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GOP: Libertarians not wanted

I'm massively confused! Are you saying that anarchy uses government?
Anarchy?

Do you mean Anarchism? Because Anarchism envisions the slow elimination of government.

AFTER all illegitimate systems of power are dismantled.

Anarchists believe that the dictatorial system of power that exists in most capitalist economic institutions is illegitimate. For this system of dictatorship to prove itself legitimate it must first PROVE it is necessary. Systems of power must prove themselves legitimate, none are legitimate simply because they exist.

A legitimate dictatorial system of power might be the relationship between a parent and a small child. But it is only legitimate if the parent is looking after the best interests of the child. It is hard to think of a dictatorial system of power involving adults that is legitimate.
 
I'm massively confused! Are you saying that anarchy uses government?
Anarchy?

Do you mean Anarchism? Because Anarchism envisions the slow elimination of government.

AFTER all illegitimate systems of power are dismantled.

Anarchists believe that the dictatorial system of power that exists in most capitalist economic institutions is illegitimate. For this system of dictatorship to prove itself legitimate it must first PROVE it is necessary. Systems of power must prove themselves legitimate, none are legitimate simply because they exist.

A legitimate dictatorial system of power might be the relationship between a parent and a small child. But it is only legitimate if the parent is looking after the best interests of the child. It is hard to think of a dictatorial system of power involving adults that is legitimate.

How will all dictatorial power be eliminated? Do you mean all dictatorial power in the world? Or just the US? Does this seem like a realistic goal? And if not, why advocate for such a pipedream? Even if an anarchist government takes over, eliminates all dictatorial power over time, what guaranty is there that the anarchist dictators will give up their power?
 
Anarchy?

Do you mean Anarchism? Because Anarchism envisions the slow elimination of government.

AFTER all illegitimate systems of power are dismantled.

Anarchists believe that the dictatorial system of power that exists in most capitalist economic institutions is illegitimate. For this system of dictatorship to prove itself legitimate it must first PROVE it is necessary. Systems of power must prove themselves legitimate, none are legitimate simply because they exist.

A legitimate dictatorial system of power might be the relationship between a parent and a small child. But it is only legitimate if the parent is looking after the best interests of the child. It is hard to think of a dictatorial system of power involving adults that is legitimate.
How will all dictatorial power be eliminated? Do you mean all dictatorial power in the world? Or just the US? Does this seem like a realistic goal? And if not, why advocate for such a pipedream? Even if an anarchist government takes over, eliminates all dictatorial power over time, what guaranty is there that the anarchist dictators will give up their power?
If I knew how we could eliminate all these petty capitalist dictators I would be doing it.

They won't go away without a fight. Dictators rarely do.

The next great advance in human freedom will most likely not occur in the US first. The place where it is most likely to happen will be either Western Europe or South America. What is required first is a strong and extensive union membership. Something capitalists have been fighting for over a century, especially in the US where the capitalists are extremely violent.
 
How will all dictatorial power be eliminated? Do you mean all dictatorial power in the world? Or just the US? Does this seem like a realistic goal? And if not, why advocate for such a pipedream? Even if an anarchist government takes over, eliminates all dictatorial power over time, what guaranty is there that the anarchist dictators will give up their power?
If I knew how we could eliminate all these petty capitalist dictators I would be doing it.

They won't go away without a fight. Dictators rarely do.

The next great advance in human freedom will most likely not occur in the US first. The place where it is most likely to happen will be either Western Europe or South America. What is required first is a strong and extensive union membership. Something capitalists have been fighting for over a century, especially in the US where the capitalists are extremely violent.

I honestly don't want to create a strawman. So correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me that you are saying that the primary difference between a libertarian and an anarchist is that the Libertarian wants no government now; and the anarchist wants no government after all "dictators" are overthrown. It's primarily a timing difference?
 
If I knew how we could eliminate all these petty capitalist dictators I would be doing it.

They won't go away without a fight. Dictators rarely do.

The next great advance in human freedom will most likely not occur in the US first. The place where it is most likely to happen will be either Western Europe or South America. What is required first is a strong and extensive union membership. Something capitalists have been fighting for over a century, especially in the US where the capitalists are extremely violent.

I honestly don't want to create a strawman. So correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me that you are saying that the primary difference between a libertarian and an anarchist is that the Libertarian wants no government now; and the anarchist wants no government after all "dictators" are overthrown. It's primarily a timing difference?
Libertarians are capitalists.

They have no desire for the state to end. All they want is to limit the power of the state so the power of money can better control populations.

