God's too great to communicate clearly with humans

[Sabine Grant]

TFT Moderation Team.

 

[Kharakov]

That's a problem for parents, but you haven't yet explained how it is relevant to a deity.

It's relevant with anyone you communicate with who doesn't possess a certain level of emotional intelligence (this includes adults). I've noticed that certain individuals react emotionally to certain topics for various reasons. So to discuss these topics rationally with them, they must first be made aware of their emotional over-reactions. Then they need a period of time to internalize their awareness of their emotional reactions so that they can separate their rational thought process from the emotional morass it is currently in.

Needless to say, it is a bit more complicated to reveal oneself as a deity, than it is to present oneself as a parent.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Many sociological and psychological reasons. Enough for another whole thread, one which will become immensely cluttered. I assume that some of the psychological reasons will spill out into the (uncreated) thread fairly quickly, unless people remain aware that these behaviors are being watched for.

You described a limitation in human's ability to understand communication from a deity by comparing them to infants failing to understand their parents.

The analogy was the first one that came to mind when I reread the OP. I could have said "Can people without adequate education and experience understand Einstein's field equations?" but this would have left out some information which may or may not be appropriate for all audiences.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The analogy was the first one that came to mind when I reread the OP. I could have said "Can people without adequate education and experience understand Einstein's field equations?" but this would have left out some information which may or may not be appropriate for all audiences.

And the answer is yes, they certainly can. What they need is a really, really good teacher. Someone who knows all of the exact specifics of Einstein's field equations and knows exactly how to frame and represent each of the concepts within them in a manner that the individual student can understand and appreciate.

For an omniscient person, knowing how to do that with absolute effectiveness and in a way that tailors the explanation perfectly to each and every person being taught it is as trivial a bit of knowledge as knowing how to turn a doorknob.

 

[Kharakov]

And yes. God cannot stop following natural law and have me feel comfortable at the same time.

So your comfort is important to God?

"Not really. " I was describing a limit to God's power.

Presumably more so than the comfort (or even survival) of children in sub-Saharan Africa.

Presumably not.

So how come it is all about you? What makes you so special?

You're engaged in an emotional over-reaction and made it all about me. I was describing a limit to God's power. My response does not indicate that God prefers me over everyone else.

So you don't know shit about God, but you presume to tell us nonetheless. Brilliant.

I can tell you what I know. God is not omnipotent. Human happiness and joy require a bit more than kind words.. sometimes you gotta be an asshole to make someone laugh or shock them out of their misery.

 

[Rhea]

I can tell you what I know. God is not omnipotent. Human happiness and joy require a bit more than kind words.. sometimes you gotta be an asshole to make someone laugh or shock them out of their misery.

What do you have to say that is on-topic, please?

 

[Kharakov]

The analogy was the first one that came to mind when I reread the OP. I could have said "Can people without adequate education and experience understand Einstein's field equations?" but this would have left out some information which may or may not be appropriate for all audiences.

And the answer is yes, they certainly can.

Of course the answer is yes. Being taught to understand the field equations entails being given the education to understand them. You can be taught by crappy teachers, or good teachers. And the very best teachers teach you whether or not you want to be taught, and get the point A+ (across).

For an omniscient person, knowing how to do that with absolute effectiveness and in a way that tailors the explanation perfectly to each and every person being taught it is as trivial a bit of knowledge as knowing how to turn a doorknob.

What do you mean by turn a doorknob?

 

[Rhea]

Here's what "on-topic" is:

*IF* a god is described as punishing people for failing to perfectly obey instructions, this assumes that the god expects perfect understanding of instructions.

*GIVEN THAT* How does this square with the same god being limited from perfect communication?

In other words, if you know someone speaks Russian, and you scream at them in French, how can you justify punishing them for not understanding you?

Kharkarov, do you have ANYTHING to say on this topic?


If you want to go with a god that is defined differently, you must describe and define your god so that we can discuss your god's history in punishing people for not understanding what it knows perfectly well it could not transmit comprehensively.

If you don't want to describe that AND you don't want to discuss the god that sparked the thread, please go start your own thread and pleasure yourself in it.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

And the answer is yes, they certainly can.

Of course the answer is yes. Being taught to understand the field equations entails being given the education to understand them. You can be taught by crappy teachers, or good teachers. And the very best teachers teach you whether or not you want to be taught, and get the point A+ (across).

For an omniscient person, knowing how to do that with absolute effectiveness and in a way that tailors the explanation perfectly to each and every person being taught it is as trivial a bit of knowledge as knowing how to turn a doorknob.

