God exists but only as an idea.

[Unknown Soldier]

Many theists will tell you that the God they believe in is far beyond us humans in regard to morality, knowledge, and power. So although He may be personal in that He is concerned about us and seeks to commune with us as a person might, He is nevertheless infinitely greater than we are in His goodness, knowledge, and ability. It seems reasonable to me that any persons who follow such a God would be able to show us that that God of theirs is superhuman, but I've never seen it! The God religions preach as far as I can tell has no more goodness, knowledge, or power than people do. What God supposedly says is what any person can say, and we never see His power or goodness as anything more than what people can do.

So what I'm getting at is that the Gods of religion are nothing more than ideas in some people's heads. Yes, they may exist as such ideas but have no objective existence. Any crafty man can create a God and can sometimes get some people to believe that that God is real. That's why no God has ever said anything a man cannot say, has ever done what people cannot do, or has ever been more moral than we are.

 

[steve_bank]

Many theists will tell you that the God they believe in is far beyond us humans in regard to morality, knowledge, and power. So although He may be personal in that He is concerned about us and seeks to commune with us as a person might, He is nevertheless infinitely greater than we are in His goodness, knowledge, and ability. It seems reasonable to me that any persons who follow such a God would be able to show us that that God of theirs is superhuman, but I've never seen it! The God religions preach as far as I can tell has no more goodness, knowledge, or power than people do. What God supposedly says is what any person can say, and we never see His power or goodness as anything more than what people can do.

So what I'm getting at is that the Gods of religion are nothing more than ideas in some people's heads. Yes, they may exist as such ideas but have no objective existence. Any crafty man can create a God and can sometimes get some people to believe that that God is real. That's why no God has ever said anything a man cannot say, has ever done what people cannot do, or has ever been more moral than we are.

That is pretty much what us atheists have been saying for a long time.

That is really the end of the line, Now you are catching up to the rest of us and our thinking here on the forum.

The remaining debate is about the details of religion and how we deal with it.

 

[EricH]

So what I'm getting at is that the Gods of religion are nothing more than ideas in some people's heads. Yes, they may exist as such ideas but have no objective existence.

How long have you been a member here? It took you all this time to figure out what atheists here have been saying all along? Really?

 

[No Robots]

This is an old chestnut, best expressed by Feuerbach, wherein God is understood as man's idealized representation of himself. The counter to this is to point out that every life form necessary conceives the Absolute in terms of its own idealized representation of itself, or more precisely, that the Absolute conceives itself in infinite forms, one of which is man.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So what I'm getting at is that the Gods of religion are nothing more than ideas in some people's heads. Yes, they may exist as such ideas but have no objective existence.

How long have you been a member here? It took you all this time to figure out what atheists here have been saying all along? Really?

I don't recall anybody making this argument on this board. If somebody did, then its worth repeating.

 

[bilby]

So what I'm getting at is that the Gods of religion are nothing more than ideas in some people's heads. Yes, they may exist as such ideas but have no objective existence.

How long have you been a member here? It took you all this time to figure out what atheists here have been saying all along? Really?

I don't recall anybody making this argument on this board. If somebody did, then its worth repeating.

Further to which, it seems that water (and please forgive this controversial, but observably and inavoidably true claim) is wet.

I am frankly amazed that nobody here has ever noticed that before; If they did, then I certainly don't recall anyone saying so, or any serious discussion of the fact.

And if it has been mentioned, it's worth repeating.

Wet.

Seriously.

Why none of you noticed up until now, is beyond even my great and powerful intellect.

 

[southernhybrid]

I'm reading the book "Sapiens A Brief History of Humankind" by Yuval Noah Harari, for the second time and the author mentions that humans make up all kinds of things that aren't real, including gods, government laws, money, corporations etc. He mentions that the only real things are the natural things, like rivers, oceans, mountains etc., and of course the other animals that share the planet with us. Everything else is in our minds. He claims that we need these myths in order to maintain our society. The author is obviously a non believer since he does refer to gods and religion as myths, but he also understands that myths are important to humans. I think he makes a lot of good points when it come to myths.

Here's a quote from the book:

There are no gods in the universe, no nations, no money, no human rights, no laws and no justice outside of the common imagination of human beings. People easily acknowledge that primitive tribes cement their social order by believing in ghosts and spirits and gathering each full moon to dance together around the campfire. What we fail to appreciate is that our modern institutions function on exactly the same basis.