They have a plan for slavery, not freedom.
 
I honestly don't want to create a strawman. So correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me that you are saying that the primary difference between a libertarian and an anarchist is that the Libertarian wants no government now; and the anarchist wants no government after all "dictators" are overthrown. It's primarily a timing difference?
Libertarians are capitalists.

They have no desire for the state to end. All they want is to limit the power of the state so the power of money can better control populations.

They have a plan for slavery, not freedom.

Here's where I'm going: even if it were possible to eliminate all "dictators" (which it isn't); and if it were possible that anarchist "leaders" would voluntarily give up power after all dictators are disbatched (which is also very unlikely); after the anarchists give up their power; a power vacuum will occur, some people may choose a leader, some may decide that that they don't want to work in a collective, then all of a sudden - the "dictators will emerge again! The entire anarchist position is one contradiction after other. It will never happen. It is contrary to human behavior.
 
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Libertarians are capitalists.

They have no desire for the state to end. All they want is to limit the power of the state so the power of money can better control populations.

They have a plan for slavery, not freedom.

Here's where I'm going: even if it were possible to eliminate all "dictators" (which it isn't); and if it were possible that anarchist "leaders" would voluntarily give up power after all dictators are disbatched (which is also very unlikely); after the anarchists give up their power; a power vacuum will occur, some people may choose a leader, some may decide that that they don't want to work in a collective, then all of a sudden - the "dictators will emerge again! The entire anarchist position is one contradiction after other. It will never happen. It is contrary to human behavior.
There were no dictators in the parts of Spain controlled by the Anarchists.

In fact their slogan was "no bosses".

The dictatorships will vanish on their own once enough worker owned and controlled companies exist. They will not be able to find people so oppressed that they are willing to rent their labor to some dictator.
 
Here's where I'm going: even if it were possible to eliminate all "dictators" (which it isn't); and if it were possible that anarchist "leaders" would voluntarily give up power after all dictators are disbatched (which is also very unlikely); after the anarchists give up their power; a power vacuum will occur, some people may choose a leader, some may decide that that they don't want to work in a collective, then all of a sudden - the "dictators will emerge again! The entire anarchist position is one contradiction after other. It will never happen. It is contrary to human behavior.
There were no dictators in the parts of Spain controlled by the Anarchists.

In fact their slogan was "no bosses".

The dictatorships will vanish on their own once enough worker owned and controlled companies exist. They will not be able to find people so oppressed that they are willing to rent their labor to some dictator.

This is a circular argument. The anarchist bosses were the ones who stopped other bosses from arising!

Clearly you don't want to work for another person. How are YOU harmed if I decide that I want to rent out my labor to a boss?
 
There were no dictators in the parts of Spain controlled by the Anarchists.

In fact their slogan was "no bosses".

The dictatorships will vanish on their own once enough worker owned and controlled companies exist. They will not be able to find people so oppressed that they are willing to rent their labor to some dictator.

This is a circular argument. The anarchist bosses were the ones who stopped other bosses from arising!

Clearly you don't want to work for another person. How are YOU harmed if I decide that I want to rent out my labor to a boss?
Nobody in their right mind wants to be part of a dictatorship that steals from you.

And "no bosses" was not enforced by other bosses. It was enforced by having democratic workplaces. Everything was done democratically. There were no dictators barking out orders. That sickening aspect of capitalism.
 
This is a circular argument. The anarchist bosses were the ones who stopped other bosses from arising!

Clearly you don't want to work for another person. How are YOU harmed if I decide that I want to rent out my labor to a boss?
Nobody in their right mind wants to be part of a dictatorship that steals from you.

And "no bosses" was not enforced by other bosses. It was enforced by having democratic workplaces. Everything was done democratically. There were no dictators barking out orders. That sickening aspect of capitalism.

For the purpose of clarity: you are saying that if I am willing and openly choose to rent out my labor, that I am not in my right mind? I'm crazy? Do you see the problem with wanting a "democracy" for all people, except those who are "crazy" as defined by untermensche? What kind of democracy is that?
 
Nobody in their right mind wants to be part of a dictatorship that steals from you.

And "no bosses" was not enforced by other bosses. It was enforced by having democratic workplaces. Everything was done democratically. There were no dictators barking out orders. That sickening aspect of capitalism.

For the purpose of clarity: you are saying that if I am willing and openly choose to rent out my labor, that I am not in my right mind? I'm crazy? Do you see the problem with wanting a "democracy" for all people, except those who are "crazy" as defined by untermensche? What kind of democracy is that?
If you do it gleefully.

