speaks English, and he will absorb the language from that context. He's claiming that by being in an orderly universe, we're immersed in logic, and the 'discovery' is only us recognizing it. Picking it up from what's around us.

But what i think a problem is, is that logic is a tool for evaluating ideas. Given assumptions about Booples and Beffles, we can evaluate statements made like 'all Beffles want to be Booples' or 'Some Booples mug Beffles, but not all Beffles are victimized by their Senators.' This works even though both populations are fictional inventions. Ideas.

But when we try to evaluate reality with logic, if our assumptions are not correct, then very elegant logic may turn out with completely hosed-up conclusions. Attempts to reason out the movements of the stars and planets with the assumption of a heliocentric universe is a good example. There was order, of a sort, but logic couldn't really get a handle on things until the minds that used it knew enough to process the data accurately.

So, if Logic is a tool for ideas, could there have been logic in the universe before anything evolved enough to have ideas?

And really, doesn't 'order' mean only that we can predict how something will behave? As opposed to chaos, which may only mean that WE don't yet understand the rules by which it behaves.
Does 'order' really exist independent of an observer?

#### Kharakov

##### Quantum Hot Dog
So order which allows logic precedes logic, an order that logic is based on. Discovery (or "invention") of logic is like a child "discovering" or "inventing" English.
Please elaborate on this. It is not clear what you mean.
I think he means that a child is immersed in a cculture that speaks English, and he will absorb the language from that context. He's claiming that by being in an orderly universe, we're immersed in logic, and the 'discovery' is only us recognizing it. Picking it up from what's around us.
Nailed it.

But what i think a problem is, is that logic is a tool for evaluating ideas. ..
So, if Logic is a tool for ideas, could there have been logic in the universe before anything evolved enough to have ideas?
You're assuming that consciousness did not precede the universe itself. You might be assuming that "space" is not consciously aware of what or who exists within it, attempting to balance the desires of all beings within it, with a conscious plan for the future of all (which includes order, and a bit of chaos).

And really, doesn't 'order' mean only that we can predict how something will behave? As opposed to chaos, which may only mean that WE don't yet understand the rules by which it behaves.
Does 'order' really exist independent of an observer?
Does chaos? Do quantum occurrences require an observer? Wouldn't both the universe, and those within it, have to exist to observe one another?

As to chaos- we can understand rules by which chaos is generated, but not be able to predict exactly what will be generated by the rules- although we can vaguely predict what will be generated.

- - - Updated - - -

Math, in all its exactness, describes very specific aspects of reality- it was not formed to describe reality, it was formed by reality itself.
Nonsense.

Math is a human creation. It is an abstraction of reality. Reality does not have numbers or derivatives or circles or straight lines. Only human math does.
Umm, human math is caused by and part of reality...

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
You're assuming that consciousness did not precede the universe itself.
An assumption which does not appear to be at odds with reality.
You might be assuming that "space" is not consciously aware of what or who exists within it, attempting to balance the desires of all beings within it, with a conscious plan for the future of all (which includes order, and a bit of chaos).
No, i'm simply unaware of any reason to think such a fantasy is in any way related to the world around us.
Does chaos?
Same as order, 'chaos' is a term we use to describe things we cannot predict. It doesn't change how the universe operates, just how well we can understand the operation.
Do quantum occurrences require an observer?
Not to my knowledge.
Wouldn't both the universe, and those within it, have to exist to observe one another?
I'd say not. But then, the universe is reality.
I thought we were talking about logic, a human invention to help try to understand the universe.
As to chaos- we can understand rules by which chaos is generated, but not be able to predict exactly what will be generated by the rules- although we can vaguely predict what will be generated.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that 'chaos' and 'order' are human labels, not traits of the universe.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
You're assuming that consciousness did not precede the universe itself. You might be assuming that "space" is not consciously aware of what or who exists within it, attempting to balance the desires of all beings within it, with a conscious plan for the future of all (which includes order, and a bit of chaos).
Actually, either way, i'm saying that 'logic' is an artifact of intelligence, not something that can exist without an intelligence. You want to posit some woo that made it before man made it, that doesn't really challenge my main point.

But i'm curious. If the Universe is self-aware, where is the universe's memory kept? Wouldn't it require several universes just to keep track of all the fiddly bits in this one?

