Going to jail for not paying alimony?

[RVonse]

I don't see how raising a child on your own, that took two people to make, qualifies as a 'lifestyle'.

The woman in this case does not have any minor children. The support is all for her, not any children. And if you get tens of thousands of dollars per month and have all this free time because you don't have to work for it, I would call it a lifestyle.

Why would "a man [be] forced to pay $2k in combined alimony and child support to his ex while only making $3k after tax", if there are no minor children?

Or are you suffering the same selective amnesia as Loren, and hoping that I won't notice that you have reverted to talking about something else (perhaps more on-topic, which perhaps you should have stuck to to begin with), after I called you on the stupidity of what you were saying when I quoted your derail?

Since I wrote the OP I will attempt to clarify the direction I was going.

It's not about child support. In fact, it isn't even really about alimony or women who seem to have too many rights today.

Its about going to jail over a civil domestic issue. That just seems like debtors prison to me. Its not like there were any children that were being abused because this was clearly alimony and not child support in the first place. It was simply a matter of a divorced ex owing money to another person who apparently has the power to put him in jail. I'm wondering how that can still occur in a civilized society.

Because to me, this is no different at all to a landlord who can decide to put a tenant in jail because the rent has not been paid. Or a mortgage lender who can do the same to a person behind on bank payment......Is it really fair for a woman to put a man in jail because he is behind with alimony??

 

[Toni]

Why would "a man [be] forced to pay $2k in combined alimony and child support to his ex while only making $3k after tax", if there are no minor children?

Or are you suffering the same selective amnesia as Loren, and hoping that I won't notice that you have reverted to talking about something else (perhaps more on-topic, which perhaps you should have stuck to to begin with), after I called you on the stupidity of what you were saying when I quoted your derail?

Since I wrote the OP I will attempt to clarify the direction I was going.

It's not about child support. In fact, it isn't even really about alimony or women who seem to have too many rights today.

Its about going to jail over a civil domestic issue. That just seems like debtors prison to me. Its not like there were any children that were being abused because this was clearly alimony and not child support in the first place. It was simply a matter of a divorced ex owing money to another person who apparently has the power to put him in jail. I'm wondering how that can still occur in a civilized society.

Because to me, this is no different at all to a landlord who can decide to put a tenant in jail because the rent has not been paid. Or a mortgage lender who can do the same to a person behind on bank payment......Is it really fair for a woman to put a man in jail because he is behind with alimony??

To be fair, SHE’S not sending him to jail. The judge/court system is. It’s sending him to jail for failing to comply with a court order.

I understand that the net effect is the same: he’s in jail.

Personally, I’ve known a number of women who were reluctant to take their ex to court for child support precisely because they wanted to avoid court expenses and him going to jail. Even if they hate the guy, they know he can’t pay child support if he loses his job because he’s in jail.

I’ve known exactly one person who revived alimony which was awarded her when her husband divorced her after decades of marriage and 4 children and the wife had become disabled. Yes, there was another woman. Yes he paid support as long as it was court mandated. Both ex husband and new wife bitterly resented every penny that the original wife received. From the dtate’s Perspective, if the ex husband did not pay support, the state would have been forced to as she was genuinely 100% disabled. No question about her level of disability or ability to find work.

 

[laughing dog]

If the reports are correct, Mr. Schneider was jailed for failing to turnover some property that was valued at $150,000. The issue was not whether he could pay the back payments. The issue was his failure to comply with a court order.

Opopnax's posts in this thread indicate that Mr. Schneider screwed up big time, because judges do not just willy-nilly order deliquent payers of alimony/child support to jail.

 

[RVonse]

If the reports are correct, Mr. Schneider was jailed for failing to turnover some property that was valued at $150,000. The issue was not whether he could pay the back payments. The issue was his failure to comply with a court order.

Opopnax's posts in this thread indicate that Mr. Schneider screwed up big time, because judges do not just willy-nilly order deliquent payers of alimony/child support to jail.

In other words, an adjudication dedicated for the special class of privileged people based on their sex!

If the credit card companies turned their civil matters into criminal proceedings after 10 months as happened here.....the jails would quickly run out of space!

In the final analysis, somebody went to jail over a squabble of money owed. That should not happen in a civilized society. There are normally better remedies (liens, etc) for a dispute over property.

 

[laughing dog]

In other words, an adjudication dedicated for the special class of privileged people based on their sex!

There is no evidence in this case that the gender of the respondent or defendant mattered. None. You have no basis in fact to make that claim.

 

[RVonse]

Laughing Dog. Have you ever in your life heard of a woman put in jail over alimony?