Only an idiot would be glad to be part of some dictatorship that stole from them.
 
What a tangent this has been. I think the last post about how the Republicans don't want any libertarian taint to their party was way back on page 15.
Do you mean Libertarian?

Because of course Republicans don't want any libertarian taint.

Republicans are not libertarians.
 
Why on earth would you assume nothing else will change, when you've just changed the game-theoretic payoff table for every decision?
All that has changed is the power structure. The purpose of business doesn't change.
Huh? The purpose of a business used to be to make money for its investors. Now its purpose is to make money for its employees.

Or are you talking about some abstract "purpose of business" in general, rather than the purpose of a particular business? If so, by what mechanism does abstract "purpose of business" influence actual people's actual business decisions?

What are these incredible changes that will take place simply because we get rid of all these petty dictators and introduce democratic control?
I already gave you one example: they'll be more resistant to hiring, resulting in much smaller companies on average. Here's another: they won't be able to attract passive investors with promises of a share of the profits so they'll find it harder to acquire capital equipment, resulting in the economy shifting away from capital-intensive production. Here's another: deciding wages by vote means the ever-present conflict of interest between the few workers with high-demand skills, the few workers with low-demand skills, and the majority with medium-demand skills will tend to be resolved in favor of the medium-demand-skill workers, resulting in stratification of the economy into high-demand-skill businesses, medium-demand-skill businesses and low-demand-skill businesses, instead of each individual business having all those different sorts of workers in-house.

The elite few at the top will have an incentive to leave for greener pastures.
There is no correlation between CEO pay and the performance of the companies they work for.

CEO pay is a game. It's the emperor's new clothes.

Getting rid of all that dead wood will save a fortune.
When I say the majority has an incentive to pay the elite few at the top a whole lot less, I'm not talking about CEOs. I'm talking about every worker who gets much higher pay than typical workers: the doctors, lawyers, forensic accountants, engineers, geologists, actuaries, pilots, air-traffic-controllers, what have you -- all the people who aren't employed in sufficient numbers to outvote a majority who see their high salaries as tempting targets.

The company will shift to doing things in a way that requires fewer top experts.
Top experts? How many companies have "top" experts?
All the top high-tech companies. But "top" compared to the whole world isn't the point; the people who are top experts compared to the other workers within the company will be incentivised to leave.

There will be need of people with expertise and if they can convince others that their expertise has special value and this is true then any good democratic body will pay them for the expertise.
If the decisions are made rationally, yes. But the experience in Spain in the 30s is that businesses in anarchist-run regions tend to be full of ideologues who feel experts should be willing to work for the same pay as everybody else.

... they'll have an incentive to reduce the pay of everyone but themselves -- to reduce the pay of suppliers, the pay of investors, the "pay" of customers (i.e. what customers receive per dollar they spend), and the pay of potential employees
How does a company pay workers less when all the other companies are paying them more?
You're assuming your conclusion as a premise -- your contention that the other companies are paying them more is precisely the point in dispute. In any event, I take it that was a response to "potential employees" being in my list. Even in the unlikely event that the other companies really do pay more there's a very easy way for a voting majority in a company to pay them less: by paying them nothing and not hiring them. (That's why I described those people as "potential" employees -- if the anarchist business actually hired them they'd have been actual employees.) I'm talking about all the folks that the business would have hired if it had been capitalist but that the workers who own the business choose not to hire. A society where the vast majority of workplaces operate on democratic principles is probably going to be a society with a very high unemployment rate at the same time as it has vast numbers of understaffed companies -- a society where a poor man who wants to work but who can bring to the table only labor and no capital gets turned away, over and over, by voting majorities of worker-owners who aren't willing to just hand him equal ownership of their own business's capital.

Why exactly are you singing the praises of dictatorship with such enthusiasm? Would the world be worth less if we got rid of all the dictators?
Why exactly are you having this conversation with me? Are you trying to persuade me? Or are you using me as a foil so you can preach to all the readers who are members of your own choir, and/or reciting your catechism to yourself to try to convince yourself to keep believing in it? You know perfectly well that I don't regard a top-down-management business as a dictatorship, since I already told you why the term doesn't apply. So for you to claim I'm singing the praises of dictatorship is just blatant reality avoidance. Assuming you're sincerely trying to persuade me, do you think telling me I'm in favor of something we both know perfectly well I'm not in favor of is likely to persuade me that you're right? Or do you think it's more likely to just persuade me that you're an idiot?

