God strikes dead liberal Christian

[Politesse]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/reli...xjZFGxuoI2warnsDy6ElKNgPEL93xsvkDEszJ7s4eKels

Sad. She started out an evangelical, but then switched to being a liberal Christian. She condemned evangelical support for Trump. So god killed her. Bastard.

SLD

I can't seem to open the comments, but i would be completely unsurprised if there were people taking the opportunity to express that exact opinion. That she 'got what was coming.'

I wonder, though, if she really 'switched' to being liberal, or if she just continued forward with what she already thought Jesus was talking about when he said 'love' all those times.

Rachel Held Evans never identified as a liberal. A progressive, yes. And she did cease identifying as Evangelical toward the end of her life, responding to the openly hypocritical embrace of Donald Trump by that community, but she never rejected her roots as she understood them, or Evangelicalism as she supposed it should and could be. Sin, grace, redemption, and prayer are at the heart of Evangelical philosophy, and though she took very different social positions than many of her peers, those cornerstones were still at the heart of the gospel she preached. She was trying to save the very best of the tradition she was raised in, not erase or refute it.

 

[skepticalbip]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/reli...xjZFGxuoI2warnsDy6ElKNgPEL93xsvkDEszJ7s4eKels

Sad. She started out an evangelical, but then switched to being a liberal Christian. She condemned evangelical support for Trump. So god killed her. Bastard.

SLD

I can't seem to open the comments, but i would be completely unsurprised if there were people taking the opportunity to express that exact opinion. That she 'got what was coming.'

I wonder, though, if she really 'switched' to being liberal, or if she just continued forward with what she already thought Jesus was talking about when he said 'love' all those times.

Rachel Held Evans never identified as a liberal. A progressive, yes. And she did cease identifying as Evangelical toward the end of her life, responding to the openly hypocritical embrace of Donald Trump by that community, but she never rejected her roots as she understood them, or Evangelicalism as she supposed it should and could be. Sin, grace, redemption, and prayer are at the heart of Evangelical philosophy, and though she took very different social positions than many of her peers, those cornerstones were still at the heart of the gospel she preached. She was trying to save the very best of the tradition she was raised in, not erase or refute it.

From the outside, it appears that the current big driving issue for evangelicals is abortion. The fact that Trump wants to limit availability and the Democrat candidates want expansion even into third term abortions would mean that the evangelicals should support Trump. How this is seen as hypocritical is beyond me.

 

[Politesse]

Rachel Held Evans never identified as a liberal. A progressive, yes. And she did cease identifying as Evangelical toward the end of her life, responding to the openly hypocritical embrace of Donald Trump by that community, but she never rejected her roots as she understood them, or Evangelicalism as she supposed it should and could be. Sin, grace, redemption, and prayer are at the heart of Evangelical philosophy, and though she took very different social positions than many of her peers, those cornerstones were still at the heart of the gospel she preached. She was trying to save the very best of the tradition she was raised in, not erase or refute it.

From the outside, it appears that the current big driving issue for evangelicals is abortion. The fact that Trump wants to limit availability and the Democrat candidates want expansion even into third term abortions would mean that they should support Trump. How this is seen as hypocritical is beyond me.

Because he otherwise lives his life in blatant opposition to Evangelical principles, and treats Christ's teachings with undisguised contempt. Ignoring the camel to get the needle, or the plank to get at the speck, is the very definition of hypocrisy as Jesus taught it and the early evangelical preachers affirmed.

 

[skepticalbip]

Because he otherwise lives his life in blatant opposition to Evangelical principles, and treats Christ's teachings with blatant contempt. Ignoring the camel to get the needle, or the plank to get at the speck, is the very definition of hypocrisy as Jesus taught it and the early evangelical preschers affirmed.

In the real world people understand priorities. Currently, the abortion issue is the highest priority issue for evangelicals. If people refused to vote for anyone who did anything they disagreed with then they would never vote.

 

[Politesse]

Because he otherwise lives his life in blatant opposition to Evangelical principles, and treats Christ's teachings with blatant contempt. Ignoring the camel to get the needle, or the plank to get at the speck, is the very definition of hypocrisy as Jesus taught it and the early evangelical preschers affirmed.

In the real world people understand priorities. Currently, the abortion issue is the highest priority issue for evangelicals. If people refused to vote for anyone who did anything they disagreed with then they would never vote.