#### Kharakov

##### Quantum Hot Dog
An assumption which does not appear to be at odds with reality.
Of course your assumption appears to be at odds with reality. You're a conscious being that assumes that other beings in reality are non-conscious, although you are made of the same self reacting (conscious) energy that the rest of the beings in reality are made of.

Hey look at that form of energy reacting to other energy! It's not conscious, but when I (a being composed of energy) react to other energy, the reaction of energy is conscious!

You are composed of energy that is connected in such a way that it forms a unit that is somewhat conscious of the way the unit should act to perpetuate its continued existence in relation to other forms of energy. There is no reason to think that forms of energy do not have some form of basic connection to one another (fundamental forces) and some degree of freedom (wave particle duality- behaving as a wave allows some choice), and some basic desires.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
An assumption which does not appear to be at odds with reality.
Of course your assumption appears to be at odds with reality. You're a conscious being that assumes that other beings in reality are non-conscious, although you are made of the same self reacting (conscious) energy that the rest of the beings in reality are made of.
No, not an assumption.
But you're stuck with your lampoon of my position and unwilling to revisit it.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
You are composed of energy that is connected in such a way that it forms a unit that is somewhat conscious of the way the unit should act to perpetuate its continued existence in relation to other forms of energy.
But i'm still curious. If all energy is self-aware, where is the energy's memory kept? Wouldn't it require several universes just to keep track of all the fiddly bits in this one?
I mean, imagine a universe that is comprised of 8 particles of matter. Each one capable of being on or off.
A memory file for each particle would require three bits just to identify which particle it's talking about. So 8x3 is 24 bits just as file headers.

If the universe exists for 1 hour, and we record the state of those particles once a second, each particles would need 13 bits (12 bits to identify the second, one bit to identify if the particle was on or off), for 3600 seconds, for 8 particles, or 374,400 bits of data.
Or 374,424 bits just to record 8 particles and their on-off status for 1 hour.
A universe of 8 bits would require the bits of 50,400 similar universes to record two hours of operation.

As time increases, or as the particles being observed increases, the need for greater and greater quantities of data storage expands at an astounding rate. it's that chess trick with the grains of wheat. We pretty quickly get to the point that the entire inventory of quantum bits in the universe isn't enough to allow the universe to identify itself, much less develop any sort of intelligence.
I mean, this is just for memory, what's left over for the actual processing?

As i understand intelligence, it requires some sort of way to learn, or store memory, and some way to process data using those memories. I just can't see that something made of energy would have access to this very necessary material just by virtue of it being energy.

But, hey, as long as you're willing to totally ignore anything like a rational analysis of your woo position, you can pretend it's a rational thing to hold.

#### Kharakov

##### Quantum Hot Dog
You're assuming that consciousness did not precede the universe itself. You might be assuming that "space" is not consciously aware of what or who exists within it, attempting to balance the desires of all beings within it, with a conscious plan for the future of all (which includes order, and a bit of chaos).
Actually, either way, i'm saying that 'logic' is an artifact of intelligence, not something that can exist without an intelligence. You want to posit some woo that made it before man made it, that doesn't really challenge my main point.
Well, it's not woo, it's logical. You're making illogical assumptions about the nature of energy, assuming that it is not conscious when it reacts, even though your reactions are the reactions of energy to other energy.
But i'm curious. If the Universe is self-aware, where is the universe's memory kept? Wouldn't it require several universes just to keep track of all the fiddly bits in this one?
You accept conservation of energy but think that energy needs another universe to track what it is doing? How does "space" keep track of what is in it and how to react? How does light travel? How does matter retain its inertia?