What do you mean by turn a doorknob?

Going to a door, reaching out your hand and turning a doorknob. The point was to use an exceedingly easy thing to know how to do to compare it with the other exceedingly difficult thing to know how to do. If a guy has infinite knowledge, then both are actually exactly as easy for him.

If he doesn't have infinite knowledge, then the reason God can't communicate clearly with people is because he's too incompetent to know how to do so.

 

[Kharakov]

What do you have to say that is on-topic, please?

Sometimes it is not pragmatic to say something true to someone at a certain point in time.
Sometimes it is pragmatic to say something true to someone when you know they will overreact because you are demonstrating something to them and others about the way they react.

Being able to communicate with someone may require them to be aware of their (and your!) tendency to over-react. When you get over your tendency to over react, someone else may not have yet gotten over their tendency to over react.

If you're really fucking smart, you make sure that you raise people who will over-react to certain things, so that you can have fun with them when they grow up a bit. They just have to know that their over-reactions have been deliberately cultivated because ultimately the pver-reactions will be awesome for various humorous and loving reasons, when the over-reactions have been guided in such a way that the over-reactor perceives them as positive for the over-reactor and those around them.

 

[Kharakov]

Going to a door, reaching out your hand and turning a doorknob. The point was to use an exceedingly easy thing to know how to do to compare it with the other exceedingly difficult thing to know how to do. If a guy has infinite knowledge, then both are actually exactly as easy for him.

I know a few dogs that have learned to turn doorknobs, much to the chagrin of certain of their families. I don't know many dogs that have been taught the Einstein field equations, and I don't know how pragmatic it would be to teach a lot of dogs the field equations, although it would certainly be funny.

If he doesn't have infinite knowledge, then the reason God can't communicate clearly with people is because he's too incompetent to know how to do so.

It's totally reasonable to blame an intelligent individual for the failure of other intelligent individuals to understand their position. Especially when you're dealing with intelligent people who lack one significant, very important skill: the ability to perceive when their emotional reaction overshadows their ability to engage in rational thought.

 

[Kharakov]

If you want to go with a god that is defined differently, you must describe and define your god so that we can discuss your god's history in punishing people for not understanding what it knows perfectly well it could not transmit comprehensively.

Some people get stuck in asshole mode and need to be shocked out of it. It isn't punishment- it's a fucking cure.

Some "negative" experiences exist as vaccinations for other experiences you will go through during your development as a being. While a baby may not enjoy their vaccination, and hate whoever they believe is in control when they receive it, this doesn't mean that the vaccination was not in the baby's best interest.

 

[Mageth]

If you want to go with a god that is defined differently, you must describe and define your god so that we can discuss your god's history in punishing people for not understanding what it knows perfectly well it could not transmit comprehensively.

Some people get stuck in asshole mode and need to be shocked out of it. It isn't punishment- it's a fucking cure.

Some "negative" experiences exist as vaccinations for other experiences you will go through during your development as a being. While a baby may not enjoy their vaccination, and hate whoever they believe is in control when they receive it, this doesn't mean that the vaccination was not in the baby's best interest.

Here we have the tired and silly old "Bad is Good!" defense of the problem of suffering. We've gone over and over and over this one...

If I could make it so that babies didn't have to suffer vaccinations, I would...would you not?

And God, what....can't do that for us? Won't? God can't or won't make it so that these supposedly curative (or preventative?) negative experiences are unnecessary?

 

[Rhea]

Some people get stuck in asshole mode and need to be shocked out of it. It isn't punishment- it's a fucking cure.

Some "negative" experiences exist as vaccinations for other experiences you will go through during your development as a being. While a baby may not enjoy their vaccination, and hate whoever they believe is in control when they receive it, this doesn't mean that the vaccination was not in the baby's best interest.

This is your answer to why Eve was punished despite not being really able to understand the rules? She was stuck in asshole mode and needed to be shocked out of it? How odd. I did not see that coming. You live in a curious universe.

Also, my kids don't hate vaccinations. From the time they were infants we knew how to communicate with them to get them through it. Obviously, I am a god. Although, if I were a real deity, I would obviously teach all parents how to do that (just as I learned how from someone who was not a deity but could communicate very well,) so that no child would have to cry over it.

Well. This has been a productive thread. We have confirmed I am a god. Day well spent, I say.

 

[Kharakov]

Here we have the tired and silly old "Bad is Good!" defense of the problem of suffering.

Where did you come up with "Bad is Good" from what I said?

If I could make it so that babies didn't have to suffer vaccinations, I would...would you not?

Definitely. I'm pretty sure anyone would.