You can strategically vote however you like, buddy. You can even call yourself an Evangelical while you do it, no one can stop you. But if you're unembarrassed to be found pissing at the foot of cross while also singing praises to the man hanging on it, you're a hypocrite. By the very standards he set, and that you accepted when you asked him into your heart to initiate your second birth. Nor is anyone obliged to avoid calling you out on it. Trst me, Evangelicals have never been typified by shyness in calling others out on their sins.

 

[skepticalbip]

Because he otherwise lives his life in blatant opposition to Evangelical principles, and treats Christ's teachings with blatant contempt. Ignoring the camel to get the needle, or the plank to get at the speck, is the very definition of hypocrisy as Jesus taught it and the early evangelical preschers affirmed.

In the real world people understand priorities. Currently, the abortion issue is the highest priority issue for evangelicals. If people refused to vote for anyone who did anything they disagreed with then they would never vote.

You can strategically vote however you like, buddy. You can even call yourself an Evangelical while you do it, no one can stop you. But if you're pissing at the foot of of cross while also singing praises to the man hanging on it, you're a hypocrite. By the very standards he set, and that you accepted when you asked him into your heart to initiate your second birth.

WTF? Are you calling me an evangelical or even a rabid Trump supporter? I am only recognizing what the evangelicals are saying. For them, it is worth saving thousands and thousands of lives even if it is at the cost of electing someone who is not an evangelical or even a 'good Christian'. Life is trade-offs. Even evangelicals recognize this. There are no 'good Christians' running.

 

[Politesse]

You can strategically vote however you like, buddy. You can even call yourself an Evangelical while you do it, no one can stop you. But if you're pissing at the foot of of cross while also singing praises to the man hanging on it, you're a hypocrite. By the very standards he set, and that you accepted when you asked him into your heart to initiate your second birth.

WTF? Are you calling me an evangelical or even a rabid Trump supporter? I am only recognizing what the evangelicals are saying. For them, it is worth saving thousands and thousands of lives even if it is at the cost of electing someone who is not an evangelical. Life is trade-offs. Even evangelicals recognize this.

Yes they do. And Rachel thought they were hypocrites who had prostituted their voting franchise in exchange for power. Both of these things can be true at the same time.

 

[skepticalbip]

If an evangelical votes then the only choice they have is people who are not 'good Christians'. They do have priorities so they vote for the one they think will address their priority.

 

[Politesse]

If an evangelical votes then the only choice they have is people who are not 'good Christians'. They do have priorities so they vote for the one they think will address their priority.

And she disagreed with their priorities. Again, needles and camels, planks and specks.

 

[skepticalbip]

If an evangelical votes then the only choice they have is people who are not 'good Christians'. They do have priorities so they vote for the one they think will address their priority.

And she disagreed with their priorities. Again, needles and camels, planks and specks.

She can certainly disagree but the only way they could vote and not be hypocrites in her eyes would be if there were evangelical running for office they could vote for. Otherwise, by her argument, they would have to give up their franchise to vote.

And the evangelicals disagree with her priorities. They think saving thousands and thousands of innocent souls is more important than rejecting someone who has had multiple divorces who is only damning himself and no one else.

 

[skepticalbip]

n m

 

[Rhea]

Apparently more people prayed for her to go away than prayed for her to recover from her illness.

This is actually one of the reasons that I despise the “I’ll pray for you” lifestyle. Because it makes a mockery of the real trauma of a death like this. Prayer doesn’t help, it never has and it never will. And so those times when they said it helped makes these times when it doesn’t into a moral judgment rather than just the unfortunate tragedy that it is.

Because you don't understand the nature of prayer:

Prayer cannot bring water to parched fields, nor mend a broken bridge, nor rebuild a ruined city; but prayer can water an arid soul, mend a broken heart, and rebuild a weakened will.

The primary purpose of prayer is not to make requests. The primary purpose is to praise, to sing, to chant. Because the essence of prayer is a song, and man cannot live without a song.

Prayer may not save us. But prayer may make us worthy of being saved

Abraham Joshua Heschel

You misunderstand me.
This is actually one of the reasons that I despise the “I’ll pray for you” lifestyle. Because it makes a mockery of the real trauma of a death like this.