The way I see it is that extremist versions of any myths, regardless if they are religious myths or governmental laws, are the real problem. If people need to believe in religious myths that are used for good, I don't see a problem with that, even though I'm a strong atheist myself. I embrace humanism, another idealistic myth that contains no gods. it's just a very positive philosophy that gives guidelines as how to live in a world full of diversity. Despite loving the philosophy, I see it as a secular myth, not a part of the real world.

 

[bilby]

the author mentions that humans make up all kinds of things that aren't real, including gods, government laws, money, corporations etc. He mentions that the only real things are the natural things, like rivers, oceans, mountains etc., and of course the other animals that share the planet with us. Everything else is in our minds.

Perhaps. But systems are real, even though you can't kick them. And some of the things he lists there are systems.

Money is certainly real. Corporations are also real. They're not necessarily physical; But they do exist.

If I take my car to a Toyota service department, it's being serviced by the same company that built it. Even if every single person who worked for Toyota when it was built, no longer works there today. Even if the factory where it was built was demolished years before the service centre workshop was built.

Toyota isn't an object; It's a dynamic system of behaviours and interactions. But it's not fictional or nonexistent. It exists, and not just in our minds - I can't get the oil changed in my car by a non-existent entity.

Thinking isn't an object, either; It's a dynamic system of interactions between neurons. But thinking exists; You're doing it right now!

Fictional characters, including (but certainly not limited to) gods, are genuinely imaginary. They don't exist as either physical objects, OR as systems of interactions between physical objects.

The only way to interact with the fictional is to think about it; That's not true of non-fictional but non-physical systems, such as money, government, or corporations.

 

[EricH]

So what I'm getting at is that the Gods of religion are nothing more than ideas in some people's heads. Yes, they may exist as such ideas but have no objective existence.

How long have you been a member here? It took you all this time to figure out what atheists here have been saying all along? Really?

I don't recall anybody making this argument on this board. If somebody did, then its worth repeating.

You haven't seen anyone on IIDB state the opinion that gods are not real and have no objective existence outside the human imagination? Is that really the hill you want to die on? Or is this just another float in your never-ending parade of bad behavior in trying to play out your passive aggressive complex concerning religion and atheists in public?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So what I'm getting at is that the Gods of religion are nothing more than ideas in some people's heads. Yes, they may exist as such ideas but have no objective existence.

How long have you been a member here? It took you all this time to figure out what atheists here have been saying all along? Really?

I don't recall anybody making this argument on this board. If somebody did, then its worth repeating.

You haven't seen anyone on IIDB state the opinion that gods are not real and have no objective existence outside the human imagination? Is that really the hill you want to die on?

Uh, well, no--I haven't seen anybody make the argument I posted in the OP. The main point I was making there was how anybody--believer or skeptic--can use basic reason to conclude whether or not a God is anything more than an idea. You skipped over that part.

Or is this just another float in your never-ending parade of bad behavior in trying to play out your passive aggressive complex concerning religion and atheists in public?

Something tells me that this question results from outrage over the group being scrutinized.

 

[pood]

So what I'm getting at is that the Gods of religion are nothing more than ideas in some people's heads. Yes, they may exist as such ideas but have no objective existence.

How long have you been a member here? It took you all this time to figure out what atheists here have been saying all along? Really?

I don't recall anybody making this argument on this board. If somebody did, then its worth repeating.

You haven't seen anyone on IIDB state the opinion that gods are not real and have no objective existence outside the human imagination? Is that really the hill you want to die on?

Uh, well, no--I haven't seen anybody make the argument I posted in the OP. The main point I was making there was how anybody--believer or skeptic--can use basic reason to conclude whether or not a God is anything more than an idea. You skipped over that part.

Or is this just another float in your never-ending parade of bad behavior in trying to play out your passive aggressive complex concerning religion and atheists in public?

Something tells me that this question results from outrage over the group being scrutinized.

Lol, something would tell you that — your own confused mind.

News flash: nobody gives a shit what you think, about anything.

 

[southernhybrid]

the author mentions that humans make up all kinds of things that aren't real, including gods, government laws, money, corporations etc. He mentions that the only real things are the natural things, like rivers, oceans, mountains etc., and of course the other animals that share the planet with us. Everything else is in our minds.