What moves us and forms our thoughts and experiences does not require some "thing" to "remember". Some assume that all consciousness is dependent upon "things" which are not conscious, because this is the basic, fallacious assumption some base their conclusions about reality upon. Some assume things, based on strawmen about how things should or would be if "X" existed, and make judgements based upon fallacious things that others have said. And some enjoy the fight, or the argument, and will take the lie as far as it will go, after all, it's a zoo, and someone has to play the monkey.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
Well, it's not woo, it's logical. You're making illogical assumptions about the nature of energy, assuming that it is not conscious when it reacts, even though your reactions are the reactions of energy to other energy.
No, i really don't think it's an assumption.
I drop a rock and it falls due to gravity. i don't see any fucking sign that it had to decide to react to the force of gravity, that a decision was involved.
Drop 40,000 rocks and they 'react' the same way. No sign of intelligent behavior.
But i'm curious. If the Universe is self-aware, where is the universe's memory kept? Wouldn't it require several universes just to keep track of all the fiddly bits in this one?
You accept conservation of energy but think that energy needs another universe to track what it is doing? .
Yes.
How does "space" keep track of what is in it and how to react?.
How does light travel?.
In predictable ways, not involving any sort of intelligence.
How does matter retain its inertia? .
In predictable ways, devoid of any sign of a choice.
What moves us and forms our thoughts and experiences does not require some "thing" to "remember". .
If we're going to define it as 'intelligence' or 'awareness' it will.
Some assume that all consciousness is dependent upon "things" which are not conscious, because this is the basic, fallacious assumption some base their conclusions about reality upon..
You disagree with the conclusion.
That's not actually evidence that it's fallacious.
Some assume things, based on strawmen about how things should or would be if "X" existed, and make judgements based upon fallacious things that others have said. .
You disagree =! strawman.
And some enjoy the fight, or the argument, and will take the lie as far as it will go, after all, it's a zoo, and someone has to play the monkey.
And some natter on long past the point of looking like a fool.

#### Kharakov

##### Quantum Hot Dog
As i understand intelligence, it requires some sort of way to learn, or store memory, and some way to process data using those memories. I just can't see that something made of energy would have access to this very necessary material just by virtue of it being energy.
Energy, which stores data and intelligence, and actually is intelligence, needs energy to store data and intelligence?

I don't get why energy needs energy to remember energy? You're going to have to explain how energy needs some substrate to remember the memories that energy creates and sustains.

I'm going to run to the hills, and then run through the hills.

#### Juma

##### Gone
Energy[...] is intelligence
no, it is not, not according to any definition of intelligence that I am aware of.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
As i understand intelligence, it requires some sort of way to learn, or store memory, and some way to process data using those memories. I just can't see that something made of energy would have access to this very necessary material just by virtue of it being energy.
Energy, which stores data and intelligence, and actually is intelligence, needs energy to store data and intelligence?
You were the one that mentioned: You are composed of energy that is connected in such a way that it forms a unit
Energy that forms the example of intelligence we're aware of needs matter to arrange and retain that connection, to form the intelligence. It requires matter to hold a charge that forms the bits of memory.
You don't find intelligences that aren't connected to matter in this manner. At least, you haven't offered any examples of bodiless intelligences that stand up to scrutiny.
I don't get why energy needs energy to remember energy? You're going to have to explain how energy needs some substrate to remember the memories that energy creates and sustains.
Okay.
Memory on a computer is bits of energy stored in a silicon matrix, right? 1's and 0's that can be accessed because the matter in the computer can direct the energy to react, interact, and report the results elsewhere.

Without the matter of the chip, there's no way to organize the energy into 1's and 0's.

Magnetic tapes record data by arranging the polarity of ferrous bits on the surface of the tape. Without the tape, without the iron oxide covering, then there's no way to record the fluctuations of the magnet in the write head. And the magnet only fluctuates because other matter changes the flow of electricity through the electromagnet.

Memories are charges held in neurons in our brains.

There's no way to organize pure energy into patterns to store data. This would apply to memories and to an active consciousness. No way to have 1's and 0's and no way to process 1's and 0's. Without some sort of substrate, energy cannot be conscious.

A CD might store 700 Megabits of data.
The beam of the laser that writes to the CD can be on or off. One bit. That's all. And that still requires the physical equipment to generate the beam. Take that away and you don't even have that bit.

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#### Kharakov

##### Quantum Hot Dog
Energy, which stores data and intelligence, and actually is intelligence, needs energy to store data and intelligence?
no, it is not, not according to any definition of intelligence that I am aware of.
Oh, so your intelligence is not energy, although the rest of everything in existence is made of it? What are you, some magical being or something?