In the event that you're preaching to your choir, do you think telling them that I'm in favor of something you know perfectly well I'm not in favor of is an honorable preaching tactic?

In the event that you're trying to convince yourself by reciting a religious formula, have you considered trying freethinking for a change?

Once the person you're debating has told you why a capitalist company isn't a dictatorship, you only have two reasonable options. Either quit calling a workplace a dictatorship just for not being the anarchist workplace of your dreams, or else argue the point! Explain why I'm wrong and it really is a dictatorship even though a company boss can't make law, can't have employees shot or jailed, and can't stop his competitors from hiring them away. Simply ignoring all objections and continuing to talk as though it were an established fact that it's a dictatorship is not a reasonable option.
 
All that has changed is the power structure. The purpose of business doesn't change.
Huh? The purpose of a business used to be to make money for its investors. Now its purpose is to make money for its employees.

Or are you talking about some abstract "purpose of business" in general, rather than the purpose of a particular business? If so, by what mechanism does abstract "purpose of business" influence actual people's actual business decisions?
Of course that's what I'm talking about. The shoe manufacturer makes shoes. It doesn't matter if some dictators at the top are stealing from those at the bottom. The company still makes shoes. When the workforce becomes free and operates democratically it will still make shoes. The purpose of the business will not change.
What are these incredible changes that will take place simply because we get rid of all these petty dictators and introduce democratic control?
I already gave you one example: they'll be more resistant to hiring, resulting in much smaller companies on average.
Of course this is a positive. More companies means more innovation. It means more jobs. It means more jobs requiring skills and training. In other words it is good for workers but bad for dictators.

One of the major criticisms of modern capitalism is that it allows economic institutions to become so large they are able to have all kinds of oppressive effects. Except of course not oppressive to the dictators. The dictators become more powerful. All we have to do is look at the banks to understand how much harm they can cause. It is only whole populations, and probably the whole planet as the chemistry of it's atmosphere is played with willy nilly that will feel the oppression.
Here's another: they won't be able to attract passive investors with promises of a share of the profits so they'll find it harder to acquire capital equipment, resulting in the economy shifting away from capital-intensive production.
I don't see why there wouldn't be investing. If people could make money with money and no work they will do it. So it would be permissible to invest in companies. What would be illegal would be control of companies by investors. Dictators of another kind.
Here's another: deciding wages by vote means the ever-present conflict of interest between the few workers with high-demand skills, the few workers with low-demand skills, and the majority with medium-demand skills will tend to be resolved in favor of the medium-demand-skill workers, resulting in stratification of the economy into high-demand-skill businesses, medium-demand-skill businesses and low-demand-skill businesses, instead of each individual business having all those different sorts of workers in-house.
Again, you seem to equate democracy with greed and stupidity. But of course that is dictatorship. A democratic body will recognize that some skills are more valuable than others. But even so, when we eliminate all the dead wood, the dictatorial apparatus and all the people necessary to enforce it, the lowly janitors will make more.
When I say the majority has an incentive to pay the elite few at the top a whole lot less, I'm not talking about CEOs. I'm talking about every worker who gets much higher pay than typical workers: the doctors, lawyers, forensic accountants, engineers, geologists, actuaries, pilots, air-traffic-controllers, what have you -- all the people who aren't employed in sufficient numbers to outvote a majority who see their high salaries as tempting targets.
So when all your engineers walk out the company is dead. So any company stupid enough to not look after everyone will collapse. Just as being a dictator is a fine line. You can't simply take everything for yourself, only as much as possible, with dictatorial power.
Why exactly are you singing the praises of dictatorship with such enthusiasm? Would the world be worth less if we got rid of all the dictators?
Why exactly are you having this conversation with me? Are you trying to persuade me? Or are you using me as a foil so you can preach to all the readers who are members of your own choir, and/or reciting your catechism to yourself to try to convince yourself to keep believing in it? You know perfectly well that I don't regard a top-down-management business as a dictatorship, since I already told you why the term doesn't apply. So for you to claim I'm singing the praises of dictatorship is just blatant reality avoidance. Assuming you're sincerely trying to persuade me, do you think telling me I'm in favor of something we both know perfectly well I'm not in favor of is likely to persuade me that you're right? Or do you think it's more likely to just persuade me that you're an idiot?
You're defending the current system, which is a dictatorial system. That is how capitalist companies are organized. All power to make decisions is at the top. And those at the bottom only have the power to take it or leave it, but no power in the company they work for.
 