When my father went into the hospital for his quad bypass, everyone prayed loudly and publicly for him (as they do)
He died.

One week later, an uncle went into the hospital for some other kind of heart surgery. Everyone prayed loudly and publicly for him (as they do).
He lived.
Everyone went on to say how he lived because of all those good people who prayed for him.

THAT makes a disgusting mockery of the man who dies the week before. It did not water an arid soul, mend a broken heart, and rebuild a weakened will. It mocked a death and it was callous and cruel.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

Because you don't understand the nature of prayer:

Prayer cannot bring water to parched fields, nor mend a broken bridge, nor rebuild a ruined city; but prayer can water an arid soul, mend a broken heart, and rebuild a weakened will.

The primary purpose of prayer is not to make requests. The primary purpose is to praise, to sing, to chant. Because the essence of prayer is a song, and man cannot live without a song.

Prayer may not save us. But prayer may make us worthy of being saved

Abraham Joshua Heschel

You misunderstand me.
This is actually one of the reasons that I despise the “I’ll pray for you” lifestyle. Because it makes a mockery of the real trauma of a death like this.


When my father went into the hospital for his quad bypass, everyone prayed loudly and publicly for him (as they do)
He died.

One week later, an uncle went into the hospital for some other kind of heart surgery. Everyone prayed loudly and publicly for him (as they do).
He lived.
Everyone went on to say how he lived because of all those good people who prayed for him.

THAT makes a disgusting mockery of the man who dies the week before. It did not water an arid soul, mend a broken heart, and rebuild a weakened will. It mocked a death and it was callous and cruel.

Again, it mocked nothing. The Purpose of prayer is not making requests, to fix this or heal this or make it rain or make it stop raining, That people see it that way are foolish, in my view. People die all of the time. Do you want death over thrown? Live forever? More to the point I never understand how some people view prayer as a giant celestial Amazon.com. I'll just order a sunny day for my outdoor event or a complete reversal of heart so diseased it required a quadruple bypass. In Judaism it is in fact prohibited to offer vain prayers. If you find out your wife is pregnant, you cannot ask God to make it a girl or a boy as that has already been decided. When you are waiting for your biopsy results, you can't ask God to make it benign, it already is or is not.

It all depends on how you view it. When there is a mass shooting, it revolts me when politicians offer thoughts and prayers. You are required to take a leap of action, not a leap of faith. Politicians should take action to prevent these things from happening, not sitting around waiting for some heavenly being to the thing they were supposed to do in the first place.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Again, it mocked nothing.

Not sure what you mean by 'it,' here.
You complain about the way the average American Christain views prayer, and their response to the success/failure rate, but seem to be intent on defending prayer in spite of that...

Their teachings are based on the part of scripture that promises anything a good Christain asks for, they will receive, as long as it's IAW God's wishes.
So, if they ask for something, and they get it, they cheerfully take that as validation. They're good Christains, and they're right in God's eyes.
If they don't get what they ask for, then they cannot accept that as INvalidation. Can't be that they aren't good enough, or that God didn't want them to ask for that thing. So their response to failed prayer, that mocks the memory of the guy who died. Because their rationalizations are to protect them, and their faith, even if it's at the cost of the memory of the dead.



Watching military chaplains pray is an education. Amateurs ask God to protect Seaman Nephew and bring him home, safe from harm. Chaplains know that we're going into danger, and cannot guarantee survival, but they spend zero time trying to prove that prayer is not, as you say, a celestial Amazon.com. Rather they ask that God protect our sailors UNLESS He has a reason to 'bring them home.' Well, fuck, what's the point of asking 'protect him unless you won't?' Except maybe to feel good about a godly universe that's indistinguishable from a chaotic mess of statistics and undirected events...

 

[Potoooooooo]

Ok, I am not trying to be mean but what made this lady so great? Wikipedia does not say much https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Held_Evans

 

[Rhea]

Because you don't understand the nature of prayer:

Prayer cannot bring water to parched fields, nor mend a broken bridge, nor rebuild a ruined city; but prayer can water an arid soul, mend a broken heart, and rebuild a weakened will.

The primary purpose of prayer is not to make requests. The primary purpose is to praise, to sing, to chant. Because the essence of prayer is a song, and man cannot live without a song.