.....I rest my case.

 

[laughing dog]

Laughing Dog. Have you ever in your life heard of a woman put in jail over alimony?

.....I rest my case.

You base your argument on one case even though you don't have all the facts and even though Opponax pointed out all the probable steps Mr. Schneider had to purposely avoid in order to get this point. Wow.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Laughing Dog. Have you ever in your life heard of a woman put in jail over alimony?

.....I rest my case.

You base your argument on one case even though you don't have all the facts and even though Opponax pointed out all the probable steps Mr. Schneider had to purposely avoid in order to get this point. Wow.

You didn't answer RVonse's question.

You also ignored RVonse's point that this is a dispute over money and ended up with a man in jail for non-payment of that money (once court ordered). Perhaps you could post some examples of debtors defying judge's orders and not paying money as ordered, and going to jail for it? That would be a more appropriate response. That or admit RVonse has a point here.

 

[ZiprHead]

Apparently it's not as uncommon as people think.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Much better answer, and I can give some insight into what this article is writing about, as I have done this myself when working on debt collection.

I am not aware of any cases here in Canada (I can't speak for the USA) of people going to jail for not paying or refusing to pay a court ordered debt. But what happens often is that people run and hide and fail to show up and appear before a judge when ordered to do so. That is what lands them in jail. And it has nothing to do with money. The same applies to failing to appear before a judge if ordered to for any other case.

 

[laughing dog]

Laughing Dog. Have you ever in your life heard of a woman put in jail over alimony?

.....I rest my case.

You base your argument on one case even though you don't have all the facts and even though Opponax pointed out all the probable steps Mr. Schneider had to purposely avoid in order to get this point. Wow.

You didn't answer RVonse's question.

His question is pointless. There is no evidence that this judgment is gender based. Pointing to one case is not evidence.

Moreover, as Opponax pointed out in a long explanation, judges give defendants like Schneider lots of opportunities to deal with the situation. Jailing is the last option after all other options have been exhausted. Now, we don't know all the details and it is possible that Mr. Schneider has been unfairly treated. But since we don't know all the details, it is possible Mr. Schneider is getting what he deserves.

Unlike you and Rvonse, I prefer to avoid rushing to judgment and making unsubstantiated claims.

You also ignored RVonse's point that this is a dispute over money and ended up with a man in jail for non-payment of that money (once court ordered). Perhaps you could post some examples of debtors defying judge's orders and not paying money as ordered, and going to jail for it? That would be a more appropriate response. That or admit RVonse has a point here.

People go to prison for disobeying court orders involving debt payments(as Ziprhead showed) and for unpaid fines to gov't. This has been going on for years.

Why this was not a problem when poor defendants in the South get jail time for unpaid fines but suddenly becomes an issue when a well-off Trump supporting celebrity gets 5 hours of jail time for violating a court order is fascinating.

 

[Toni]

Laughing Dog. Have you ever in your life heard of a woman put in jail over alimony?

.....I rest my case.

Women get to pay alimony to men who sexually assault them:

https://www.10news.com/news/da-pushes-for-new-law-to-protect-spousal-assault-victims

Men who are sent to prison for child pornography still get alimony:

http://www.kvoa.com/story/30147298/...t-to-ex-husband-convicted-of-child-sex-crimes

https://wtvr.com/2015/02/16/battered-wife-must-pay-abuser-alimony-thats-still-the-law

Apparently in MA, 1.5-5% of those incarcerated for non-payment of child support are women:

https://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2013/3/...ghth-as-often-as-men-with-similar-violations/

But on point, not only do women go to jail for not paying, they die there, too:

https://www.opposingviews.com/categ...aid-child-support-12-days-her-sentence-guards

There's this:

https://www.opposingviews.com/categ...aid-child-support-12-days-her-sentence-guards

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why this was not a problem when poor defendants in the South get jail time for unpaid fines but suddenly becomes an issue when a well-off Trump supporting celebrity gets 5 hours of jail time for violating a court order is fascinating.

Are you sure that the bolded is happening? I am pretty sure they abolished debtors prison in your country long ago. Is that wrong? Or are the poor in the USA going to jail because they can't afford to or won't pay their debts? I am fairly sure it is about them failing to appear in court when summoned.

I chase debtors (of all wealth levels) as part of my job here in Canada and i can tell you that here all they have to do to avoid jail is show up and answer questions about their finances. We cant have anybody thrown in jail for not paying.

 

[Toni]

Why this was not a problem when poor defendants in the South get jail time for unpaid fines but suddenly becomes an issue when a well-off Trump supporting celebrity gets 5 hours of jail time for violating a court order is fascinating.