Anarchists believe that the dictatorial system of power that exists in most capitalist economic institutions is illegitimate. For this system of dictatorship to prove itself legitimate it must first PROVE it is necessary. Systems of power must prove themselves legitimate, none are legitimate simply because they exist.

A legitimate dictatorial system of power might be the relationship between a parent and a small child. But it is only legitimate if the parent is looking after the best interests of the child. It is hard to think of a dictatorial system of power involving adults that is legitimate.
I understand the abstract philosophical principle that you espouse here, and to a degree I embrace that concept. Power should only be granted to those who will wield it in legitimate ways.

The problem with this philosophy is not one of morals or of principles; it's a problem of pragmatics: How does one define "legitimate"? What you see as legitimate may not be the same as what I see as legitimate. There may be disagreements about legitimate use that vary from person to person, indeed from region to region. Using the majority view as the sole arbiter of legitimacy has dangers, depending on how large a footprint your majority has. If we're using worldwide as the footprint, then we're at the mercy of what the chinese and the indian people decide is a "legitimate" use of power... which may not accord with our western view at all.

Thus, establishing a functional geographic footprint for the appropriate exercise of that democracy is arbitrary. And as soon as you've introduced that first arbitrary element into your system, the system itself is no longer based on pure ideological reasoning; it devolves into an arbitrary determination of what constitutes "legitimate" power.

At the end of the day, there is no objective and unassailable way to implement your principles. Any implementation must of necessity include a degree of arbitrary assignation.
 
There were no dictators in the parts of Spain controlled by the Anarchists.

Why are those parts of spain not still anarchistic?

- - - Updated - - -

Nobody in their right mind wants to be part of a dictatorship that steals from you.
Are you honestly dictating that anyone who doesn't share your beliefs is mentally unstable?
 
Anarchists believe that the dictatorial system of power that exists in most capitalist economic institutions is illegitimate. For this system of dictatorship to prove itself legitimate it must first PROVE it is necessary. Systems of power must prove themselves legitimate, none are legitimate simply because they exist.

A legitimate dictatorial system of power might be the relationship between a parent and a small child. But it is only legitimate if the parent is looking after the best interests of the child. It is hard to think of a dictatorial system of power involving adults that is legitimate.
I understand the abstract philosophical principle that you espouse here, and to a degree I embrace that concept. Power should only be granted to those who will wield it in legitimate ways.

The problem with this philosophy is not one of morals or of principles; it's a problem of pragmatics: How does one define "legitimate"? What you see as legitimate may not be the same as what I see as legitimate. There may be disagreements about legitimate use that vary from person to person, indeed from region to region. Using the majority view as the sole arbiter of legitimacy has dangers, depending on how large a footprint your majority has. If we're using worldwide as the footprint, then we're at the mercy of what the chinese and the indian people decide is a "legitimate" use of power... which may not accord with our western view at all.

Thus, establishing a functional geographic footprint for the appropriate exercise of that democracy is arbitrary. And as soon as you've introduced that first arbitrary element into your system, the system itself is no longer based on pure ideological reasoning; it devolves into an arbitrary determination of what constitutes "legitimate" power.

At the end of the day, there is no objective and unassailable way to implement your principles. Any implementation must of necessity include a degree of arbitrary assignation.
You start with clearly illegitimate structures of power, like the dictatorships that exist in most capitalist enterprises.

There may be some power systems, like the student teacher dynamic where dictatorial power, as long as it is in the interest of the student may be permissible.
 
Why are those parts of spain not still anarchistic?
The fascists won out with the help of the US, Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and even the help of Communist Russia that tried to impose Communism into places controlled by Anarchists.
Nobody in their right mind wants to be part of a dictatorship that steals from you.
Are you honestly dictating that anyone who doesn't share your beliefs is mentally unstable?
I await the arguments showing how dictatorship is legitimate, how it is needed.

But my statement stands. If you prefer a dictatorship that steals from you to a democracy where you have a measure of control, you are not rational.
 
You start with clearly illegitimate structures of power, like the dictatorships that exist in most capitalist enterprises.
What makes a structure clearly illegitimate or clearly legitimate, other than your belief? As I have already stated, there will be differences of opinion; what is acceptable to me is clearly not acceptable to you. What makes your version of legitimacy more accurate or acceptable than mine? At some point, an arbitrary line will need to be drawn, and someone will say "This thing is legitimate and this other thing is not, because I say so".

By what reasoning have you concluded that your opinion carries more weight than the opinion of other people?

What grants you the moral authority to force your beliefs on others?
 
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