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
no, it is not, not according to any definition of intelligence that I am aware of.
Oh, so your intelligence is not energy, although the rest of everything in existence is made of it? What are you, some magical being or something?
Could you please define 'intellligence,' Kharrie?

Brains use energy, but that doesn't mean brains IS energy.
Intelligence may use energy, but that doesn't mean it can be said that intelligence IS energy. Or vice versa.
Unless you have some sort of idiomatic definition that you use, here?

##### New member
Jesus supposedly can walk on water, resurrect people, and most importantly, feed a multitude of people with five loaves of bread and two fish. That's pretty much saying 2+2=5, which would pretty much be just like creating a "square circle". Yet, he cannot create a square circle? What would be so difficult about that?
Youre forgetting that Jesus is not god!

#### Kharakov

##### Quantum Hot Dog
Energy, which stores data and intelligence, and actually is intelligence, needs energy to store data and intelligence?
You were the one that mentioned: You are composed of energy that is connected in such a way that it forms a unit
Energy that forms the example of intelligence we're aware of needs matter to arrange and retain that connection, to form the intelligence.
Energy that forms all forms that we're aware of needs itself to arrange and retain the various forms (and beings) it creates.

Then again, maybe we're just lucky. Maybe I'm just reallllllly fucking lucky, winning some kind of crazy ass cosmic lottery. I've seen the there is evolution side, and the there is no it u love side.

You don't find intelligences that aren't connected to matter in this manner. At least, you haven't offered any examples of bodiless intelligences that stand up to scrutiny.
I pretty much doubt you'll find any intelligence that isn't connected to energy in some way. So what? This doesn't indicate that energy itself does not possess intelligence. The fact that it behaves in specific patterns indicate something about it, and the fact that these patterns sustain everything indicate something about it as well.

Memory on a computer is bits of energy stored in a silicon matrix, right? 1's and 0's that can be accessed because the matter in the computer can direct the energy to react, interact, and report the results elsewhere.

Without the matter of the chip, there's no way to organize the energy into 1's and 0's.
Ohh, we are totally dependent on energy behaving in specific ways for us to be able to do anything. If energy didn't behave in very specific ways, following specific patterns, we would not be able to interact with it and learn to do various things with energy. We are utterly dependent upon it following specific patterns of behavior and responding to our desires.

There's no way to organize pure energy into patterns to store data. This would apply to memories and to an active consciousness. No way to have 1's and 0's and no way to process 1's and 0's. Without some sort of substrate, energy cannot be conscious.
So matter, which is pure energy, cannot be organized into patterns to store data? What part of e=mc^2 don't you understand? What part of the de Broglie's "matter waves" don't you understand? Connect the dots... or the energy. You play too- it's not just energy, u and m/e.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, so your intelligence is not energy, although the rest of everything in existence is made of it? What are you, some magical being or something?
Could you please define 'intellligence,' Kharrie?

Brains use energy, but that doesn't mean brains IS energy.
Apparently you're not a zombie.

Mass energy equivalence. Everything comprises of energy in some form, energy forms all forms.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
You were the one that mentioned: You are composed of energy that is connected in such a way that it forms a unit
Energy that forms the example of intelligence we're aware of needs matter to arrange and retain that connection, to form the intelligence.
Energy that forms all forms that we're aware of needs itself to arrange and retain the various forms (and beings) it creates.
Well, energy needs some of that energy to be in the form of matter in order to have any sort of differentiation, which would allow it to have a memory.
Without that, it's not going to have any desires.
You don't find intelligences that aren't connected to matter in this manner. At least, you haven't offered any examples of bodiless intelligences that stand up to scrutiny.
I pretty much doubt you'll find any intelligence that isn't connected to energy in some way. So what? This doesn't indicate that energy itself does not possess intelligence.
Yes, it does, really.
Cars use gasoline.
That doesn't make it meaningful to say gasoline is cars.
It's wrong to say energy is intelligence.
The fact that it behaves in specific patterns indicate something about it, and the fact that these patterns sustain everything indicate something about it as well.
Yes, just not what you think it says.
Memory on a computer is bits of energy stored in a silicon matrix, right? 1's and 0's that can be accessed because the matter in the computer can direct the energy to react, interact, and report the results elsewhere.