And God, what....can't do that for us? Won't? God can't or won't make it so that these supposedly curative (or preventative?) negative experiences are unnecessary?

Sure. Some people are assholes some of the time. You need to be prepared for it. You need to be able to recognize and stop certain behaviors in yourself, primarily, and then others once you have adequate mastery of your own inner asshole.

I mean, seriously, look at what you accented. What type of emotions are you broadcasting with your words- you aren't broadcasting "I had better do my best to help God and everyone else out" you are broadcasting emotionally negative accusations, aimed at God. Try to attenuate the negativity and work on broadcasting the other side: the benefits of positive attitude, and working together to accomplish good. It's not that complicated- it just requires commitment to doing good, instead of randomly attacking beings you know little about.

 

[Rhea]

And God, what....can't do that for us? Won't? God can't or won't make it so that these supposedly curative (or preventative?) negative experiences are unnecessary?

Sure. Some people are assholes some of the time. You need to be prepared for it.

I'm getting more and more entertained as we flesh out the kind of god Kharakov believes in. Not just powerless, but a powerless asshole. And people should prepare for that.




Other people claim their belief is for a tri-omni god; omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
Kharri has proclaimed that those last two are false. Does your god even _know_ everything? Or is s/he/it flawed in that as well?
And if so, how is it even a deity? If so, WHAT is even a deity to you? (aside from the obvious example of me)

 

[Keith&Co.]

Other people claim \ their belief is for a tri-omni god

Well, there's one point in Kharrie's favor, then. His (apparently) powerless asshole deity is not inconsistent with the reality we see.

 

[Kharakov]

This is your answer to why Eve was punished despite not being really able to understand the rules?

Ok, just a second while I recover from laughing. You're talking about the part of the Old Testament mythology about God that was intended to convey the impression that a parent will kick you out of their house if you don't obey their rules. That is what you're talking about, right?

What, pray tell, does this have to do with God? AFAICT, people aren't getting kicked out of the universe for being homosexual, or anything else prohibited by the bible, people like to creep one another out, and they certainly want to creep God out (although a practical joke contest with God is not exactly practical for a human to engage in). God isn't going to punish anyone unless it will ultimately benefit all of us and tie the family together.

It's just not right when you are in a position of great power, to coerce people with threats of punishment. God cannot threaten any being and carry out the threats. God can pretend to threaten someone who is frighted of various things, with those things, in order to make them not afraid of those things. You know, show someone their fear is unfounded and something that others also go through. I'm afraid of not being rich, with a house on a hill above the ocean that has a hot tub, and good company to party with on the days I'm not running through the hills.

 

[Kharakov]

Sure. Some people are assholes some of the time. You need to be prepared for it.

I'm getting more and more entertained as we flesh out the kind of god Kharakov believes in. Not just powerless, but a powerless asshole. And people should prepare for that.

You should be frightened. A powerless asshole is in pursuit of your soul, and wants to throw you in hell for all eternity.

You'll note that I did not say God was powerless. I said God's power is limited. I did not say that God was never an asshole. Then again, all my friends are assholes some of the time. They would be boring if they weren't.

Other people claim their belief is for a tri-omni god; omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
Kharri has proclaimed that those last two are false.

Well, all 3 actually, but whatever. Omnibenevolence would include a supportive attitude to those who enjoy causing suffering to others who don't want to suffer, which, as you know, does not work out.

Does your god even _know_ everything?

Umm, how am I supposed to know what God knows?

 

[free radical]

But my curiosity was sparked reading the comments to this article about a charming boy who tried to be "Christ-like."

There was a lot of discussion about the different interpretations of the bible's words; even whether Paul was rejecting being a Pharisee or still was one. Someone said, "couldn't God just tell people the accurate interpretation and be done?" Someone replied, "like the way you can tell bacteria to go away? God can't speak our language, that's why we have to use the bible"

And I thought to myself, if it is true that God has no way to speak to humans now and make the bible (and his existence) clear without argument, then how was Eve to know it was actually bad to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge? What if she interpreted it wrong and thought it was actually okay?

Either God can communicate clearly and all Christians and Jews and Muslims should be on the same page - OR - Being Eve is no different than being the Westboro Baptist Church, the Pope, the gay minister in New Hampshire or the liberal UUer.

Can humans understand God or not?

How could humans understand something that doesn't exist?
Bible says God made humans in His Image,,if that was corect we could all communicate with God..and clearly understand it,,
All gods are just invention of primitive ancient simpletons ,,time to put all religions away..
www.godchecker.com

 

[Kharakov]

Khaos rules.