Perhaps. But systems are real, even though you can't kick them. And some of the things he lists there are systems.

Money is certainly real. Corporations are also real. They're not necessarily physical; But they do exist.

If I take my car to a Toyota service department, it's being serviced by the same company that built it. Even if every single person who worked for Toyota when it was built, no longer works there today. Even if the factory where it was built was demolished years before the service centre workshop was built.

Toyota isn't an object; It's a dynamic system of behaviours and interactions. But it's not fictional or nonexistent. It exists, and not just in our minds - I can't get the oil changed in my car by a non-existent entity.

Thinking isn't an object, either; It's a dynamic system of interactions between neurons. But thinking exists; You're doing it right now!

Fictional characters, including (but certainly not limited to) gods, are genuinely imaginary. They don't exist as either physical objects, OR as systems of interactions between physical objects.

The only way to interact with the fictional is to think about it; That's not true of non-fictional but non-physical systems, such as money, government, or corporations.

I get what you're saying, but I think he's looking at it from a very different perspective than you are. In other words, all of these things that humans have invented, don't exist in the natural world. Money might seem real, but is it really? it's only real because we humans have decided it's real and it has value. His perspective is an interesting one, for sure. All of these things that we believe are all based on human imagination, so from his perspective they are all myths, but we need these human fabrications to be able to coexist in large numbers. I get what he's saying, but maybe you have to read the book to understand his perspective. He's not saying these things don't exist. It's more like he's saying they only exist because human imagination has created them, and without humans agreeing to accept these things as "true", they wouldn't exist, just like gods exist in the minds of humans and without humans, these gods, money, laws etc. wouldn't exist. Something like that. Not worth arguing about.

 

[EricH]

Uh, well, no--I haven't seen anybody make the argument I posted in the OP. The main point I was making there was how anybody--believer or skeptic--can use basic reason to conclude whether or not a God is anything more than an idea. You skipped over that part

Because nobody has ever hypothesized that humans create gods in their own image. Nobody, certainly nobody on these forums. And then you ask why I don't take you at face value.

There is nothing remotely original or even mildly thought provoking in your original post. Nothing. It is the same banal swill that apparently passes for intelligent discourse in your mind. A swill that you dredge into some bizarre attack on atheists by page 2.

 

[bilby]

In other words, all of these things that humans have invented, don't exist in the natural world.

The distinction between "natural" and "artificial" is itself a completely artificial, and largely valueless, concept.

 

[bilby]

Money might seem real, but is it really?

Yes. Yes it is.

it's only real because we humans have decided it's real and it has value.

Yes. Like numbers. Or colours. Or musical notes.

All intangible; All artificial; All nevertheless real.

 

[bilby]

All of these things that we believe are all based on human imagination, so from his perspective they are all myths, but we need these human fabrications to be able to coexist in large numbers.

Which makes them not myths; The dividing line between myth and reality isn't the dividing line between the material and the immaterial; It's the dividing line between the needed and the unneeded; The useful and the useless; The valuable and the valueless.

 

[southernhybrid]

Money might seem real, but is it really?

Yes. Yes it is.

it's only real because we humans have decided it's real and it has value.

Yes. Like numbers. Or colours. Or musical notes.

All intangible; All artificial; All nevertheless real.

All real myths.

 

[bilby]

Money might seem real, but is it really?

Yes. Yes it is.

it's only real because we humans have decided it's real and it has value.

Yes. Like numbers. Or colours. Or musical notes.

All intangible; All artificial; All nevertheless real.

All real myths.

Yes. Unlike fake myths, such as Jane Eyre, Thor, Hercules, Sherlock Holmes, or Jehova.

If all human knowledge were somehow destroyed, and we had to start from scratch living a paeleolithic existence, we would eventually re-invent money, numbers, colours and music. But not one of the fictional characters I listed above would return.

We would probably have gods, and certainly have storybook characters. But they wouldn't be much like the ones we have now.

 

[steve_bank]

Not just here, across all his threads his view is that everybody else is ignorant. From math to logic to religion.

My first impression was he lacks experience and social contact with other people. The result being he goes by social media.

It is hard to be original about anything these days. There are historical antecedents for most concepts and views.

 

[bilby]

It is hard to be original about anything these days.

Sergio Leone said that back in 1987.