Without the matter of the chip, there's no way to organize the energy into 1's and 0's.
Ohh, we are totally dependent on energy behaving in specific ways for us to be able to do anything.
stipulated.
If energy didn't behave in very specific ways, following specific patterns, we would not be able to interact with it and learn to do various things with energy. We are utterly dependent upon it following specific patterns of behavior and responding to our desires.
But that only means we can manipulate it, not that it has ingelligence.
There's no way to organize pure energy into patterns to store data. This would apply to memories and to an active consciousness. No way to have 1's and 0's and no way to process 1's and 0's. Without some sort of substrate, energy cannot be conscious.
So matter, which is pure energy, cannot be organized into patterns to store data?
Now, now. You asked why energy needs a substrate in order to store data. Energy not in the form of matter cannot store data.
Which brings us to the limits of how much matter we would need in order to store data.
For the entire universe to be intelligent would require many millions of universes to be dedicated to retaining data for our universe to have any sort of desires.
You can't have a desire without a memory.
What part of e=mc^2 don't you understand?
The amount of energy available in a quantity of matter has no bearing on its ability to store data. A 65 bit chip powered by a nuclear reaction still only has 64 bits to store data.
A lightning bolt can still only express one bit: Lightning, active on a 1.
Mass energy equivalence. Everything comprises of energy in some form, energy forms all forms.
Yes. So brains are energy. It is not logical to therefore state that energy is brains, right?
Intelligence uses energy.
It is not the same thing to say energy is intelligence.

Only a fraction of the 'energy' we are composed of is useful for storing data and retaining our personality.
Based on viewing us, it's far more logical to conclude that only a fraction of the energy in the universe even COULD be intelligent.

#### The Paul

##### Member
Shit.

It's like... Fallacy of Division: The Musical.

#### WAB

##### Veteran Member
Actually, either way, i'm saying that 'logic' is an artifact of intelligence, not something that can exist without an intelligence. You want to posit some woo that made it before man made it, that doesn't really challenge my main point.
Well, it's not woo, it's logical. You're making illogical assumptions about the nature of energy, assuming that it is not conscious when it reacts, even though your reactions are the reactions of energy to other energy.
But i'm curious. If the Universe is self-aware, where is the universe's memory kept? Wouldn't it require several universes just to keep track of all the fiddly bits in this one?
You accept conservation of energy but think that energy needs another universe to track what it is doing? How does "space" keep track of what is in it and how to react? How does light travel? How does matter retain its inertia?

What moves us and forms our thoughts and experiences does not require some "thing" to "remember". Some assume that all consciousness is dependent upon "things" which are not conscious, because this is the basic, fallacious assumption some base their conclusions about reality upon. Some assume things, based on strawmen about how things should or would be if "X" existed, and make judgements based upon fallacious things that others have said. And some enjoy the fight, or the argument, and will take the lie as far as it will go, after all, it's a zoo, and someone has to play the monkey.

Bingo! I'd rep this post but I have to 'spread it around more' first.

#### WAB

##### Veteran Member
How do we know for sure that God can't create a square circle? Has anyone flown into the Empyrean to check?

I'm getting a signal...it's coming, hold on...yes...I see it...I see it now...

Yup, there it is! God's got a square circle in storage. Plato has the only key to that compartment.

#### Tom Sawyer

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Why are we still giving Plato keys? Ever since he left the dinosaur cage on the Arc open and they got out and forced Noah to shoot them to protect the tigers, I thought we weren't letting him have any more.

#### Kharakov

##### Quantum Hot Dog
Energy that forms all forms that we're aware of needs itself to arrange and retain the various forms (and beings) it creates.
Well, energy needs some of that energy to be in the form of matter in order to have any sort of differentiation, which would allow it to have a memory.
You mean like how space knows the energy that is within it and reacts to it accordingly?

This doesn't indicate that energy itself does not possess intelligence.
Yes, it does, really.
Cars use gasoline.
That doesn't make it meaningful to say gasoline is cars.
Yeah. 2 forms of energy.
It's wrong to say energy is intelligence.
You're right. It is more than simple intelligence. It is all possible forms, and then some.
But that only means we can manipulate it, not that it has ingelligence.
Yeah. Except for the fact that it doesn't have to act in specific ways if it doesn't want to be supportive.
You asked why energy needs a substrate in order to store data. Energy without matter cannot store data.
Which brings us to the limits of how much matter we would need in order to store data.
We are dependent on energy to store data WE desire to store. Energy is not dependent upon us to store information.
Based on viewing us, it's far more logical to conclude that only a fraction of the energy in the universe even COULD be intelligent.
Us?