Prayer may not save us. But prayer may make us worthy of being saved

Abraham Joshua Heschel

You misunderstand me.
This is actually one of the reasons that I despise the “I’ll pray for you” lifestyle. Because it makes a mockery of the real trauma of a death like this.


When my father went into the hospital for his quad bypass, everyone prayed loudly and publicly for him (as they do)
He died.

One week later, an uncle went into the hospital for some other kind of heart surgery. Everyone prayed loudly and publicly for him (as they do).
He lived.
Everyone went on to say how he lived because of all those good people who prayed for him.

THAT makes a disgusting mockery of the man who dies the week before. It did not water an arid soul, mend a broken heart, and rebuild a weakened will. It mocked a death and it was callous and cruel.

Again, it mocked nothing. The Purpose of prayer is not making requests, to fix this or heal this or make it rain or make it stop raining, That people see it that way are foolish, in my view. People die all of the time. Do you want death over thrown? Live forever? More to the point I never understand how some people view prayer as a giant celestial Amazon.com. I'll just order a sunny day for my outdoor event or a complete reversal of heart so diseased it required a quadruple bypass. In Judaism it is in fact prohibited to offer vain prayers. If you find out your wife is pregnant, you cannot ask God to make it a girl or a boy as that has already been decided. When you are waiting for your biopsy results, you can't ask God to make it benign, it already is or is not.

It all depends on how you view it. When there is a mass shooting, it revolts me when politicians offer thoughts and prayers. You are required to take a leap of action, not a leap of faith. Politicians should take action to prevent these things from happening, not sitting around waiting for some heavenly being to the thing they were supposed to do in the first place.

Your claim to be the sole arbiter of what prayer is for contrary to the people doing it is duly noted. I’m sure they’ll be delighted to be corrected on thus point. I’ll get right on it.

 

[Politesse]

Ok, I am not trying to be mean but what made this lady so great? Wikipedia does not say much https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Held_Evans

I don't know if she was "so great", but she was certainly well-liked by nearly everyone, and her theology struck a balance of rationality and empathy that has become rare in our time. She also died tragically young, considering. You never want to lose the good ones young.

 

[Politesse]

Again, it mocked nothing. The Purpose of prayer is not making requests, to fix this or heal this or make it rain or make it stop raining, That people see it that way are foolish, in my view. People die all of the time. Do you want death over thrown? Live forever? More to the point I never understand how some people view prayer as a giant celestial Amazon.com. I'll just order a sunny day for my outdoor event or a complete reversal of heart so diseased it required a quadruple bypass. In Judaism it is in fact prohibited to offer vain prayers. If you find out your wife is pregnant, you cannot ask God to make it a girl or a boy as that has already been decided. When you are waiting for your biopsy results, you can't ask God to make it benign, it already is or is not.

It all depends on how you view it. When there is a mass shooting, it revolts me when politicians offer thoughts and prayers. You are required to take a leap of action, not a leap of faith. Politicians should take action to prevent these things from happening, not sitting around waiting for some heavenly being to the thing they were supposed to do in the first place.

Your claim to be the sole arbiter of what prayer is for contrary to the people doing it is duly noted. I’m sure they’ll be delighted to be corrected on thus point. I’ll get right on it.

Haraayah's perspective is hardly unusual.

 

[skepticalbip]

Ok, I am not trying to be mean but what made this lady so great? Wikipedia does not say much https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Held_Evans

The best I can figure is that those who think she was great, think so because she had political views closer to their own and criticized those with political views more opposed to theirs. Politics has become a religion for many today. In the not too distant past those in the 'other party' were seen as just being wrong. With the new political religion, they are now seen as evil. For those praising her, she had seen the light and been saved, rejecting the evils of her past belief and condemning those who still hold and practice those evil beliefs.

 

[Politesse]

Ok, I am not trying to be mean but what made this lady so great? Wikipedia does not say much https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Held_Evans

The best I can figure is that those who think she was great, think so because she had political views closer to their own and criticized those with political views more opposed to theirs. Politics has become a religion for many today. In the not too distant past those in the 'other party' were seen as just being wrong. With the new political religion, they are now seen as evil. For those praising her, she had seen the light and been saved, rejecting the evils of her past belief and condemning those who still hold and practice those evil beliefs.

You clearly didn't know her. She wasn't one to "condemn" others, and did not see her adoption of progressive political projects as a conversion or rejection of her roots.