Are you sure that the bolded is happening? I am pretty sure they abolished debtors prison in your country long ago. Is that wrong? Or are the poor in the USA going to jail because they can't afford to or won't pay their debts? I am fairly sure it is about them failing to appear in court when summoned.

I chase debtors (of all wealth levels) as part of my job here in Canada and i can tell you that here all they have to do to avoid jail is show up and answer questions about their finances. We cant have anybody thrown in jail for not paying.

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2016/sep/2/poor-parents-fail-pay-child-support-go-jail/

While the threat of jail is a disincentive to skipping out on court ordered payments for those able to pay support, it is doesn't work that way for those who are unable to pay.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html

Personally, I think this is terribly wrong. On the other hand, I have zero--and I mean: ZERO sympathy for those who purposely hide income or take income in forms other than cash specifically to avoid paying court ordered child support. And I've known more than one who did just that.

Apparently, in Canada you can go to jail for failing to pay child support:

http://business.financialpost.com/p...ort-could-land-you-a-jail-sentence-case-shows

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2016/sep/2/poor-parents-fail-pay-child-support-go-jail/

“Parents who are truly destitute go to jail over and over again for child support debt simply because they’re poor,” stated Sarah Geraghty, an attorney with the Southern Center for Human Rights who represented a class of Georgia prisoners who were jailed for nonpayment of child support without legal representation. “We see many cases in which the person is released, they’re given three months to pay a large amount of money, and then if they can’t do that they’re tossed right back into county jail.”

If this is true, its scary. And it is indeed analogous to debtor prison as the article notes is outlawed (which I was right about). Nobody should be going to jail for debts they can not pay. What the SHOULD go to jail for is refusing to cooperate and attempting to hide money that they DO have. That's how it works here in Canada. People try to hide money or hide bank accounts and refuse to attend debtor exams in court to figure out where their money is if they have it. Violating that is how they end up in jail here.

 

[laughing dog]

Why this was not a problem when poor defendants in the South get jail time for unpaid fines but suddenly becomes an issue when a well-off Trump supporting celebrity gets 5 hours of jail time for violating a court order is fascinating.

Are you sure that the bolded is happening?

YES. As Toni showed in her post.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why this was not a problem when poor defendants in the South get jail time for unpaid fines but suddenly becomes an issue when a well-off Trump supporting celebrity gets 5 hours of jail time for violating a court order is fascinating.

Are you sure that the bolded is happening?

YES. As Toni showed in her post.

No she didn't. She showed it regarding child support, which takes us back to the OP. It is illegal for debts and fines not related to family law, so it should be lillegal for child support and alimony too.

 

[laughing dog]

YES. As Toni showed in her post.

No she didn't. She showed it regarding child support, which takes us back to the OP. It is illegal for debts and fines not related to family law, so it should be lillegal for child support and alimony too.

You are misinformed about the USA:

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/02/09/384968360/jail-time-for-unpaid-court-fines-and-fees-can-create-cycle-of-poverty and
https://www.prisonerresource.com/debtors-prisons/waging-war-poor-unpaid-fines-lead-jail/.

Mr. Schneider was jailed for defying a judge's order. We don't know the detail of the case - we only have his side of it.

 

[Toni]

YES. As Toni showed in her post.

No she didn't. She showed it regarding child support, which takes us back to the OP. It is illegal for debts and fines not related to family law, so it should be lillegal for child support and alimony too.

Unfortunately, it isn't in the US.

Apparently in Canada, one can go to jail for not paying support, as well.
see the link in my post above.

 

[RVonse]

Laughing Dog. Have you ever in your life heard of a woman put in jail over alimony?

.....I rest my case.

Women get to pay alimony to men who sexually assault them:

https://www.10news.com/news/da-pushes-for-new-law-to-protect-spousal-assault-victims

Men who are sent to prison for child pornography still get alimony:

http://www.kvoa.com/story/30147298/...t-to-ex-husband-convicted-of-child-sex-crimes

https://wtvr.com/2015/02/16/battered-wife-must-pay-abuser-alimony-thats-still-the-law

Apparently in MA, 1.5-5% of those incarcerated for non-payment of child support are women:

https://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2013/3/...ghth-as-often-as-men-with-similar-violations/

But on point, not only do women go to jail for not paying, they die there, too:

https://www.opposingviews.com/categ...aid-child-support-12-days-her-sentence-guards

There's this:

https://www.opposingviews.com/categ...aid-child-support-12-days-her-sentence-guards

Those were good articles to read. But none of them involved a woman being jailed for failing to pay alimony. I'm still waiting.