We don't know how fun it is to be in the form of a proton, atom, or whatever. And it's intelligent to do what you like, as long as you aren't going to get hurt doing it.

#### WAB

##### Veteran Member
Tom,

Plato was on probation for a while, but he's okay now. There was, however, a brief altercation between him and Zero Mostel over the key to the compartment that held the Form of the Ideal human buttocks. St. Peter initially gave the key to Zero, on the condition that he would only loan the key to comic actors or insurance salesmen, NOT philosophers. Plato claimed that he had acted in lots of comedies, but had trouble finding any witnesses.

Note: It may be of interest that the Form of the Ideal human buttocks was loaned out to Jan Smithers for several years, something unprecedented, as far as I know.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
Well, energy needs some of that energy to be in the form of matter in order to have any sort of differentiation, which would allow it to have a memory.
You mean like how space knows the energy that is within it and reacts to it accordingly?
No, that's pretty much exactly NOT what i mean.
Ah, never mind. Back to your masturbation with ye.

#### Kharakov

##### Quantum Hot Dog
No, that's pretty much exactly NOT what i mean.
All right Keith, we both know what you meant.

The point is that energy can sustain memories (forms), without relying on something other than itself. You can't keep track of various memories without energy sustaining specific forms, but energy relies upon itself. That's the difference. Nothing more, nothing less.

All forms, one energy. Started 13.8 billion years ago or generated the past at the same time that it generates the future, from some unspecified point in time. Nothing more, nothing less. Consciousnesses, various forms (a rock comes to mind), all sustained and created by it. It's alive, kicking around, and its precise action is an indication of intelligence, while its steady action is an indication of its power, its unpredictable nature an indication of our subordination to it, its order an indication of its ability to preserve that which it will.

#### Juma

##### Gone
The point is that energy can sustain memories (forms), without relying on something other than itself.

No. Structure is everything. Without structure your beloved energy is jus a sea of nothing.

#### Kharakov

##### Quantum Hot Dog
The point is that energy can sustain memories (forms), without relying on something other than itself.
No. Structure is everything. Without structure your beloved energy is jus a sea of nothing.
Energy creates structure. The axioms of arithmetic do not exist independent of energy.

#### Tom Sawyer

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
No. Structure is everything. Without structure your beloved energy is jus a sea of nothing.
Energy creates structure. The axioms of arithmetic do not exist independent of energy.

Right, so what is that structure used so that space knows about and reacts to the energy within it - or whatever?

#### Kharakov

##### Quantum Hot Dog
Energy creates structure. The axioms of arithmetic do not exist independent of energy.

Right, so what is that structure used so that space knows about and reacts to the energy within it - or whatever?
Energy has an effect upon energy, whatever form it is in. Say, for example, that space is one all encompassing being made of energy. And the smaller things made of energy within it are molded by the energy that is space. We all push and pull on eachother, or engage in various behaviors, adjusting to one another as we learn how to interact.

#### Tom Sawyer

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Right, so what is that structure used so that space knows about and reacts to the energy within it - or whatever?
Energy has an effect upon energy, whatever form it is in. Say, for example, that space is one all encompassing being made of energy. And the smaller things made of energy within it are molded by the energy that is space. We all push and pull on eachother, or engage in various behaviors, adjusting to one another as we learn how to interact.

That's as divorced from an answer as you could possibly get. Could you try again?

#### Kharakov

##### Quantum Hot Dog
Energy has an effect upon energy, whatever form it is in. Say, for example, that space is one all encompassing being made of energy. And the smaller things made of energy within it are molded by the energy that is space. We all push and pull on eachother, or engage in various behaviors, adjusting to one another as we learn how to interact.

That's as divorced from an answer as you could possibly get. Could you try again?

Really, after that question, you want a coherent answer?

Seriously: Right, so what is that structure used so that space knows about and reacts to the energy within it - or whatever?